Real's past

[lopez]

N o I didn't say you were a Fascist pal,as Dav said you seem to be a big defender thats all

Oh just a defender of fascism. Oh that's OK then.

[Dublin12]

Whatever you call it mate ,you know best

[Aldini98]

Lopez, do you like football?

[lopez]

Am a tad surprised,Senor......I'm talking Swastikas,banners with slogans like 'White Power'(Yes,I suppose it could refer to their kit! ) & the Fascist 'k eltic' cross,so popular with Lazio fans & used by Stone Island as their logo-says it all?

Anyway,I'm sure plenty of people inside & outside Spain find this Offensive & it should stop!Even,the H*ns keep their fascist symbols ,to a minimum,If not their views!

I've never seen any pictures of swastikas at Real games but there are plenty of other 'fascist' symbols, none of which are used as innocently as Cork's rebel flags. As for the kit, I doubt that had anything to do with race and I see that they replaced the purple away kit with an all black kit when adidas took over.

To be honest, my one visit to see the 'new-shirts' (dear me, even I can't stop alluding to the club's fascist past - well more like ultra conservative past because claiming Franco was a Fascist in the true sense of the word is like claiming a McDonald's chicken nugget came from a farmyard bird), the poor enthusiasm of the rest of the stadium probably requires the club to employ the US to get some sort of atmosphere in. As for football clubs themselves, I like to see their employment policies for a better picture of discrimination and some good old socialist clubs - Liverpool and Everton come to mind - don't come out too good in this.

Whatever you call it mate ,you know best

Thanks for that. We might talk some more when a topic comes up that you actually know something about.

[Dublin12]

No problem son, get back to me when you learn to respect other people's opinion and manage to wake up and smell the coffee,maybe then I'll consider it

[Aldini98]

No problem son, get back to me when you learn to respect other people's opinion and manage to wake up and smell the coffee,maybe then I'll consider it

That there would be some fightin' talk !!!!!

[Éanna]

I just don't understand how a club can openly support a fascist group(ultra sur)by encouraging them with free tickets to games and giving them a free hand to do what the fcuk they want in and around the stadium,thats all I have to say about it.

Fair point. They do indulge these scum, and a lot of Real fans are far from happy about it. But to be fair, they are not the only club in Spain (let alone europe) to indulge fans of dubious reputation.

[Éanna]

I've never seen any pictures of swastikas at Real games

unfortunately there have been. I have photos of it from Marca or AS from 2 years ago.

[Éanna]

I declare this can of worms WELL AND TRULY OPEN

In all seriousness, I think conor has spoken the most sense on this thread. Its a tag, a label, that is used by people with nothing better to do, and without the energy to investigate the real facts. I did a research project on it (only about 12,000 words) for college 2 years ago, so if anyone wants a copy, let me know.

Facts are these:
- Real enjoyed support from the dictatorship.
-There WAS government intervention in the di stefano transfer.
-There is no evidence of government interference in any other matter- other than forcing Barca (and Athletic) to change their name into spanish.
-Real were just better than Barca. Compare the trophy haul under the dictatorship, and since the dictatorship- it proves it.
-Barca have every right to detest Real for the politics of some of its fans and those of previous presidents. it doesn't mean they were cheated.
-Barca's previous president (who spouted the usual Catalan nationalist rhetoric) was a member of the predecessor of the PP, a party founded by members of Franco's government. As was the current Real president
-The Boixos Nois (Barca Ultras) are just as right-wing and nasty as the Ultras Sur. Many Barca fans have turned away from them after they took a turn to the right after Franco's death.

Not facts, but things I firmly believe:

-Talk of refereeing bias- for every ref who sided with Real, you can be sure there was one who sided with Barca. Spain was(is) very evenly divided on the matter.
-Barca are a very successful club. They've won a lot. Real just happen to have won more. And they both won fair and square.
-Barca have just as much access to politicians as Real, and enjoy complete, unrestricted access to the Catalan regional parliament.
-Barca have always had (and continue to have) a large sympathy vote from around the world- this despite the fact that both clubs (to a similar extent) represent the same type of egotistical nationalism and contempt for others, its just that Barca have succeeded in perfecting their "victim" status. Historically, Catalans have been victims, Barca has not

[lopez]

unfortunately there have been. I have photos of it from Marca or AS from 2 years ago.

It wouldn't surprise me. Some US got arrested in Germany a few years back (think it was the Dortmund first leg in 98) for doing a Prince Harry impersonation. They didn't realise that it's a criminal offence there.

[Éanna]

It wouldn't surprise me.

unfortunately me neither. two lads holding big 3rd reich flags with a proud swastika bang in the middle. of course, they regularly have the old spanish flag with the dictatorship's insignia on it (name escapes me) which is illegal in Spain

[lopez]

unfortunately me neither. two lads holding big 3rd reich flags with a proud swastika bang in the middle. of course, they regularly have the old spanish flag with the dictatorship's insignia on it (name escapes me) which is illegal in Spain

One. Great. Free. Didn't know the flag was illegal in Spain though. Note for anyone visiting Spain with their Toffs retro 1964 top, then: Don't. Also words to the Spanish anthem is a highly controversial issue. I heard that our old friend Luis Hablo-cojones was apparently told to keep his mouth shut during the anthem.

Thought your summary (and Connor's) was excellent. I'd disagree with the bit about the Catalans. I'd say a large section - just like the rest of Spain - were victims while a minority done very well out of it all. But then life is never (if you pardon the pun) black and white.

