France V Republic of Ireland - Sunday, 26 June 2016 - Euro 2016 Round of 16

[BonnieShels]

It was a weird feeling this morning getting up disappointed but not dejected.

The ballsiness shown by the players and management in this tournament was something that I am truly proud of and to a man the team were wonderful; as everyone else on here has said, we have a team to get behind now. I missed these days.

I wanted to come in and give my two cents re O'Neill's mistakes yesterday, but I can't, s**t happens in soccer.

COYBIG

[davidatrb]

No way id rank us behind NIR.

I wont argue too strongly against this but just on the surface it seems they shaded it (see below). Beyond results and looking more deeply at match-by-match or player-by-player performance might show a different story and maybe that is where you are coming from.

Top Group seed: Us, humiliating defeat to Belgium. Them, slim defeat to Germany (game didn't mean a lot to Germany - nor to N. Ireland too mind as they qualified and were likely to qualify anyway). 1 point to N. Ireland.

2nd Seed: Us, slim win vs Italy in a game that meant nothing to them and everything to us. Them, 2-0 win vs Ukraine. 2 points to N. Ireland.

3rd Seed: Us, draw vs Sweden in a game we could have won. Them, defeat to Poland. 1 point to Ireland.

Round of 16: Us, narrow defeat to France. Them narrow defeat to Wales. So shared that round making it 2.5 to 1.5 to N. Ireland.

I'll accept that we were on a par with them over all, or that we were even slightly better. But I don't think that you can get away with saying we were clear cut streets ahead of them or that there was "no way" that we were behind them.

Given the expectation from a team from N. Ireland I think that they had a great tournament.

[DeLorean]

It was a weird feeling this morning getting up disappointed but not dejected.

A tiny little bit of me is relieved that we can't be knocked out by England too. I know that's pretty sad. Hopefully France beat them* 3-0 or something to make us look even better.


*assuming they beat Iceland obviously, which might be a reasonably big assumption to make.

[MeathDrog]

Was kind of glad we didn't get an equaliser in the end.

Extra time would have gotten ugly IMO. We were absolutely dead on our feet. The subs didn't have the desired impact (3rd time in the 4 games). Wes had nobody but tired players to pass to and Walters was absolutely nowhere near fit.

[OwlsFan]

Crapattoni almost set Irish football back 30years. The two things us fans have, are hope and belief. Crap took away the belief, not just from the fans but from the players also. He almost destroyed our hope. But, we're Irish. Our hope can never be destroyed, even by such an imposter. When u see our team beat Germany and Bosnia and Italy, and give a PROUD passionate performance against the tournament favourites on their own patch, it makes u feel that this manager is doing things right, he is inspiring the players, he is asking them to take the game to the opponent, he is giving the correct tactical advice, he is trusting in youth!
It looks good for the future, it gives us HOPE & BELIEF! Gone is the straight jacket, gone is the impotence, gone is the inferiority complex! You may be a troll, and I may have bitten. But there isn't one genuine poster on here who can argue that we have not progressed immensely, that we have not performed unrecognisably from Crap.
We have good players, we have a manager who will give our good young players a chance, who will allow them to play and compete. And as seen today and in the tournament, and in the qualifying campaign, we can play, we can compete, WE CAN WIN!!!!!
2012 was a disaster because of one man.....2016 has made me proud again because of every man...

Lest you forget, a Trappatoni team beat France 0-1 in Paris over 90 minutes. And how did he set football back 30 years when you have a team performing like we did only a few years later? Hyperbole. He reminded us we could get to Finals. The fact that we didn't compete with three of the top teams in the world when we were there has been discussed ad nauseum.

As to the present, the campaign and the tournament will have three lasting memories to join Stuttgart, Genoa, Giant's Stadium, Holland (McAteer) and Germany (Japan/Korea): the two goals against Germany and the Brady goal against Italy. All the darkness in between is soon forgotten or at least pushed aside to the back of the brain and to have three such memories in one campaign is amazing. It is a wonderful thing to have been at those three matches and to see those goals and all in the space of a year. Surprisingly, the goal away to Germany is my highlight because it came out of no where and we were in the backyard of the world champions. The goal against Italy I couldn't savour for long because I had to immediately start thinking how do I get back for the next game and get a ticket, so angst came with it while the Long goal came at home somehow goals away from home are sweeter.

