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Thread: Brexit - The End of the United Kingdom?

  1. #161
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    "Vote Leave Campaign Chief Dominic Cummings Admits Leaving The EU Could ‘Be An Error’": http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b02734df33fbc0

    Quote Originally Posted by Owen Bennett
    The brains behind the Brexit vote has admitted it might be possible that leaving the EU “will be an error” and the referendum itself was a “dumb idea”.

    Dominic Cummings, the campaign director for the official Vote Leave campaign, claimed “other things should have been tried first” before the referendum was called - suggesting he would have backed further attempts at reform.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Dya ever get the feeling that the more they delve into this now that the discussions are now on that they may balk at the whole thing and go "Soz bbz... can I haz EU back thx!"
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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    I missed this the last day:


    Quote Originally Posted by The Grauniad
    Verhofstad also suggested that after the UK exits the EU those with Irish passports in Northern Ireland should be allowed to vote in European elections across the border.

    Verhofstad said the number of European seats could be increased from the current 11 to allow for Northern Irish voters to still exercise some influence in the EU as part of any post-Brexit deal.

    The Democratic Unionists in turn said it would use its parliamentary muscle to force the government to block any moves allowing for Northern Ireland voters to elect MEPs in the Irish Republic.

    DUP MP Sir Jeffrey Donaldson told the Guardian there was “no chance” his party would accept such an arrangement after Brexit.

    Donaldson said the 10 DUP MPs at Westminster who currently shore up the minority Conservative government would insist to the prime minister that Verhostad’s proposal be rejected out of hand in Brexit negotiations.

    “His idea would be a breach of the Good Friday agreement which keeps all constitutional change within strand one of that agreement, namely only within Northern Ireland.

    “This idea would also upset the delicate constitutional balance we have worked out here and would endanger the peace process,” the Lagan Valley MP added.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...histle-remarks
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    In what way would Verhofstad's proposal to allow northern EU citizens to vote for representative MEPs contravene the GFA (as claimed by Jeffrey Donaldson)? Permitting northern EU citizens a vote wouldn't have to necessitate constitutional change, would it? If anything, it might somewhat ameliorate nationalist fears and disgruntlement. It's also exceptionally rich to hear a Brexit supporter warning of endangerment to the peace process. Irony is dead.

    I doubt parties that operate only south of the border would be too keen on Verhofstad's idea either as Sinn Féin would most likely stand to take all northern seats on offer if there was to be a unionist boycott.

    I think it'd be a positive move. If unionists want to be intransigent and opt out of things like that, let them. Their loss. As progressive unionist Sophie Long warned, they're only going to get left behind by developments and will look like fools stuck on the outside when it eventually comes to negotiating a new, agreed Ireland and they've marginalised themselves from the re-unification process so much that they won't have any influence over its direction.

    Meanwhile, Lisa O'Carroll writes in the Guardian that Dublin is streets ahead of other EU rivals as London firms plan for post-Brexit relocation: https://www.theguardian.com/business...location-plans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa O'Carroll
    In boardrooms across London, bank executives are deciding where to move tens of thousands of jobs in the event of a hard Brexit. Rival European financial centres, including Paris, Frankfurt and Luxembourg, are vying for the business – but Dublin is emerging as the most popular destination.

    Hundreds of banks, insurers, fund managers and other major City firms had until Friday to tell the Bank of England how they intend to cope in the event of a hard Brexit.

    Accountants at EY last week said 59 out of the 222 biggest financial services companies in the UK have made public statements about moving staff from Britain to the EU because of Brexit. Dublin, which is still scarred by Ireland’s financial crisis, is the top destination with 19 firms mentioning a possible move to the Irish capital.

  5. #165
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    It's also exceptionally rich to hear a Brexit supporter warning of endangerment to the peace process. Irony is dead
    It isn't. 'Threat to Peace Process' is just a cliche/ euphemism for 'Anything in NI politics I disagree with'. Extending the Augnacloy Autobahn or York Street flyover with Tory handouts doesn't threaten anyone; nor does electing another gombeen Shinner who makes Martina Anderson sound like a World stateswoman by comparison. In other words- Jeff's talking cojones, but no more than anyone else

    I doubt parties that operate only south of the border would be too keen on Verhofstad's idea either as Sinn Féin would most likely stand to take all northern seats on offer if there was to be a unionist boycott...I think it'd be a positive move
    It'd be slightly more positive with more support (ie if the Unionists, the Fianna Failers, the Blueshirts, the Labour weren't likely to blank it). It's an empty stunt.

