Real's past

[Duncan Gardner]

Good summary by Eanna.

I recommend 'Morbo' and 'White Storm' by Phil Ball (an English journo who's lived in the Pais Vasco for many years).

My Dad met Santiago Bernabeu once, in 1975. Real were playing Derby in the EC (5-1, 1-4) and SB gave plenty of tickets to the expat Brit community. He was about 80 then and a bit of a grandee, but nice gesture.

The old man went for a **** at half-time, couldn't get back in, spent the rest of the game chatting and drinking with the US

[Aldini98]

Interesting to read the pieces by Eanna & the good Senor.....my only gripe is that the US's banners' should be censored,as many of them are highly offensive & project a v.bad image of R.Madrid...........for this reason I for one,would always dislike that club.Though sadly, is one of the great European stadia to watch football.....

Still not a patch on the Camp Nou - trust me !!!!!

[lopez]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).

To me Pathetico are as right-wing or not as Real. The lefty club of Madrid is Rayo. If you ever see their matches they are always full of flags of the 2nd Republic (Red, yellow, purple), Che Guevara and Jamaica . Espanyol are like Pathetico and Madrid with a right wing gang called, I think, Brigada Azul, but also other groupings including Catalan nationalists. I was told by one of their fans at Euro 96 that the bank Caixa Catalunya put pressure on the board to change the name. Real Madrid has far more support in Barcelona than Espanyol. I was in a sports shop and I asked the barca supporter if he sold many of the Real shirts there. 'Yes he said and a hell of lot more than that sh*t over there', pointing to the Espanyol shirts.

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVER

Yeah and London supports Paris 2012. Ask the German Lady.

The Gijon Ultras (name escapes me)

I think they are called 'Brigada del Norte'.

it was excellent alright. BTW, try telling a Catalan that the olympics were in Spain in 1992. It drives them nuts

Saw the leader of the CiU on yesterdays TVEi. He seems very much an Espanolista to me. Actually during Euro 96 I was a bit shocked up at Leeds when I got talking to some Spanish fans in the Elland Road clubhouse. They told me they were from Barcelona and I presumed that they would not be Barca fans. Wrong!

I recommend 'Morbo' and 'White Storm' by Phil Ball (an English journo who's lived in the Pais Vasco for many years).

Good books. Also Jimmy Burns 'When Beckham Went To Spain' also gives a balanced view of the 'newshirts' by the man Ball claimed of his hagiography of B*stardolona should have been called 'Barca, Good. Real, Bad'. BTW, DG. It's Euskadi not Pais Vasco. Even the children of Franco within the PP call it that now.

Interesting to read the pieces by Eanna & the good Senor.....my only gripe is that the US's banners' should be censored,as many of them are highly offensive & project a v.bad image of R.Madrid...........for this reason I for one,would always dislike that club.Though sadly,is one of the great European stadia to watch football.....

I agree with anything regarding neo-fascism being removed. The idea that swastikas are being brought into the ground is a disgrace. Another point about 'fascism' within Spanish clubs is that members can still choose their presidents while in Britain and Ireland you just have to take what you are given. The irony?

BTW, my only arrest inside a football ground was at a Barca pre-season friendly against Dynamo Kiev in La Coruna in the early eighties. It kicked off big time, with many OAPs getting stuck in throwing everything they could get their hands, on at the Policia Nacional after they man-handled, in their typical pre-charm school days, some kids that got onto the pitch. I just thought 'when in Rome...'

[jofyisgod]

Espanyol are a frequently forgotten/ignored club. Guillem Balague, of MARCA and Sky Sports is a fan, strangely enough.
Excellent project from Éanna is available if you e-mail him.

[eoinh]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).

Espanyol as you know means spainish in catalan. However in recent years they have been trying to widen their appeal in various ways including changing the name of the club. Until a few years ago the club was actually known by its spainish name Espanol.

My cousins from Barcelona are huge FC Barcelona fans and are proud Catalans. But however they also see themselves as Spainish. Its impossible really to classify an entire teams support as left/right wing etc.

Just because one vocal element puts up flags does not mean everybody in the crowd agrees/disagrees with it.

You couldnt classify Cork City supporters into one coherent political block so why try and do it with other teams?

[Duncan Gardner]

BTW, DG. It's Euskadi not Pais Vasco. Even the children of Franco within the PP call it that now.

Gracias, Senor, lo siento. Felicitaciones a su amigo, Don Manuel Fraga en Galicia

Viva Sanchez

[lopez]

Espanyol as you know means spainish in catalan. However in recent years they have been trying to widen their appeal in various ways including changing the name of the club. Until a few years ago the club was actually known by its spainish name Espanol.