In hindsight, for yesterday's game, the subs were slow in coming on when it seemed that we had run out of steam. Hendrick (my man of the tournament) seemed bushed very early on as did McCarthy. However, I can understand why a manager would be slow to change a winning formula. We gave it our best shot but it wasn't to be. Another lead we couldn't hold but not too surprising against the tournament favourites in their own home ground. Shame but no shame.

[Real ale Madrid]

I wont argue too strongly against this but just on the surface it seems they shaded it (see below). Beyond results and looking more deeply at match-by-match or player-by-player performance might show a different story and maybe that is where you are coming from.

Top Group seed: Us, humiliating defeat to Belgium. Them, slim defeat to Germany (game didn't mean a lot to Germany - nor to N. Ireland too mind as they qualified and were likely to qualify anyway). 1 point to N. Ireland.

2nd Seed: Us, slim win vs Italy in a game that meant nothing to them and everything to us. Them, 2-0 win vs Ukraine. 2 points to N. Ireland.

3rd Seed: Us, draw vs Sweden in a game we could have won. Them, defeat to Poland. 1 point to Ireland.

Round of 16: Us, narrow defeat to France. Them narrow defeat to Wales. So shared that round making it 2.5 to 1.5 to N. Ireland.

I'll accept that we were on a par with them over all, or that we were even slightly better. But I don't think that you can get away with saying we were clear cut streets ahead of them or that there was "no way" that we were behind them.

Given the expectation from a team from N. Ireland I think that they had a great tournament.

We got 4 points they got 3. I'm not saying they didn't do well - I'm just saying you CAN'T rank them above us. That Ukraine team was the worst in the tournament. Not much in it either way - but your points system based on an arbitrary thoughts / opinion on performance is bizarre to say the least. I'm again amazed how people can just dismiss our win against Italy - could NIR have beaten them in the same situation?

[Kingdom]

It was going to end sometime, although after 30 mins I thought it might last a week or so longer.

Everything was stacked again us yesterday. The lack of a break, the injuries, the relatively small playing pool to pick from within the squad, the venue, the ticket allocation, the time of day, the relative levels of exposure both sets of players are used to, and the pressures both sets of players are used to. That was always going to be insurmountable.

I'm reluctant to castigate the Trap era as much as others have here, simply because the current manager only gets judged against his predecessor, and while looking back at the Trap era when you've valiantly been eliminated by France in their home Euro's, of course you get annoyed, but you have to think back to the absolute shambles we were before Giovanni came in. I'm not sentimental for the old b*stard or anything (I've said previously I wouldn't have extended his contract before the Euros given how poor we were generally at the end of the campaign (the away win in Estonia being the freak result, the home performance being the norm), but I appreciate that he made us somewhat competitive again (his results away from home have not been bettered by O'neill for example), and for that I'm grateful.

As for O'Neill, I'm not willing to get too jizztastic about him, because frankly I think he's not great tactically, but he sure has a knack of getting players to perform for him, and ultimately he's recorded our greatest result in the European Championships (allowing of course for a huge asterisk in terms of format).
I worry about his substitutions, and unfortunately I think he is too reactive when the pressure is on rather than proactive. Obviously that's a subjective opinion. I appreciate that he may have been hamstrung on Hendrick (and some players general fitness - McCarthy, Ward to name two) in that Hendrick was immobile for a considerable time after his 'dead' leg, yet McCarthy looked out on his feet. So I can appreciate to an extent why he waited. But to let France force the matter as much as they did isn't acceptable I believe, and I think player fatigue masks some of it to be honest. I would like to think that he could have been a bit more positive with the substitution after the sending off. I know deep down that it was probably the best course of action, but with players absolutely wrecked, to take off McCarthy and throw on another defender while we're behind just seems, defeatist. Would it have been practical to throw on Clark and switch to a back 3 of Keogh Clark and Ward or to throw on Whelan/Meyler, and have them sit just to the front of Keogh in a stopper-fashion? The final substitution not working was not his fault, nor was it Wessi's. Some of the passes he played were the correct ones, the recipients too dead on their feet to collect, or no pass being so having to force the matter.

Just so it's not seen as a case of spouting for the craic, I think either Whelan for McCarthy or Quinn fir Hendrick should have been introduced at h/t. Walters did not look fit when he came on either - which really harks back to the original squad - if he wasn't fit, he shouldn't have been there.
Credit for sticking with Murphy, I thought some of his link-play yesterday showed he deserved his spot.

