Tom Humphries on identity and Irishness

[Macy]

Except he's talking about 'mercenaries'.......Not the Diaspora/2G Irish people in general.....who I think are worthy of our backing,especially as only the Ignorant would perceive much definable difference......

Not sure I get you.

A player who may have been born outside Ireland but considers himself Irish is no issue at all.

A player who was happy to take his chances getting picked for what he considers his native country, then declares his Irishness at the age of 25 is a mercenary who is picking his nationality as a career move.

I don't see what is ignorant about that, it's just a different opinion. There's plenty of Ireland supporters who are quite happy for Kerr (or whoever) to get players with no real connection (eg Morrison) or players that have previously declared for England (eg Macken), there are others of us out there who would prefer the national team to be made up of people who genuinely are Irish (be that Irish born or 2nd Generation). To me that's not ignorance of the diaspora at all.

[razor]

Except he's talking about 'mercenaries'.......Not the Diaspora/2G Irish people in general.....who I think are worthy of our backing,especially as only the Ignorant would perceive much definable difference......

If you cannot see a "definable difference" between Kevin Kilbane (2G Irish)and Clint O'Morrison (Mercenary)and their motives in wearing the green jersey then theres not a whole lot more I can say.

No-one can say he (Houghton)was 'mercenary'as Scotland were probably better than Ireland,when he made his debut anyway

All the more reason for Ray to declare for us as he wasn't anywhere near the Scottish squad at the time. If he didn't play for us then he wouldn't have had an international career never mind a career talking tripe on RTE week in week out.

[davey]

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. Both my neighbours were Irish, all house visitors were Irish. The only English people I met were at school ( mostly 2g too).All holidays spent In Galway. Yes, it was sometimes rammed down my throat to a certain extent, but I always liked the fact that I was a little different. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.

In my experience, whether at Ireland games or in general, Most sarky remarks about my Irishness have come inhabitants from Gods City - Dublin. I can totally sympathsise with dcfcs comments about the Dubs he met in Paris. I've met very few 2g in Britain whose parents came from Dublin compared to other parts of Ireland. I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

[M@ttitude]

Clint O'Morrison (Mercenary).

Is Clinton Morrisons mother not Irish? She has a Dublin accent anywayand brought him up without his English father..(as far as I know) Does that not qualify him as 2nd G Oirish?

[lopez]

You complain that your right to be Irish is denied to you, yet are quite happy to wipe out my culture and nationality with a few clicks of a keyboard

OK, apologies for dissing Scotland in such a manner.

The way I see it is that if Scotland were a independent country then it would feel less inclined to determine its citizens in being those born in the country. I'm not taking away anything from Scottish culture - the language sadly was decimated years ago - just that IMO I'm less inclined to take seriously demands that McGeady plays for 'his country' when that country is Britain, and remains so because democratically (albeit by a slim margin) Scots don't want to change that.

[Macy]

Is Clinton Morrisons mother not Irish? She has a Dublin accent anywayand brought him up without his English father..(as far as I know) Does that not qualify him as 2nd G Oirish?

Well if that's the case, he shouldn't have turned us down once, issued a come and get me plea to Sven, then considered playing for Jamacia, then when all other avenues had been exhausted decided he was Irish afterall.

[M@ttitude]

Interesting debate

I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

Ignorance on your behalf, get your facts right mate!

[razor]

Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

I'd be more inclined to go with the latter.

[M@ttitude]

I'd be more inclined to go with the latter.

You would coming from Cork, get over it, Dublin is the capital.. Its ok, no need to be bitter.

[green goblin]

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.
.

2g? You're lucky.
Although my uncles and aunts were all born in Waterford, my own Dad was born in Kilburn, which makes me 3g. You're more Irish than I am. My wife's Mum was born in Cork, making her more Irish than I am, and which means, on some complicated mathematical formula that my own children are more Irish than I am, despite being born in High Wycombe!

[razor]

You would coming from Cork, get over it, Dublin is the capital.. Its ok, no need to be bitter.

Thats partly to do with it of course but more to do with certain Jackeen Neanderthals I had the pleasure of meeting in Paris.

