Just enjoy the moment dundalk fans..what difference does it make if this is the best tran in the history of the league or not...in ten years time some other team will achieve something special and people will be saying that they are the best team ever.....will it lesson the current achievement? ? No. Enjoy the moment and stop both trying to convInce people that thus is the greatest team since time began and ignore people who say it isn t. ...IT'S BORING AND UNPROVABLE.
Yes, teams have some good runs. St. Pats particularly have managed to keep a respectable consistency in their coefficient for a few years now. Yes, sure formats are different. I remember that Drogheda's close call against Dynamo Kiev was in the 2nd Qualifying Round. They would have dropped down into the Europa League in today's format, the same year St. Pats had a decent run and lost out to Hertha Berlin... would Drogheda that year have beaten one of the seeded teams? who knows. Rovers did have a good one off against Partizan but did they preform in the group stages as well as Dundalk? no.
Its difficult to compare them all but Dundalk have played more games. Have they averaged more goals scored/better goal difference per games played then the others?
They have 4 points in the group which going into the group we would have said is a decent haul... and its not over yet... etc.
Yes there have been previous successes and good LOI stories in Europe... there have also been horror stories in the same period...
Dundalk are having a fine season. They have yet to surpass the European adventures of Bohemians 00, Shelbourne 04 and Derry 06. It's great it has captured interest. It doesn't make it a better achievement. This is one season just like 00, 04 and 06. This season will have to be backed up by another good season in Europe for it not to be sporadic as well. Time will tell.Originally Posted by Nesta99
It is hard to compare eras. All we know is unseeded teams mentioned in 00, 04 and 06 competed well against seeded opponents. Dundalk beat a Maccabi team who they wouldn't have played in the old UEFA Cup first round proper as Maccabi would have been unseeded as well.
If Dundalk get out of the group, it'll be a better achievement than Shelbourne 04. Anything less and if it's not followed up by another good European season, it'll be the same as Shelbourne's one season wonder.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
WHAT?! Dundalk have surpassed all of those years. They've done more than any Irish club in history of group stage European competition.
Last edited by nigel-harps1954; 05/11/2016 at 2:06 PM.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
On no they haven't. .....oh yes they have......oh no they haven't.
In fairness I met one of the rovers lads from the four in a row team and asked him how he thought that team would do against today's dundalk team. He reckoned it would be close but dundalks superior fitNess would be the deciding fat or. ...but to be fair a lot of that rovers team are in their sixties now.
Well the Europa League has only had a group stage for 12 years.
Well thats not true. You scraped through against FH, and were pretty woeful in Belarus (apparently, I didn't see that game, I was in Belgium). You weren't exactly spectacular versus Legia either though you held your own. Performances have been incredible since then, but calling your performances consistent is rewriting history. Up until BATE in Tallaght you didn't look like you were going to achieve much this summer. Our away game against Genk had been the stand out Irish performance this year until you blew everyone away with that second half against BATE.
I don't know how you are measuring this. League and Club coefficients aren't calculated the same way so its not a fair comparison. Lets not forget that Dundalk won two ties in qualifying. Not all that impressive on its own. Same achievement City had this year, though its probably fair to say BATE and FH were of a higher standard than Linfield and Hacken combined. The format has been kind to you. I think thats Legendz point.Picking up co-efficient points in one season that the league has barely managed over a number of seasons even with occasional good results (even considering format changes)
What has happened since you reached the group stage has been impressive, and beyond anything any Irish club has done in the modern/group stage era.
Though City picked up 3 draws and a defeat from our 4 group stage games in the 1997 Intertoto Cup group so I don't know where all this business about "first point in a European group" has come from!
http://www.asroma.com/en/video/2016/...e-youth-league
Highlights of the u19's vs Roma.
Look the question is unknowable. Shelbourne would have catapulted down into the "group stages" under an identical format. But look at the groups that year. Would Shelbourne's team have been able to take 4 points in any of those groups? Would Shelbourne have taken 4 points in this group Dundalk is in?
