Belgium V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 18th June 2016 - Euro 2016 Group E

[Kingdom]

Terrible stuff, yesterday. Very disappointing.

Could Randolph have done better for their second goal? The save he pulled off in the first half to palm the ball onto the cross-bar was impressive, even if it wouldn't have counted anyway, but I'd like to see Westwood given a game against Italy.

Yes I feel he should have saved it. I also feel he could have done more with the cross from Zlatan last Monday, I think it was close enough inside the 6-yd box that he could have been grasping it rather than Clark having to force the issue.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah - it's both these posts really isn't it. We can't cry hard luck because the (by far) better team won comfortably. But the missed penalty and immediate concession of the goal changed the script 1000%.

Twenty four hours later, that's a tough one to digest. I think O'Neill and co sent the team out with the wrong plan. The worst thing was the Plan B was the same plan as against Sweden. That is, there is no plan b. That's worrying. It's becoming more apparent by the game that two things have occurred here - our game plan does not allow us to compete with teams that hold on to the ball and 2) that major mistakes have been made in the squad selection. It's eerily similar to what happened with/to Trap. McGeady and Keane shouldn't be in the squad in all truth let alone our first call from the bench. As an aside, McClean looks like a clueless kid on the pitch at times. Looks really bad in the competitive games.

I really hope for a complete changing of the guard in September where youth, form and merit are the predominant selection criteria.

Pineapple Stu has been regularly alluding to something that quite a few of us on here have been saying since the Staunton days. We are light years behind most of the world and Europe in our approach to football and youth development. This will cause many many more nights of frustration for us. I think he is a little off in saying that we likely won't qualify for any tournaments for a long time but only by virtue of the fact that qualification is way easier now especially for the euros. We will never really compete again. That dream is truly over. What compounds this is the apparent satisfaction with just being there amongst a significant majority of the fan base. That is enough to stifle the calls for the change that is needed. A radical overhaul of our youth structures and coaching philosophy along with a significant investment in the domestic league as the pinnacle of football and an intentional restriction on the movement of young players to British clubs at such young ages. We need to keep 90% of our best young talent at home and invest in the league. We need control over our footballing destiny. Relying on diaspora and the British system to produce the quantity and quality needed is lazy, not sustainable and deluded. It's not an easy journey and I don't know how to even get such a movement started but it is crucial to our future even if it doesn't reap dividends for 20-30 years, it is the right thing to do.

You know I don't disagree with this but still, countries like Holland, Norway, Scotland (none qualified) and Turkey (who did but who have bombed so far) all have everything we'd only dream of.

I had a chat recently with a guy at Athletics Ireland as I'm writing an article on Irish running for my club's magazine. Despite huge numbers now participating, running is a participation culture not an excellence culture. therea re hundreds of events nationwide to enter but so many now that our best guys don't race our best guys as often as they can. At all distances our top runners aren't running the times of our 1980s runners. Even if you discount the legends like Coughlan and Treacy, at marathon level we're still 3 minutes behind Dick Hooper. Perhaps the hunger just isn't there. The AI guy says that we have good coaches but none of the great coaches that make a difference.

In rugby, I posted a comment by Jim O'Callaghan saying that the success of the pro game is killing the rank and file weekend rugby culture as everyone is attending rather than playing.

My point is simply that it's a damned hard puzzle to solve.

I have always said that a joined up game is what we need first and foremost. The schoolboy clubs are still producing good players. Stephen Hunt said he was impressed by recent Kennedy Cup performances. But after that we lose control. In many cases that's OK if they go to good UK clubs.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Blog on Belgian disappointment for anyone interested. Up to Lille tomorrow in hope rather than expectation....

http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.fr/201...-like.html?m=1

[SkStu]

You know I don't disagree with this but still, countries like Holland, Norway, Scotland (none qualified) and Turkey (who did but who have bombed so far) all have everything we'd only dream of.

I had a chat recently with a guy at Athletics Ireland as I'm writing an article on Irish running for my club's magazine. Despite huge numbers now participating, running is a participation culture not an excellence culture. therea re hundreds of events nationwide to enter but so many now that our best guys don't race our best guys as often as they can. At all distances our top runners aren't running the times of our 1980s runners. Even if you discount the legends like Coughlan and Treacy, at marathon level we're still 3 minutes behind Dick Hooper. Perhaps the hunger just isn't there. The AI guy says that we have good coaches but none of the great coaches that make a difference.

