Well said DCFC Steve.All your points are correct and I'd imagine the Welsh league suffers from the exact same problems as we do in Ireland with competition from the Premiership,poor crowds and a bad image and shifting to summer soccer won't solve any of these issues.
Well the Welsh suffer from a bigger problem that moving to the summer may help, the fact that some of their local teams play in England, so even the people who want to support their local clubs end up supporting the English based teams. At least for three months of the year people who follow those teams can get their live football fix in the LOW.
Slash/ED - that's again based on an assumption that they're itching to follow their local LOW club, with only a clash of timings conspiring against them. doing so. A change in season, and the thousands of Cardiff and Swansea fans will suddenly flock to the League of Wales. That simply isn't true.Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Firstly - the majority of LOW clubs are in the north and west of the country, whilst the English exile clubs are primarily based in the south (with the obvious exception of Wrexham, but that still leaves Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Ebbw Vale, Merthyr etc in the south). Therefore - most don't have a clear local LOW team to switch their support to, even if they wanted to.
Secondly, there's ample opportunities currently for fans of the English-structure Welsh teams to see LOW games. The vast majority of LOW games are deliberately played at times that do not clash with the traditional Saturday 3pm English-league games. Friday nights are particularly popular. This Sunday sees a top of table LOW clash between TNS and Rhyl in Llantrisant - a town within easy reach of pretty much every south-Wales based English-structure club. Yet I doubt the crowd will be over 1,000 (only 3 LOW games in the whole of last season broke the 1,000 attendance barrier), and I seriously doubt if many of those who do attend will be fans of the FA-based teams. There's therefore in reality very little practical barriers stopping people actively supporting both an FA-based and an LOW team, but it clearly isn't happening in anything close to noticeable numbers.
Again the problem here is the relative appeal of the English-based game versus the Welsh offering. Even English-playing teams like Wrexham can't compete against the appeal of Everton, Liverpool and Tranmere within their own locality. Tinkering around with the timings of the system will not tackle this reality. Only a significant increase in the relative appeal of the Welsh game will achieve this.
Agree with your points dcfcsteve.
Would you also agree that the biggest single way of increasing the profile and popularity of league soccer in Ireland would be to have an All-Ireland league?
I'm what? I'm ants at a picnic?
I think a team making the Champions League group stages would be the biggest single way of increasing the profile and popularity of league football in Ireland.
An all-island league would certainly do a lot for the game - primarily through the massive increase in media it would generate at the start. However, I'm not sure how much your average bar-stooler cares about Shels vs Glentoran when they currently belive that both teams are sh*te. Games involving Linfield would attract attention, but for primarily sectarian reasons, but beyond that I can't see, for example, Longford v Coleraine being of any more interest than Longford v Drogheda currently is.
I also don't think an all-island league will lead to a huge improvement in the standard of the game -particularly not at the beginning. Only when the league has proven itself is it likely that a significant increase in revenues from TV etc will be generated, and we're not going to be able to raise standards much without more cash coming into our game to enable professional teams etc.
As your question asks - I honestly believe the biggest single way of increasing the league's profile and popularity is for one of our teams (probably best if it was a Dub team as well) to make the CL group stages. That is the only thing I can see that would attract massive media attention in Ireland, generate hype amongst our supposedly soccer-loving public, and publicly state that our teams are as good as those from elsewhere in Europe. I think an all-island league is the way for football to go on this island, but on its own I don't think it will achieve any of the above.
Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock.
In fact judging from reports the games following those games (Harps in the cup for example) the crowds had fallen back below their usual. Not a dig at shels, more the irish sporting public, which is fickle in whatever sport it's "supporting".Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock.
An all ireland league won't be the saviour of domestic football on the island, but it will provide the critical mass for sponsorship, and TV. I mean FFS, BBC NI style coverage would be a start for the eL!
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
That was a one-off event, and rightly viewed as such by the sporting public.Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock.
A team in the group stages would have 6 televised games - 2 or 4 of those against big European teams. They'd also have to knock-out at least one fairly big team to get that far. Therefore, I honestly think that Group qualification is the psychological 'tipping point' - the required seal of approval of a team/league. More than a 'one-off' event, and involving the highest level of football in Europe. If that were to happen across a number of seasons, do you honestly think it would do zero for the appeal of Irish club football ? If so - we may just as well all go home now....
The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland don't fail to support domestic clubs because of a pathological hatred of domestic soccerl. It's primarily because they don't rate our teams, they have easy access to a dramatically higher standard of football than they can embrace as their own, and it's the norm in our society to follow English/Scottish football. Reducing the perception gap between domestic football and the other forms would help address this issue, and the obvious way of doing this is by reaching the pinnacle of European football - the CL group stages. It isn't going to happen over night, but I can't see any other way of substantively addressing the core reasons why people here turn their back on Irish football.
Remember - you couldn't give Ireland international tickets away up to the Jack Charlton era. Celtic were to all extents and purposes viewed as the Irish national team up until then by many people. It's amazing what a dose of success will do to remind people that there's teams of their own to support....
I suppose the trick is to bring in some kind of loyalty system where people who goto the league games get priority on CL games tickets, that could encourage alot of people to start going to the games if the tickets for the CL games are selling out fast which they more than likely would, from there you can just hope that alot will get hooked. Usually alot of people who goto EL games do get hooked quite easily the problem is getting them there in the first place and you could use qualifying for the CL to your advantage this way.Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock.