    As progressive unionist Sophie Long
    Long has now left the UVF's political wing which I suppose makes her slightly more progressive than before. But let's see some electoral support before we give her full credit...
    Last edited by Gather round; 17/07/2017 at 11:11 AM.

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    Can anyone decipher what exactly Leo said wrong here?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0731/89...brexit-border/

    Cos what i read is a unionist being against a relatively partitioist viewpoint of our Taoiseach.
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  7. #167
    Seasoned Pro NeverFeltBetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Can anyone decipher what exactly Leo said wrong here?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0731/89...brexit-border/

    Cos what i read is a unionist being against a relatively partitioist viewpoint of our Taoiseach.
    He's a bit more forthright on the issue than may be expected I suppose, but that's about it. His general message of "This is your mess, if you want to deal with a hard border you're handling all the particulars, not us" is just very unwelcome for a DUP that presumably doesn't want more unhappiness from the border areas and would rather believe in a "Let's all make Brexit a success together!" fairy tale.
    Author of Never Felt Better (History, Film Reviews).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    In what way would Verhofstad's proposal to allow northern EU citizens to vote for representative MEPs contravene the GFA (as claimed by Jeffrey Donaldson)? Permitting northern EU citizens a vote wouldn't have to necessitate constitutional change, would it? If anything, it might somewhat ameliorate nationalist fears and disgruntlement. It's also exceptionally rich to hear a Brexit supporter warning of endangerment to the peace process. Irony is dead.

    I doubt parties that operate only south of the border would be too keen on Verhofstad's idea either as Sinn Féin would most likely stand to take all northern seats on offer if there was to be a unionist boycott.

    I think it'd be a positive move. If unionists want to be intransigent and opt out of things like that, let them. Their loss. As progressive unionist Sophie Long warned, they're only going to get left behind by developments and will look like fools stuck on the outside when it eventually comes to negotiating a new, agreed Ireland and they've marginalised themselves from the re-unification process so much that they won't have any influence over its direction.
    How would this work? Into which constituency would NI-resident voters be added? I guess they'd have to be split between the existing four constituencies, but that in itself would be very odd - people living in NI voting in the Dublin or 'South' constituencies.

    I suppose they could just use one big constituency for the whole country like most of the other EU members.
    Last edited by BelfastCrusader; 07/08/2017 at 8:28 PM.

  10. #169
    First Team backstothewall's Avatar
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    I'd assume NI would simply carry on electing 3 MEPs in a single constituency as we do now. Why reinvent the wheel?
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I'd assume NI would simply carry on electing 3 MEPs in a single constituency as we do now. Why reinvent the wheel?
    Would that be allowed? Who would administer the election? It would have to be done by postal vote surely?

    And the other constituencies would then have to reduce their MEPs by 3.

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    Banned KrisLetang's Avatar
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    Bloomberg columnist says Brexit is essentially meaningless.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articl...like-no-brexit

  13. #172
    Not Entirely Sure nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisLetang View Post
    Bloomberg columnist says Brexit is essentially meaningless.
    www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-28/brexit-is-beginning-to-look-like-no-brexit
    Nigel says Bloomberg columnist is talking out of his arse.

    Brexit is far from meaningless. Not even once did they mention the border in Ireland, which is arguably the one of the biggest things they have to consider as part of Brexit. To reiterate, it's far from meaningless.


  14. #173
    First Team backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastCrusader View Post
    Would that be allowed? Who would administer the election? It would have to be done by postal vote surely?

    And the other constituencies would then have to reduce their MEPs by 3.
    It would be allowed as long as the EU agreed to it, and i can see no reason why they wouldnt agree. French citizens living in non-EU Overseas Territories of France currently elect MEPs and they EU are already considering the population of northern Cypriots when allocating seats to Cyprus, so precidents have already been set that make this fairly straightforward and which would mean no other areas would have to loose seats.

    If Ireland was considered as a single unit as Cyprus currently is the population used for apportionment would be increased from 4.2M (currently 11 MEPs) to 6.4M. Ireland would then have a population between Denmark (who get 13 for their 5.4M people) and Bulgaria (who get 17 for their 7.7M people). 14 seems about right for 6.4M based on those figures. Even if we only got 13 it would hardly be noticed if it happened alongside a boundary review and election.