In rugby, I posted a comment by Jim O'Callaghan saying that the success of the pro game is killing the rank and file weekend rugby culture as everyone is attending rather than playing.

My point is simply that it's a damned hard puzzle to solve.

I have always said that a joined up game is what we need first and foremost. The schoolboy clubs are still producing good players. Stephen Hunt said he was impressed by recent Kennedy Cup performances. But after that we lose control. In many cases that's OK if they go to good UK clubs.

Amen to the bit in bold, sista. Everyone has ideas on the grassroots piece but the key is the development and viability of the domestic league. If we have a strong, relatively attractive league our fortunes will change immensely in a generation or two.

With regards to the first line/paragraph...this is true and anomalys do occur in football (although Norway are just bad and have been for some time). Whether it is a powerhouse country like Holland failing to qualify or a big country failing to perform, this is to be expected every once in a while. Sometimes good countries just produce a bad generation of international players.

It doesn't diminish the core of my argument (and of course we wouldn't be immune from occasional failure). At least these guys have control over their footballing destiny and the answers for their failure can be found from within and addressed from within. We do not have the answers and we cannot control the fix. It is a horrible situation for us to be in and unless it changes we can only expect occasional qualification and rarely ever really challenging for progress.

[Stuttgart88]

I think UEFA structures lock out the LOI from being capable of fully supporting itself professionally. A regionalised Europa League is my recommendation.

I see a Scots / NI / Wales Challenge Cup was approved by UEFA today.

Of course that's not to say some basics like prize money and facilities grants etc can't improve things, maybe central contracts.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Agree with almost everything Kingdom says.

I wouldn't absolve Walters of blame though for putting himself forward to play when he admitted he wasn't fit. Ultimately that might be the difference between us winning and drawing the match against Sweden, and the reason we don't qualify.

To make matters worse he aggravates it, gets ruled out of Belgium match and exposes paucity in our attacking options.

Given got crucified for doing the same thing in Euro 2012.

If he's fit I'd have him in the team all day v Italy but if he isn't - don't play him. Don't play Keane either; he is cooked. Murphy, Quinn and/or McClean should be the players to come in; Brady to move into central midfield.

Hope that Italy's incoming players take their foot off the gas because they don't want to risk getting injured for meaningful games etc etc..

[DannyInvincible]

Agree with almost everything Kingdom says.

I wouldn't absolve Walters of blame though for putting himself forward to play when he admitted he wasn't fit. Ultimately that might be the difference between us winning and drawing the match against Sweden, and the reason we don't qualify.

To make matters worse he aggravates it, gets ruled out of Belgium match and exposes paucity in our attacking options.

Given got crucified for doing the same thing in Euro 2012.

But Walters was completely open about the issue, everyone was aware and everyone knew that there was a risk involved, but it was one that the management felt was worth taking. Given, on the other hand, let on he was fitter than he actually was, no?

[SwanVsDalton]

Agree with almost everything Kingdom says.

I wouldn't absolve Walters of blame though for putting himself forward to play when he admitted he wasn't fit. Ultimately that might be the difference between us winning and drawing the match against Sweden, and the reason we don't qualify.

To make matters worse he aggravates it, gets ruled out of Belgium match and exposes paucity in our attacking options.

Given got crucified for doing the same thing in Euro 2012.

If he's fit I'd have him in the team all day v Italy but if he isn't - don't play him. Don't play Keane either; he is cooked. Murphy, Quinn and/or McClean should be the players to come in; Brady to move into central midfield.

Hope that Italy's incoming players take their foot off the gas because they don't want to risk getting injured for meaningful games etc etc..

I don't blame him for wanting to play. We have a management team of considerable experience, a phalanx of medical officials and analysts to help make the call. It seems like he felt he was ready and he wasn't. It happens. You roll the dice on a guy like that. That he was so badly missed against Belgium makes the case even more.

Fairly big difference between an aging, half-injured keeper already on the wane who was picking up chronic injuries and the team's most important player in qualifying who picks up a couple of bad knocks.

[Stuttgart88]

England and Russia need their own leagues

[pineapple stu]

In four years' time, I'd be delighted to be anywhere near the level of England or Russia to be honest.