This is the natural time for the management team to examine resources. The average age needs to come down, and we need to become somewhat less-reliant of a handful of players. I wouldn't take a sickle to the squad, but I do think there's an element of sh!t-or-bust for some players, and some players will (and should) wave bye-bye to the international scene.

• Prioritise the formations, and then the personnel for the respective formations.
• Sort the goalkeeping situation out
• Sort the striking situation out
• Give youth a chance

1 above. We've no right-winger, right midfielder, call it what you want. We've Walters or Long. Long is not good enough at that position, and it takes away from what we get behind defences.

2above. Retire Given - he shouldn't have been in France, and by all accounts was the back-up keeper. Retire Forde - he's given us great service the past couple of years when we were let down by others.
Give Westwood a fair craic, let him develop a rivalry with Randolph. See what shape Ian Lawlor is in for the next season, and see if he can push Elliot for the final place in the squad.
3above. Long, Walters and Murphy. we need an alternative.
4above. O'Dowda, Byrne, Duffy, Clark, Cunningham to name just a few. Get them in, and get them to gel.


This tournament has gone a long way to repairing the disconnect with the fans that has been there for quite some time - I'd say to the days of Mick Mac being sacked - even if there has been some reboots along the way. Hopefully those fans keep doing the business where we need them, in Lansdowne, so that it becomes a fortress that we need it to become.

[davidatrb]

We got 4 points they got 3. I'm not saying they didn't do well - I'm just saying you CAN'T rank them above us. That Ukraine team was the worst in the tournament. Not much in it either way - but your points system based on an arbitrary thoughts / opinion on performance is bizarre to say the least. I'm again amazed how people can just dismiss our win against Italy - could NIR have beaten them in the same situation?

Well, okay, my opinion is that if you break down the performances that NIR shaded it slightly but I'm open to other opinions. I don't think its bizarre to break down the performances match by match for comparison purposes.

I don't dismiss the Italy game. But as a stick to measure where the Irish team is against others competitively, I would put more weight on the France, Sweden and Belgium games.

Anyway, the boys did great! That was the whole point of me posting to dispute the tweet which said we were poor - but we were at least average in the overall scheme. Now freshen up with a few young lads - nothing to fear from Austria and Serbia - and Wales we know well enough. Let's stay united and get behind the team!

[Stuttgart88]

Top Group seed: Us, humiliating defeat to Belgium. Them, slim defeat to Germany (game didn't mean a lot to Germany - nor to N. Ireland too mind as they qualified and were likely to qualify anyway). 1 point to N. Ireland.

A narrow defeat was mutually beneficial and even then NI were battered in everything but the scoreline. I think Germany had more shots on target or narrowly wide in 20 minutes vs NI than we conceded in 180.

[tetsujin1979]

A narrow defeat was mutually beneficial and even then NI were battered in everything but the scoreline. I think Germany had more shots on target or narrowly wide in 20 minutes vs NI than we conceded in 180.

According to FourFourTwo, Germany had 28 shots in that game - http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone...matches/838536
Italy had five against us - http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone...matches/838541
France had 25 - http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone...matches/838546

[DeLorean]

The final substitution not working was not his fault, nor was it Wessi's. Some of the passes he played were the correct ones, the recipients too dead on their feet to collect, or no pass being so having to force the matter.

I couldn't help but feel that if McGeady came on and performed like Hoolahan did, he'd have been torn apart. I love Wessi but he was really sloppy.

[Real ale Madrid]

I couldn't help but feel that if McGeady came on and performed like Hoolahan did, he'd have been torn apart. I love Wessi but he was really sloppy.

I suppose Hoolahan gets a bit of a free pass for scoring and setting up our only 2 goals from open play in the tournament. Whereas McGeady was pretty lucky to be on the plane at all.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree McGeady was lucky but actually he impressed me in all three of his sub appearances. Even though he did little of note in two games he was one of our few players really wanting the ball and not afraid to look for it in tight spaces. That counts for a lot in a team like ours and his ability to carry the ball effortlessly through the middle led to Brady's goal.

I also thought Murphy was lucky to be on the plane. I was wrong there too, as I was wrong to seek McCarthy being dropped (even if I did raise the question about his incompatibility with Whelan).

I think I was indifferent to Meyler and Quinn - torn between querying their use while recognising their service - and although neither did anything important (or at all in Meyler's case) I'll never forget Quinn holding the ball up at the corner flag.