[Éanna]

Also words to the Spanish anthem is a highly controversial issue.

am I right in thinking there are no "Official" words to it, but two (or more) different versions which would indicate a persons politics fairly clearly, depnding on which version they sing?

I'd disagree with the bit about the Catalans. I'd say a large section - just like the rest of Spain - were victims while a minority done very well out of it all.

I agree with you there. Some people did very well out of it- Nunez the ex-barca president for example.


Another thing I remembered as well- if Barca fans want a hate figure, how about Primo de Rivera, the dictator before franco in the 1920's. he actually banned the club from all competitions for 6 months for booing the Spanish anthem. that never happened under franco

[lopez]

am I right in thinking there are no "Official" words to it, but two (or more) different versions which would indicate a persons politics fairly clearly, depnding on which version they sing?

You're right. The 'Marcha Real' has no official words but it was used as the anthem under Fat Frank. While I knew there were words written I only found out recently that one set was official under Franco. I typed in 'Himno de Espana' in google and unsurprisingly got linked to this.

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/music.htm

Cara Al Sol was another song and it is here that the derogatory term 'new shirt' comes in. A 'new shirt' was someone who joined the 'movimiento' for reasons nothing to do with the Falangists of Jose Antonio PdR. Monarchists, capitalists, churchmen, Carlists, and general scumbags. All usually in an effort to get a slice of the action. Nothing unusual here as the same happens in all totalitarian regimes, left or right.

As you might know Joselito was shot in Alicante by the Republicans through Franco's insistence not to do a deal with them over exchanging prisoners. Of course nothing to do with a threat to his power. Then Joselito's number 2 (who's name I think was Herrera) ended up as a guest of the fat one with the reds when he too criticised him. Something about a riot with some Basque Carlists at a Movimiento meeting in San Sebastian also comes to mind. Then we have Jose Gil Robles, the leader of the Catholic fascist CEDA who did more than anyone to stir up the SCW but ended up a 'democrat' according to Juan Carlos's dad who gave an eulogy at his funeral. Elbowed out by Franco, he later voiced his concerns at a Christian Democrat congress in Munich circa 1964. For his troubles he was arrested at Barajas on his return before being pencilled in for the last flight out of Madrid. However the story goes that this was to Dakar and some generous cop thought this was a bit severe and waited until the morning for a flight to Paris instead. Like Carillo and Ibarruri, he only returned once Fat Frank was a stiffy.

[Closed Account 2]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion), but I was let to believe more recently that it draws its support from the South-West of the City, which is the poorer bit and many of its supporters are substantially Argentine (and other Latin American 2nd Generations) and are not pro-fascist. I think the last bit may well be true as I've spotted numerous Argentine flags at their matches, and when they played Valencia 18 months or so ago I noticed they cheered when Aimar was on the ball.

[Pat O' Banton]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).

Espanyol I believe tend towards the right as they were set up to see themselves as the antisis to Barca - ie the Spanish side in Catalonia. However ironically enough this lead to many of the Spanish 'immigrants' to Catalonia supporting Barca, afterall its difficult enough moving to a new area where there is already hostility to who you are, so why not at least try to make things easier by involving yourself in the local culture by supporting locals club.

I think that this is the synopsis that Phil Ball gives in his book Morbo about the Spanish game. (he also points out that Madrid's last president before Franco was a commnuist and that they had a large left wing support before the Civil War as Madrid itself was a fairly left wing city)

Any corrections to this I'm sure the good Senor can help!

[SÓC]

Éanna has actually written a very good and (suprisingly) balance thesis/essay on this before, he (for once in his life) speaks sense on this subject

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVER

[Éanna]

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVER

it was excellent alright. BTW, try telling a Catalan that the olympics were in Spain in 1992 It drives them nuts

[Éanna]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion),

Espanyol are very firmly right wing- well their ultras are anyway, and as was said above, the club was founded in opposition to the foreigners (Swiss & English) who founded Barca- hence the name "Espanyol." The full name of the club is Real Club Deporitvo Espanyol- Royal Spanish Sporting Club literally.They did call themselves Español for a long time, but then changed it to Espanyol, the Catalan spelling of the word, in a token effort at reconciliation with Catalanists.

Pathetico Madrid are a strange lot. They were called Ath. Aviacion at one stage when, as far as i know, Franco's brother was involved with them. The Frente Pathetico are very right wing, not far behind the Ultras Sur, the Boixos Nois and The Gijon Ultras (name escapes me) as Roberto Carlos will testify thanks to the grunts he got from them.

their president until a few years back was Jesus Gil, one of the most insane right wing politicians in spain- he was best buddys with Franco- who pardoned him and released him from jail after his holiday apartments collapsed and killed 50-something people (they'd been built without planning permission, or the use of an architect). he was also the Mayor of marbella, was linked with the Russian mafia and called his party the Grupo Independiente Liberalista (Independent liberal group)- strange for a man with such right wing views, until you realise that the name was shortened to his own surname G.I.L. Not that he had an ego or anything

Also, Gil is responsible for one of the best comments ever- in an interview shortly after he'd had a bypass, he got rather excited, and when the interviewer told him to calm down, he replied "They can shove my heart up their arses." Charming fella

[Closed Account 2]

which is the bigger match for the fans, the Madrid derby or Barca-Real?