EDIT and yeah basically what Steve said, qualifying for the CL would hopefully have a similar impact to what Euro 88 did for Ireland. Before that we were getting friendlys against teams like Brazil with under 20,000 showing up, the last one sold out in minutes. Okay, Brazil weren't world champions in the first game but still, that's a huge difference. It's the bandwagon effect and it seems alot of Irish sports fans subscribe to the bandwagon mentality.
Last edited by Slash/ED; 19/01/2005 at 11:41 AM.
Macy, go onto the IL Forums and witness the numerous threads moaning about the BBC NI coverage. Indeed a number of them point to the need for TV3 style coverage. It truly does appear "the grass is greener".
Quite possibly, but at least they have the highlights on the afternoon of the match, not waiting days for crap coverage. With an All Ireland league, we'd probably get the best of both anyway.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
not sure I agree with you about CL group stage qualification. If an EL team qualified once and did badly that would be seen "as a one off event" and would have little or no long term effect on attendances. The possibility of an EL team qualifying regularly for the group stages is light years away, the way things stand.
With respect to Shels there are probably the wrong team to well in Europe from a league point of view. They really do have very poor support considering how successful (and good) they are. They had a brilliant run in Europe playing some great football this year and it seemed to have no effect on their crowds. Perhaps if a club with a bigger core support (Bohs, Cork City, Derry) did as well in Europe there would be greater spin offs for the league.
My point about the All Ireland league is that it would mean that the teams qualifying for Europe would be that bit better as the league would be more competitive. Also an All Ireland league could generate (relatively)substantial TV revenue, which is what all the major leagues in Europe rely on for funding.
Also a big TV deal would benefit all the league whereas a team doing well in the CL would only benefit that club.
I'm what? I'm ants at a picnic?
We need to build on the summer theme and market to get more people through the gates up and down the country.
"Goin down the Phibsboro Road " "Bohs til I die"
Do you work for the FAI? With a soundbyte like that and no expansion into practical plans or action points surely you would be a shoe in
b*ll*cks, why would the general public of Dublin start going to games regularly because it's Bohs rather than Shels doing well in Europe? It's an argument without any logic whatsoever, we're not talking about the established fanbase it's about attracting those who don't go regularly, ie the ones who couldn't care less weather it's Shels, Bohs, Pats, Rovers, Dublin Coty or bleedin' UCD. I mean we only had a few hundred, tops, difference between ours and Bohs crowds this season and last.
You may be right about Cork and Derry though because I think it's easier for teams outside Dublin to attract support when doing well because people who don't go regularly but who are from, say Cork, can related to a team called Cork City, representing the whole City (And county) better than someone in Dublin could relate to a team called Shelbourne, or Bohemian, or Shamrock Rovers that doesn't represent the whole City, it doesn't seem like their team. I think I've wored that badly but hopefully you see what I mean.
The main reasons for changing the season to been played in Spring/Summer/Autumn, was that our European representatives would be better prepared for competition, (as shown by Rovers, Shels, and Cork's European results) and pitches would be in better condition, which they generally are. It was argued that attendances would improve by stuffing the fixture list with Dublin derbies, but with the 4-rounds of matches, high ticket prices, and the inconsistent timing of matches (thurs, fri, sat) attendances haven't improved. Fans get sick of playing the same teams every few weeks, and thankfully the 4-rounds of games has been binned for the coming season.
Marketing of games is almost non-existent. Clubs market their own games, often having to resort to putting ads in local/national newspapers. Tv coverage is bad, ticket prices are expensive, 15 Euro at most clubs, and 20 Euro in Bray,
As regards the competition, where's the glamour in watching Bolton-Fulham, or Kilmarnock-Dunfermline compared to Shels-Cork, or Rovers-Bohs? I know which game I'd rather watch, and it's not on the tele. What Shels must show next season, is that their European results were not a one-off last season, they will have to get a beatable team in the European CL qualifiers to progress to the group stage, and increase the profile of the NL. I still feel however, that if Shels and United were playing on the same night in the CL, RTE wouldn't show Shels' match live, as they show United at every chance they get.
Also, (and I know I've gone over this before) if the national team manager bothered to pick the league's best players for more international squads and games, instead of relying solely on English-based players regardless of their form, ability, availability, or physical condition at the time, it would shoot up the public profile of the league. The game against the Faroes in June, is the perfect chance to give the NL's best players a chance to show him, and the country what they can do. It would increase awareness of what they are capable of, in the media, which would in turn, increase attendances at games in the league.
Last edited by mypost; 20/01/2005 at 4:11 AM.
Much as I hate RTE, last year Shels and United did clash in the CL Qualifiers for at least one of the games - RTE covered the Shels game.I still feel however, that if Shels and United were playing on the same night in the CL, RTE wouldn't show Shels' match live, as they show United at every chance they get.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I used Bohs as an example as they seem to have a bigger core support than Shels and therefore bigger potential crowds if they did well in Europe.
I'm what? I'm ants at a picnic?
Hmmm, DCFC Steve, you talk a hell of a lot of sense!! Are you sure you support Derry??
TG
Crumbs Harry I missed your post.
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