[tetsujin1979]

Also, McGeady got the assist on Hoolahan's assist for Brady's goal

[tetsujin1979]

I'm not on a wind up, I truly believe Traps team would of won that game.

Just my opinion, you may disagree that's fine.

By the way how many caps do you have?

you have 24 hours to provide a detailed tactical break down of how the 2012 team would beat that French side, or I'm giving you a week's suspension on principle alone
This is not a threat.

no tactical break down provided, doc on a week's break

[Stuttgart88]

Kind of wrong thread, but despite that brilliant save by De Gea just now (44 mins Italy v Spain) imagine if Randolph had let in that Italy goal, and the Croatia winner!

[CraftyToePoke]

no tactical break down provided, doc on a week's break

Trouble is it wont bother him much, he has had his goad which was all he wanted, and hadn't been seen on here for a long while, when his one trick line wasn't playable.

[DeLorean]

Kind of wrong thread, but despite that brilliant save by De Gea just now (44 mins Italy v Spain) imagine if Randolph had let in that Italy goal, and the Croatia winner!

Yep... he'd have been rightly criticised. Two very poor goals for De Gea (or any keeper) to concede.

[paul_oshea]

Still very raw for me and disappointing, so decided I'd leave it a couple of days before I posted.

I really feel we could have won this, even as tired and jaded as we looked, goals change things dramatically especially what they do for the body. I felt we could have been 2 up at half time, but there were a couple of notable things happening, one for example was we got possession and Daryl Murphy had his hands on his knees bent over not looking for the ball, this was only a few minutes before halftime. It told me a lot, and I reckon it must have too for Deschamps. His change at half time to go from a defensive approach to an old fashioned british style four four two by replacing the defensive kante was a real master stroke. O'Neill missed a trick here, and then, well, it was too late. I felt O'neill should have made the sub on 55 or so, I noticed a few players taking breathers off the ball when really they should have been keeping their strucutre and looking out. Murphy was fecked the earliest, I would have taken him off and brought on Whelan and Meyler to sit deep, and following griessman, he was running all over the place and we completely lost our structure, we looked ragged. The second thing I noticed happening after half time was Keogh(and Duffy less so) kept calling on the team to push up, they played a highline instead of sitting back. Now normally I would be the first person to advocate this but the lads were wrecked, pushing a high line was not the thing to be doing as guys didnt have the legs to cover or the pace to get back in. Iceland played a deep back line two banks, but still pushed up 2 or 3 players when they had the ball. It worked a treat. We got it completely wrong I feel given the exertion applied already by the players. Had we had better game management I really felt we could have taken them.

The O'Shea question is a good one, I think one of Duffy or Keogh with O'Shea in the second half particularly would have made a big difference after the changes that were made, we lost a bit of structure and shape as we tired and Duffy and Keoghs inexperience caught us out. Ward got sucked in continuously, leaving loads of space outwide for that cross to griessman it felt like an age and a day to pick out the head of griessman, but keogh and Duffy were ball watching rather than man watching. 4 against 2 should never concede a goal. Deschamps really trumped O'Neill.

I think thats covered most of what has not been said already. The ref had a few bad decisions, a couple of times we should have had frees and he played advantage which is clearly not what we wanted, but I think he was aware of us wasting time and didn't want the game to keep stopping like this, even though shortly afterwards we lost the ball.

Frances body language off the ball 7-8 mins until half time was terrible, they were misplacing passes, they were not communicatnig they were doing everything but the french tempermantal shrugging the shoulders and blaming eachother. They looked completely bereft of ideas, we probably should have punished them more in that time, as rami was having a mare, and so was koescielny. They were a completely different side though in the second half.

[paul_oshea]

Overall France was great, we had a great time. I much preferred it to Poland. Poland was a dump wherever we stayed and extremely overpriced. France was ok, a bit overpriced but at least it wasn't a dump. The food was good and the drink was good. The weather could have been better. The frenchies really do love us, which is great obviously, even if we left a bit prematurely. The transport could have been better though, especially in a City like Paris. The french love a strike, even being explained to me in french that its "part of our culture". Paris is such an overrated city as well. I was pleasently surprised by Lille. Biarritz is full of pretentious surfers and posh parissiens. Bordeaux was a lovely town with some good bars and restaurants and very pleasent people.