My cousins from Barcelona are huge FC Barcelona fans and are proud Catalans. But however they also see themselves as Spainish. Its impossible really to classify an entire teams support as left/right wing etc.

Just because one vocal element puts up flags does not mean everybody in the crowd agrees/disagrees with it.

You couldnt classify Cork City supporters into one coherent political block so why try and do it with other teams?

Very good post Eoin. No team can be categorised in such a way unless it's stated policy of the club themselves, although when the club gets new owners or ruler, things do change. Eg: Pre Murray Rangers. If you were to take an English example then try Chelsea. It has such a vocal minority who in one incident attacked a fanzine editor of the same club for questioning the politics of some supporters. Whether Chelsea is still infilitrated by these people is questionable considering how much it costs now to watch them but the club itself can't be called a supporter of neo-nazis when it's chairman is a Jew. The worst incident I saw of neo-nazi football fans in England was before Villa's championship winning match at Arsenal. Some skinhead had a Hitler mask and was walking down the road shouting about 'Gassing the Jews'. I doubt that Pat O'B would agree that this is typical of much of Arsenal's support, many who are not only black but also Jews.

Also Espanyol (or as it was called Espanol until the nineties) was not a dig at Catalan nationalism when it was founded but a statement that Barcelona FC was discriminating against locals in its playing staff. If it was founded today it would be called Catalá no doubt. Also I find that the view of how most Catalans see themselves is Spanish aswell as Catalan. It is a much mistaken fact that Spain's present consitution gained it's biggest support in Catalonia. The resentment that minority groups in Spain feel is to the Castillianisation of their country/region rather than to Spain itself.

Gracias, Senor, lo siento. Felicitaciones a su amigo, Don Manuel Fraga en Galicia

Viva Sanchez

As you know DG the Don is no friend of the Lopez clan, although I did find an English beggar and former fisherman the only one with anything good to say about him when I was last in Coruna. Then Manny did pick up his hospital tab, so that's fair enough. BTW, the Don's recent words of wisdom - in yesterday's La Voz de Galicia - was that he's going to die without ever having put on a condom.

[Pat O' Banton]

I doubt that Pat O'B would agree that this is typical of much of Arsenal's support,

Unfortunatley at the time it was typical of a very vocal section of Arsenal's support, things have got a lot better since but are still (in my view) no means perfect.

[lopez]

Unfortunatley at the time it was typical of a very vocal section of Arsenal's support, things have got a lot better since but are still (in my view) no means perfect.

Since I started meeting Jewish people I've found the notion of Spurs as some sort of Jewish club a joke. In fact as was seen when 'Luton' last paid a visit there, there seems to be a lot of the stiff-armed brigade at WHL. Still it didn't stop Mister Metropolitan Poleeeesman arresting anyone with a Palesitinian flag. Anyway, all the Jews that I've known who support football have followed Arsenal. FFS, the chairman of Arsenal (David Dein) is Jewish too. I don't know one Jew who supports Spurs, Warren Mitchell excepted.

[Duncan Gardner]

If you were to take an English example then try Chelsea. It has such a vocal minority who in one incident attacked a fanzine editor of the same club for questioning the politics of some supporters. Whether Chelsea is still infilitrated by these people is questionable considering how much it costs now to watch them but the club itself can't be called a supporter of neo-nazis when it's chairman is a Jew

Aye, I remember that incident, if you mean the one on the away trip to Prague (Viktoria Zizkov). Chelsea have been the most expensive English club to watch since at least the mid-80s, so I doubt the £50 admission has driven all the thugs away, alas. I haven't actually been inside SB since a 0-3 thrashing by Leeds where Davros got ejected twice

If the club tolerates neo-Nazism then I say it's equally guilty. As it was when I occasionally used to sell the Chelsea Independent. We'd be moved on by the Police at KB's request, while obviously offensive racist material continued to be openly sold

BTW, the Don's recent words of wisdom - in yesterday's La Voz de Galicia - was that he's going to die without ever having put on a condom.

Let's add the spread of Aids to the Francoists' list of crimes!

