I think the carmaker's point about some players lacking match sharpness is fair, and I was going to say the same earlier. It's something we might have to live with throughout the campaign I fear.
He was the same ref as we got in the Estonia away leg, he certainly wasn't a homer that night anyway in fairness. Think he just had a bit of a bad night, the yellow cards were bizarre. They'd bother me more than the penalty concession, I can't see whether Walters clips him or not from the replays. If he does it's a penalty, if he doesn't it's not. Either way, it looked a stonewall penalty to me on first viewing so I wouldn't blame him for giving it.
I think the carmaker's point about some players lacking match sharpness is fair, and I was going to say the same earlier. It's something we might have to live with throughout the campaign I fear.
Players need to be playing regular football if they want a start. If they are stuck on the bench for their club then they need to go out on loan. MO'N needs to get that message out there.
We need to replace O'Shea and Whelan asap. McClean is nothing more than a 20 minute impact sub.
As I said last night before the game I'd have taken a point but when you are 1 nil up after 3 minutes and Serbia could implode if we went for the jugular it's disappointing when do that Irish football speciality of going into a shell.
The optimism before yesterday reminded me of the away game agin Russia at the start of the euro campaign in 2002. All the chat was we wood roll the Russians over after our super performance against Spain in the World Cup. That didn't go so well with a far better quality side and bench http://m.goal.com/s/en-ie/match/russ.../49356/lineups than we have now. A good point last night. At no point in our history have we ever routinely gone to nations like Serbia and won remember Croatia away in 1999 goal in last minute after never getting out of our half and the Croats missing a truck full ? We can get out of this group but there are goin to b a few more nights like last night to get it done
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think Walters was in a tricky position (no pun intended), the player was always likely to go down if he touched him. The player ran across Walters path as much as anything else.
Ahhhhhh he said it!!!!
Thoughts on last night's escape for anyone interested....
http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/201...s-law.html?m=1
It isn't a question of 'there was contact therefore it's a penalty' or 'he was entitled to go down because he felt a touch', no matter how many times those lines are repeated, because there has to be enough contact to cause the foul.
What usually fools a ref is the simulation, convincing him that enough contact has been made. How many times do we see refs not give a penalty because he thinks the forward is making too much of light contact? Contact is not an offense.
The ref was right there last night, in a very good position to see what transpired.
I couldn't see the offense myself, there was no trip as such with one leg being clipped against another and I thought the dive was too enthusiastic.
Similar to Robbie's penalty v Russia, but I thought his legs were clipped.
Yeah, I just can't see if there's a touch or not. If there is a touch I think it would be enough to impede him, I think the onus is on Walters to ensure he doesn't clip him given the poor tackling position he got himself into. Kostic may have exaggerated the contact but it may still have been enough to put him off his stride. I've just no idea if there actually is any contact or not so I'm happy enough to sit on the fence, but it's definitely not one I'd be too upset about.
Last edited by DeLorean; 06/09/2016 at 9:44 PM.
Really dont know how to take that game though. So many good reasons as to why we may have played poorly but then the reality of just how poorly we played at times was sobering. I agree with Pineapple Stu's comments above about blooding another generation of players.
I think that this is the real issue for discussion here by us fans in some way - what does this campaign need to deliver? I think we can all agree that our best hope is to somehow secure a play off spot. That would be a significant achievement given how difficult qualification for the WC is now. So, if that is our (admittedly probably just my) stretch target then why arent we looking at this as a transition campaign with something semi-realistic to aim for.
Keep a strong core 11 - with Coleman, Hendrick, Brady, Long and a couple of others as our regular starters - ditch the older players - like O'Shea - and older/useless peripherals who will never be our dependable starters - McShane, McGeady et al - and start bringing in the standout YOUNGER players we have from the Championship as squad players and give them squad experience and playing experience depending on the game scripts. Some mightnt work out but some definitely will.
I mentioned the need for succession planning to begin at the Euros and it didnt happen - and thats fine, understandable in the circumstances - but a "new campaign, new players" philosophy would have been nice to see. It seems we are sticking with the tried and tested in the hopes of qualifying.
I am sure the mandate O'Neill is working with from the FAI/Delaney is qualification at all costs so he may also feel he has no time or grace to blood some youth. If we were to look more strategically at this campaign and the next 2 or 3 campaigns then we should be blooding these players now and getting them ready for some, perhaps more realistically attainable, qualificaiton campaigns ahead.
with respect to the penalty, it just was not a foul from what i could see and therefore, in my opinion, shouldnt have been a penalty. The only clear contact is the dragged foot which was clipped intentionally against the foot of Walters. In other words he was almost on the deck before there was any clear contact. It was a stinker of a call but Walters did give the ref a decision to make by virtue of being so close to the attacker and perhaps that was careless. I think the ref just got fooled, and that happens a lot in the modern game, so we'll just have to get over it.
Geysir, nowhere in the rules does it say there needs to be contact. Excessive force or carelessness are the criteria as far as I can recall. We can argue all we like as if it was a trial by jury but we all know what constitutes a penalty and what doesn't. I think - but can't confirm without the scrutiny of a replay - that the Serb positioned and paced his run across Walters to ensure a clip on the heel or a push in the back. Nothing bordering on assault but enough to ensure Walters could fairly be charged with carelessness.
Separately, it's kind of telling that Walters was that deep from open play in the first place, no?
I thought the rules might be handy for this one
He carelessly charged an opponent. Then he carelessly tripped him.
As I said above I'd love to change the rules back to the way they were when i was a kid in the 90s but this is what we have today.
Last edited by backstothewall; 06/09/2016 at 11:33 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Never a penalty. Neutral opinion settles it.
But the draw is a nice result for us, not complaining like.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
He ran across Walters somewhat, rather deliberately I would say, there was not really much Walters could not to avoid a collision.
It is somewhat akin to those insurance scammers who cut in in front of you and then slam on the brakes, there is nothing you can do
because the thinking time covers more distance than the stopping distance.
Walters should put in a counter claim for whiplash.
Hopefully Shane Long will get us one back in the return leg!
Last edited by tricky_colour; 07/09/2016 at 1:37 AM.
really? I think its stretching things to suggest that what walters did constitutes "charging".
I'm not sure the rules above are any different from those years back. Interpretation maybe...
A key phrase above is "in a manner considered by the referee". So, Walters was careless in a manner considered by the referee [probably] involving contact. Sure, the player drew the foul by getting between Walters and the ball, just as Duff and Keane have done lots of times (e.g., Russia at home that time he was clipped from behind. Keane played for it and the defender was dumb enough to oblige).
He can't have run across Walters as he had possession in the first place. It was Walters who didn't get out of his way, or challenge him in a fair manner (which, penalty or not, he didn't do)
Interesting comments from Coleman (and Long to a lesser extent) here.
I never said that there has to be contact, but where there is contact, then there has to be enough in order to cause a foul.
A hand on the back is not a foul in the box, otherwise there would be 50 -100 penalties a game. A hand on the back is contact.
A hand on the back and the forward falls to the ground, the ref has to decide whether the player was pushed with enough force, was faking it or both were equal culprits.
If the ref does award a penalty to the forward, a common refrain is 'oh there was contact', or 'once a forward felt a hand he was entitled to dive'.
I don't know what Walters did because I couldn't see it, I didn't see a trip or a push or what was Walters to do, become invisible when a player turns into his path, dives and makes contact with Walter's foot 3/4 way through the dive?
But the ref was in a good position. I don't think Walter's got a yellow did he?
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