[p2011]

It is perhaps moot at this stage to be dicussing the penalty, but if we go 1-0 up (or even miss and it stays 0-0), we don't have to open up as early and the second and third goals don't happen, at least not that way. My first reaction watching in the pub was 'penalty' and looking back at it now, it's still clearly dangerous play and a foul, especially on the continent.

Conjecture now: If two Irish defenders were to do that to a Belgian (or to Giroud or Goetze or a forward playing for a 'big' team) I think it would be a penalty. Something tells me that the referee thinks Long and Ireland were physical, too physical (possibly true), Belgium are the proper footballers, so they get protection while we don't. There were some bizarre decisions in the first half with Long being manhandled but getting fouls given against him. We have past history with this otherwise fussy referee (Italy 2012, Poland 2015) and it struck me as reminiscent of Paris in 2009. The referee is seeing what he expects to see, and the team expected to win is the one that gets the breaks.

Re Hendrick's card: once there are two balls on the field the game has to stop. Hendrick's action was silly/unsporting, but the game should stop before he gets a chance to do what he did. He took a clumsy way of saying "look ref, two balls on the pitch", but he has a point!

I would like to have seen Doyle in the squad if Murphy is not fancied in the battering ram role. Long has to start, no question, but I think Doyle could have done Long's job better on Saturday (putting himself about, taking abuse, trying to knock down long balls) and Long would have been better playing off him (i.e. nominally as one of our wide forwards, probably in place of McClean). Doyle still seems to have a sniff of goal and some confidence, even if it is in the MLS.

Ward didn't do a lot wrong, but having him instead of Brady at LB denies us another ball-playing player at the back and Ward is more likely to hit long balls, turning the clock back to Poland 2012.
Robbie Keane is a legend, but he just looks so unlikely to get any sort of a touch in any critical area of the pitch. And playing him without a Doyle/Long to provide him with flick-ons or Hoolahan to provide through balls just seems pointless.

[Kingdom]

It is perhaps moot at this stage to be dicussing the penalty, but if we go 1-0 up (or even miss and it stays 0-0), we don't have to open up as early and the second and third goals don't happen, at least not that way. My first reaction watching in the pub was 'penalty' and looking back at it now, it's still clearly dangerous play and a foul, especially on the continent.

Personally speaking I don't think whether we went 1-0 up or not makes a difference. It's a different game-situation to Germany in Lansdowne. As a result of being so withdrawn from essentially the first whistle in Bordeaux, we invited Belgium on quicker, ceded possession at will, and they create quite a few very good chances, or quite a few very dangerous crosses. As a consequence of that, in my opinion, it was a matter of time before they scored. Whereas with Germany, because they are a different type of attacking team, sitting deep worked, as they didn't really create many huge clear-cut opportunities, despite having serious possession. Also Germany allowed the game (from the first-half) to be quite stretched, possibly because of the type of full-backs they had that night, which meant the Long goalchance was always a possibility.
Belgium didn't have two of those full-backs which meant play was quite regularly condensed, but never did we really look like having the outlet that we did against Germany.

Essentially the reason we had to open up from the off in the second half was because of how we played in the first half - it was imperative to try and force the issue not because we needed to win the game, but because the inevitable was coming - and for me, having given Belgium the initiative then we were always on a hiding to nothing.

[Charlie Darwin]

Personally, I think if we'd gotten a penalty there and scored Belgium could have played on all day and never scored. They weren't stretching us particularly in the first half like Sweden did after Wes's goal.

[Kingdom]

Personally, I think if we'd gotten a penalty there and scored Belgium could have played on all day and never scored. They weren't stretching us particularly in the first half like Sweden did after Wes's goal.

Really? ok, different eyes I guess. Mine don't work in tandem.

[tetsujin1979]

Been reading Roy Keane's second autobiography on the trip so far. Lot of mentions of Daryl Murphy's goals for him at Sunderland. Just wondering if that's part of the reason he's in the squad, that Keane has worked with him before, and scored important goals for him at club level

[shakermaker1982]

If people seriously believe we're going to make big changes, you're all more deluded than people who thought we'd win the tournament.

McCarthy will play again. I have no doubt about that.

You were right about McCarthy (glad he played) but thankfully wrong about the changes. Unlike Trap MO'N will change things and deserves a lot of credit for the 4 big calls he made.

[DeLorean]

Bump.

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Closed thread.