[anto eile]

I think Real will always struggle to lose the Government/Army team tag. It didn't help matters a few years ago when Real, over £100m in debt, sold their training complex to the Government who promptly leased it back to them on some ridiculously low rent.

it wiped £250million debt off in one go. real mierda "sold" their city centre training ground in exchange for land further from the centre, and the money they got wiped out their debts

[anto eile]

-There is no evidence of government interference in any other matter- other than forcing Barca (and Athletic) to change their name into spanish.

theres an irony in athletic bilbaos name. they use the english spelling deliberatley so as not to use the castilian spelling.yet they spell their city name in castilian (bilbao) as opposed to basque (bilbo).

also ironically seeing as we're on the subject of name changes,,the pressures of catalan nationalism has force espanyol to change their name from Real Club Deportivo Espan~ol de Barcelona to Reial Club Deportiu Espanyol. from castilian spelling to catalan. a big step when you are The royal spanish sports club

interstingly,atlético madrid were founded as the madrid sister club of athletic bilbao, hence the same red and white strip

[anto eile]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion), but I was let to believe more recently that it draws its support from the South-West of the City, which is the poorer bit and many of its supporters are substantially Argentine (and other Latin American 2nd Generations) and are not pro-fascist. I think the last bit may well be true as I've spotted numerous Argentine flags at their matches, and when they played Valencia 18 months or so ago I noticed they cheered when Aimar was on the ball.

atlético madrid ultras are right wingers afaik, but could have another leftist ultra group like espanyol who have two ultra groups ,one is right wing- "brigada blanquiazul" and another is left wing and they dont get on. often spanish ultras are sub-segregated among their own fans. levante being another example

[anto eile]

The full name of the club is Real Club Deporitvo Espanyol- Royal Spanish Sporting Club literally.They did call themselves Español for a long time, but then changed it to Espanyol, the Catalan spelling of the word, in a token effort at reconciliation with Catalanists.

Reial club deportiu

their president until a few years back was Jesus Gil, one of the most insane right wing politicians in spain- he was best buddys with Franco- who pardoned him and released him from jail after his holiday apartments collapsed and killed 50-something people (they'd been built without planning permission, or the use of an architect).

he opened the apartments before the cement had even dried!! whacko

[lopez]

Aye, I remember that incident, if you mean the one on the away trip to Prague (Viktoria Zizkov)...As it was when I occasionally used to sell the Chelsea Independent. We'd be moved on by the Police at KB's request, while obviously offensive racist material continued to be openly sold.

That's the one and a very nasty and callious incident carried out by notorious right-winger with little interest in either Chelsea or football in general, Will Browning. Didn't know you were a Chelsea fan, Duncan.

Let's add the spread of Aids to the Francoists' list of crimes!

Well that's a bit harsh on the old 'democrat' but I get your point.

theres an irony in athletic bilbaos name. they use the english spelling deliberatley so as not to use the castilian spelling.yet they spell their city name in castilian (bilbao) as opposed to basque (bilbo).

I think Athletic keep that name not to p*ss off anyone but because that's their original name. 'Racing' of Santander and Ferrol, is not a Spanish word either and while the inhabitants of Ferrol don't exactly hold their most famous citizen - Fat Frank himself - in great esteem (while the local government wants the statue of him on a horse in the main square dumped in a museum - preferably in Madrid or Toledo - some locals celebrated the 25th anniversary of his death by decorating it with a grass mohecan and some psychadelic graffiti) you can't argue that Santander's not Castillian. BTW, the head of the RFEF - Angel Villar - is a former Bilbao player and got re-elected not just with the help 'Spanish' clubs. And what about Real Sociedad? Hardly in keeping with the views of many of its supporters. Or the equally Ikurrina decorated Osasuna, who after the civil war were far more in the fat one's best books than either of the Madrid teams - Navarra providing so much of his best troops, while Madrid were putting up the barricades and shouting 'No Pasaran' at every moment.

atlético madrid ultras are right wingers afaik, but could have another leftist ultra group like espanyol who have two ultra groups ,one is right wing- "brigada blanquiazul" and another is left wing and they dont get on. often spanish ultras are sub-segregated among their own fans. levante being another example

Spanish gangs and penas are quite small and so are often from different politcal spectrums. While Real are admittedly low on groups from the left, other clubs within the Castille orbit have this diverse following, particularly the Andalucian clubs. Super Hincha, a Spanish magazine dedicated to the ultra scene is a good guide to the right and left of these groups. The letters page of one edition I picked up had one Racing Ferrol fan complaining that his club was not just full of 'Galician traitors' who liked dressing up a good old Spanish hero like Billy Idol, while he finished his rant with a good old 'Arriba Espana!.'

BTW, Real were founded by two Catalans.

he opened the apartments before the cement had even dried!! whacko

Have you ever seen how quick cement and plaster sets in Spain? My guess was that he forgot to put in any in with the sand.