I dont think its fair to compare Uefa cup runs versus Champions league runs either... It is much harder to get through those qualifying rounds even in the Europa League format (although Maccabi did play in all of them this year and were seeded in all of them including the last one).
its hard to prove given the different formats but would the Bohs 00 or derry 06 or shels 04 team have performed as well as Dundalk? Would they have taken those 4 points like Dundalk did? Would they have beaten Dundalk to the league and get to the cup final the same year also?
I dont know, I havent followed LOI as intently as you guys but do you(s) think that Dundalk are better than those teams? if so it would be reasonable to assume that they might not have performed as well. I think its unfair to say that Dundalk has to qualify in order to have "achieved" more. 4 points is more than Rovers achieved. and finishing 3rd would still be an achievement in itself.
They have lost one of the "ties" to Zenit. if the lose the next two games...then maybe you could have a point. but i dno...
You are all forgetting the St. James Gate team from 1904.
Shelbourne 04 lost out in the CL playoff to a recent CL semi-finalist. They did not have the luxury of a champions route.Look the question is unknowable. Shelbourne would have catapulted down into the "group stages" under an identical format. But look at the groups that year. Would Shelbourne's team have been able to take 4 points in any of those groups? Would Shelbourne have taken 4 points in this group Dundalk is in?
I dont think its fair to compare Uefa cup runs versus Champions league runs either... It is much harder to get through those qualifying rounds even in the Europa League format (although Maccabi did play in all of them this year and were seeded in all of them including the last one).
its hard to prove given the different formats but would the Bohs 00 or derry 06 or shels 04 team have performed as well as Dundalk? Would they have taken those 4 points like Dundalk did? Would they have beaten Dundalk to the league and get to the cup final the same year also?
I dont know, I havent followed LOI as intently as you guys but do you(s) think that Dundalk are better than those teams? if so it would be reasonable to assume that they might not have performed as well. I think its unfair to say that Dundalk has to qualify in order to have "achieved" more. 4 points is more than Rovers achieved. and finishing 3rd would still be an achievement in itself.
They have lost one of the "ties" to Zenit. if the lose the next two games...then maybe you could have a point. but i dno...
Shelbourne competed well against Lille in the first round proper of the then UEFA Cup. That Lille team went on to finish runners-up in France.
The nature of group stages is that two teams who would have been unseeded previously in knockout get to play each other. Dundalk have benefited from this playing Maccabi compared to teams who entered the old UEFA Cup first round proper who did not get to take on a fellow unseeded team.
Bohemians 00 and Derry 06 also competed admirably in the first round proper of the UEFA Cup. They also did not have the benefit of a group stage to take on an unseeded opponent as well.
It's not too difficult to compare old UEFA Cup first round performances against the Europa League group stage.
Shamrock Rovers should have picked up points against their fellow unseeded level Greek opponents. Their manager, players and supporters are aware of that. Dundalk have obviously done better than Shamrock Rovers in that regard. I understand Dundalk have some of that Shamrock Rovers crew. That experience has obviously stood to those players which is great to see.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
Deportiva may have been semi finals the year previously, but that same year they finished bottom of their champions league group on 2 points. And didnt score any goals. Sure Shels got a draw in one leg but resoundingly beaten 3-0 in the second leg.
If we compare results v Legia Warsaw with v Depo, at least Dundalk scored a goal. Not sure about actual performances.
If we compare results v Zeni with v Lille, same result on aggregate. Again not sure about performances but did they come as close as Dundalk did?
Obviously then, taking a few points from the last 2 games might change the comparison.
I am genuinely asking though. Do you thinnk that Shelbourne team would get the same 4 points? Derry? Bohs?
Like I agree that this is not the first time an Irish club has done something special in Europe. I think most people recognise that Shelbourne that year were great with some recognisable names in the team (Wes)... Can we say the same for the Derry/Bohs team?
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Obv the experience helps alot. and we agree that performing well again next year would help alot more and it would be nice to see another team do a decent run... and improve their own/the leagues co-efficient (although that all changes for the following year).