    It could be done either entirely by postal vote, polling stations could be set up in local halls, council buildings etc (in areas where councils are agreeable to the idea), or there could be some combination of the 2 systems. At a push a transit van could serve as a mobile polling station. The infrastructure is about to be put in place for presidential elections no matter what happens with Brexit so the work will have to be done in any case.
    Last edited by backstothewall; 29/08/2017 at 4:35 PM.
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    The reflections of Dutch writer Joris Luyendijk, who has lived in London for the last six years, on English society and Brexit make for interesting reading: https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/m...loathe-england

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris Luyendijk
    Ever since the referendum, friends from across the world have been enquiring whether it is true that the British have gone mad. Without those six years in London, I would have unhesitatingly said “yes.” “A temporary bout of insanity” still seems the preferred explanation in much of Europe and among many British Remainers. But years of immersion in English culture and society have convinced me that actually, the Brexit vote should instead be seen as the logical and overdue outcome of a set of English pathologies.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    'The hard-won kinship between Britain and Ireland is threatened by Brexit idiocy': https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-brexit-idiocy

    Another impressive piece by Fintan O'Toole on Brexit, there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fintan O'Toole
    What happens with the border is a vital national interest. Ireland is desperate to hear what Britain has in mind. Instead, it has been told not to worry its pretty little head about it, but trust in the reassurances of its betters. It is being placed in the position of a 1950s wife, whose husband is betting the house on a horse race while he tells her, with increasingly irritation, to stop worrying because the nag is sure to romp home.

    Behind this reckless arrogance, there is an assumption that Ireland is an eccentric little offshoot of Britain that must shut its gob and stop asking awkward questions. It is, in fact, a sovereign country with the full backing of 26 other EU member states – and how strange it is that we have reached a point where this comes as an unpleasant surprise to so many people in London.

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    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    To put Brexit in football terms; you've scored an own-goal, the manager takes you out of the game, you're not happy about it, you want to save face but your teammates ultimately don't care if you throw a tandrum, they care for the best interests of the team and not the want-away player. You become bitter of your teammates; you believe you made them the players they are today, eventhough they were in the club before you, why aren't they grateful? Your increasing flippancy and disregard is the slow realisation you are being kicked from the club and there's no come back. Sure, you said you wanted to leave, but you really didn't think it through. Your next team is undecided, but no doubt somewhere down the divisions, reminiscing of times gone by.
    Last edited by ifk101; 28/11/2017 at 10:02 AM.


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    Things could get dicey for you lads insists one writer.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...eement-ireland

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    The British education system is trundling along nicely.

    I for one can't wait to lump it!

    border1.png

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...99685611515904
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    The British education system is trundling along nicely.

    I for one can't wait to lump it!

    border1.png

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...99685611515904
    Haughty woman in red hat: "I do think that the Irish are just making trouble because they lost. It's a bit petty, isn't it really? Yeah, the southern Irish have to lump it basically. You can't always have what you want in life."

    Irony is dead. What on earth is she on about? What does she even think she's referring to when she says we "lost"? What did we "lose"?

    I was initially worried about having Fine Gael negotiating on our behalf, but the Irish government have the British government by the balls. Is it historically unprecedented? I hope they stand firm.

    The other people's offerings in that Channel 4 news clip are mostly comical and reminded me of this:



    There was a bit of sense spoken at the end of the clip, in fairness, but that woman in the red hat was just offensively ignorant on so many levels.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I'm in exactly the same place. Any attack on the staff would be totally wrong, but I'd be perfectly happy the support attacks on the infrastructure of a border, whether it was erected by the UK, EU, or ROI. I'd see a campaign of civil disobedience as inevitable and although I'm nowhere near the border to burn anything down I'll be perfectly prepared to go out of my way to cross the border at unapproved crossing etc to **** with their system if it comes to that. It is not acceptable and we will not tolerate it.
    Sinn Féin's Chris Hazzard has warned similarly given the level of discontent at the prospect of a hardening of the border: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...sinn-fein-says

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hazzard
    If we see a situation where we are going to have border customs posts or any particular type of hardware, I would think that would be something people won’t want.

    And I go even further. An awful lot of the focus has been on maybe dissident republican organisations and threats, but it is wider than that – it goes right down to a feeling of civil disobedience.

    When you talk to normal people in civic society they are very, very angry and frustrated at even the thought of a customs post going up. So I think you will see widespread distaste for any notion of a hardened border, and I mean that from civic society. That’s the strength of feeling from it.

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