[Pat O' Banton]

I haven't actually been inside SB since a 0-3 thrashing by Leeds where Davros got ejected twice

You can't just say this wwithout giving the masses more of an explaination!

[anto eile]

fair enough lopez, but i think the reason i have athletic bilbao as having an english name is casue i might have reas it smehwere years ago. not 100% sure so open to correction.
conor74 i dont know if youre joking, thouhg i believe JRR Tolkien picked the name bilbo as he got it form the basque for bilbao. i dont know how true it is, but read it a couple of times anyway.
real sociedad of san sebastian (not "donostia") is a very ironic name for a club associated with basque nationalism

[lopez]

real sociedad of san sebastian (not "donostia") is a very ironic name for a club associated with basque nationalism

Absolutely. San Sebastian is probably the most Basque of the three major cities although I remember reading in Paddy Woodworth's book that the city (along with Bilbao) has had a split council during the last 25 years on occasions and the PP vote is surprisingly high. The reason I heard - from a Malaga born resident of Barcelona and Espanyol fan at Euro 96 - behind the change of Espanyol was down to some 'interference' by the bank Caixa Catalunya which didn't go down well with him. Basque banks - which are common throughout Spain - are notoriously conservative and perhaps would not have pushed for such a similar change if indeed they were ever in a position. Equally, with the club having democratic elections, one of the issues - if popular - that a candidate could use to curry favour amongst the support would be a name change. The suggestion that the club is solely owned by an obstinate Francoist who's not willing to change the name, is of course inaccurate. Why not even having a dual name for the club is equally strange seeing that even mainstream Spanish media now refers to the club as 'Los Donostias'.

[Larry 'da' Wyse]

Great to read all this info about history of Spanish footie. Really enjoyed reading White Storm and Barca a few years ago. Speaking of books are there any publications available about Gento or Di Stefano?. I would recommend 'Puskas on Puskas' as a read - great stuff.

I'm suprised to see that some people seem to think Espanyol & PSG have a right wing reputation. Is there any evidence apart from isolated incidents or a few dodgy photos in the tabloids?
Real Madrid's rep is well documented but AFAIR didn't Barca pick up more trophies in the Franco era than Madrid? I get the impression that Madrid today have this notion of openness (to shed their historical image and also cash in on the increased profile) - a thing that Basque and other regional sides do not have.

Most clubs regardless of what country gain reputations and some maybe false - every club will have a few right-wing fans and it depends on what profile they can raise that will attest to the clubs reputation. St. Pauli in Ger and De Haag (Hol) do have a lot of problems I believe but by and large I reckon most clubs in Spain are generally oke. Then again the racist chanting and the laughable fines impossed recently may argue against the point.

[lopez]

Real Madrid's rep is well documented but AFAIR didn't Barca pick up more trophies in the Franco era than Madrid? I get the impression that Madrid today have this notion of openness (to shed their historical image and also cash in on the increased profile) - a thing that Basque and other regional sides do not have.

Real Madrid's openess stops at admitting that the club were founded by two Catalans. Athletic Bilbao apparently refuse to sign any non-Basques but if you look at their team list the notion of being 'Basque' is very liberal. Not only do they sign Basque players that consider themselves Spanish but that the area they take their players from not only extends into Navarra (demanded by ultra-nationalists as Basque but turned down the opportunity to join Euskadi in a referendum in 1982 and is as likely to be a part of it as Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan would be a part of Hugh Ross's independent Ulster) but now Logrono in the province of Rioja which opted out of Castilla-Leon in the break up of Castille in the early eighties but is culturally very much a part of it.
I do like Athletic. My favourite ground in Spain outside the Riazor. Fans are friendly - I sat near their ultras a couple of seasons ago with my kids in Depor colours and got no hassle from them - and they do like the Irish tricolour. The following day at the airport I got talking to two who were cleaners and one pointed out what he considered was the good thing about the 'Basque' only policy: no 'mulatos' or 'negros'. I pointed to the mixed-race Brazilian keeper a few years ago with the Basque name that they signed and it shut him up, but had his mate in stitches.

Most clubs regardless of what country gain reputations and some maybe false - every club will have a few right-wing fans and it depends on what profile they can raise that will attest to the clubs reputation. St. Pauli in Ger and De Haag (Hol) do have a lot of problems I believe but by and large I reckon most clubs in Spain are generally oke. Then again the racist chanting and the laughable fines impossed recently may argue against the point.

Do you mean Hansa Rostock as a notorious German right-wing supported club? St Pauli fans are generally leftist.