I do think that the measuring of the co-efficient is a decent means of gauging European performance. Compare for example Shamrock rovers versus St. Pats over the last 5-10 years. Shamrock rovers had one good year, 2 points, but pats were much more consistent...
Dundalk have greatly improved theirs but still might not be seeded next year... and even if they did, under the current system they would need another good year or more to keep it ticking over.
The new system as i understand it is just adding a 10 year range rather than 5...?
That Shels team had quality throughout there is no doubting that and if they had been as prepared as Dundalk are now they could very well have made the impact that they sold the family silver for. Discussion is good and I am getting to grips with where Legends is coming from - It seemed that every comment was to take issue with results and performances in comparison to past one offs. Yes this could be a one off if it isnt built on next year. Yes the format has changed - Dundalk have reached the last 16 of the EC before and the last 32 of the Uefa Cup also. EP there were a few moments v FH and away to BATE so I shall add resilience and belief that got us through those ties. The profile of the League has undoubtedly been improved by Dundalk - this didnt happen with past achievements.
That's a compliment to UEFA. The Europa League group stage in part was to appease clubs from the likes of Scotland and the Netherlands who were looking at a separate competition.
The Europa League, while scoffed at across the water and then by Premier League supporters here, has a good standing on the continent. Someone used to post on here years ago saying Belgium for example gave good coverage of their clubs involvement in the competition.
With the LoI having a reasonable record of getting to the old first round proper of the UEFA Cup, the Europa League is an attainable level to get to but naturally very difficult as well given the knockout nature of the qualifiers.
It's been obvious for years that performances in Europe would raise the profile of the league. Some LoI supporters scoff at that.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
Deliberately obtuse Legendz now!! Just squeeze some pyramid system rhetoric in and you will have ticked all boxes.
You can really notice the difference between the group stages of the UEFA Cup back in 2000-2008 and these years. There is much more diversity, smaller leagues involved and less monopolised by traditional football countries.
I also agree that there has been the potential for years. Looking at other clubs/countries who were making it in. I def think Irish teams should have better co-effients. If Dudenage can have a co-efficient of 4.975 then so should irish clubs...
Im curious how these new changes will change all that.
St. Pat's of course had a fine run to the UEFA Cup first round in '08 as well competing well against Hearths.
It was only in 2009 that the group stage expanded to 48 and the old first round was scrapped.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
Whatever about the arguments for Shels and Derry the inclusion of Bohs' "run" in 2000 is bizarre. Bohs got thru one round against an Aberdeen side seeded thanks to Rantic's coefficient. They hadn't even qualified for Europe in 4 or 5 seasons. It was a good season, and a good result in a dead rubber against Kaiserslautern. Not as impressive as Pats' recent runs, imo.
Anyway, Dundalk were in the last 16 of the Champions League (European Cup) a few years back... fact
It was an interesting few games though - penalty in the 1st leg to give the second away goal. Then second leg with the entire main stand in Tolka full with Aberdeen supporters and before, them being marched toward Dalymount en-masse by the Gardaí and a local chap, oblivious to the game obviously, wearing a Celtic shirt getting fierce abuse at the top of O'Connell Street by a mob of Aberdonians! He was in shock after as he hadnt a notion what had just happened being slagged off for wearing a Celtic shirt in Dublin lol. Bohs hanging on at the end after the traditional own goal and being down to ten men, the siege at the end, Russell making a fingertip save and then the corner and it blazed over the bar from about 10yrds. One of Tolka Parks finest nights for atmosphere. Roddy Collins really believing his own hype and went on to Kaiserslautern, 3 goals in 10 minutes killed the tie totally it was presumed until an injury time goal from Glen Crowe, then an early goal in Germany and should have had the agg score leveled if not getting in front on away goals. Superb performance that night and the Kaiserslautern manager was sacked next day. Got Roddy a few jobs with those few games on his CV. Certainly the Aberdeen game in Tolka was some atmosphere !!!!
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