[lopez]

Lads, lads. Calm down!

This has got to be the maddest site forum ever. There's so many cyberbrawls going off everywhere. Conchita was trying to find out about the Munster-Quins rugby game on Saturday and wondered into the London Irish RFC forum. They spent five pages 'discussing' whether to wear a Munster scarfe or hat with their London Irish top.

I salute you all.

[green goblin]

Lads, lads. Calm down!

This has got to be the maddest site forum ever. There's so many cyberbrawls going off everywhere. Conchita was trying to find out about the Munster-Quins rugby game on Saturday and wondered into the London Irish RFC forum. They spent five pages 'discussing' whether to wear a Munster scarfe or hat with their London Irish top.

I salute you all.

Ahh, foot.ie. There's nowhere else quite like it The breadth of topics covered over the past year have been breathtaking. Politics, shampoo, wedding ettiquette, weather forecasting, lifethreatening illnesses, politics, love, death, war, we even found time to talk about football!

[davey]

To M@ttitude - Get my facts right?

So Just as high a percentage of Dubs moved over to England in the 50s,60s and 60s as the rest of the country? i think not

Apologies for the cheeky dig at Dubs but its my experience that Dubs are more likely to scoff at a 2g persons right to call to call themselves Irish than people from the rest of Ireland. I was just hypothesising a reason as to why this might be. Certainly Irish people from the likes of Cork, Galway, Mayo to name but a few counties are more likely to have cousins with an English accent and hence understand the nature of the 2g alittle better

[Jim Smith]

OK, apologies for dissing Scotland in such a manner.

The way I see it is that if Scotland were a independent country then it would feel less inclined to determine its citizens in being those born in the country. I'm not taking away anything from Scottish culture - the language sadly was decimated years ago - just that IMO I'm less inclined to take seriously demands that McGeady plays for 'his country' when that country is Britain, and remains so because democratically (albeit by a slim margin) Scots don't want to change that.

The Scots have an even worse attitude to their diaspora than the Irish - unless they are successful they either don't exist or they are a joke. If they are successful then there is a whole set of 'I knew his father...' begrudgery.

I don't know the exact reason for McGeady's choice but having lived along side Donegal Glaswegians if he didn't feel at least in part Irish he would be the only one I know of. The fact that he defied his father over his choice of country is interesting - is he a mercenary or is he rejecting an Uncle Tom attitude? Not that I'd call any Donegal Glaswegians (no matter how Scottish) Uncle Tom to their face - not if I wanted to keep my teeth that is

[lopez]

The Scots have an even worse attitude to their diaspora than the Irish - unless they are successful they either don't exist or they are a joke. If they are successful then there is a whole set of 'I knew his father...' begrudgery.

I do get that impression although I've also seen - on TV when that game against Estonia was called off and in person at Prestwick in Feb. 2003 - a few 'plastics' that follow Scotland. Same I'd guess for Wales. Wise move re. Glasgow's Irish and 'Uncle Tom.'

[Superhoops]

Much as I despise FIFA......They're all eligible to play for us......Next you'll be telling me you didn't cheer when 'RayO' scored in Stuttgart or New York(Btw,his 'Scottishness' was never a problem @ the time!),or when Clinton scores in a WCQ.....Or wait until a mixed race Black-Romanian from Dublin does?

If we had more decent players,we wouldn't pursue these FIFA rules....who cares anyway.....& would like to see you say it to their face,that 'They're Not Irish'...rather them than some of the parochial bigots on here!

Dav, I'm getting worried. I actually agree with everything you say in this! Either you are getting sensible or I am going mad. If I start supporting Celtic, I will know it is the latter!

[sylvo]

Dav, I'm getting worried. I actually agree with everything you say in this! Either you are getting sensible or I am going mad. If I start supporting Celtic, I will know it is the latter!

He's becoming more of a man of the people these days after his trip down under meeting new people and all that craic, he could be changing like Che Guevara did after his trip around South America.

Maybe dav's next big trip could be a trip around the OSC by BMX bike.
Davros, the BMX diaries would be a best seller at Easons.

[razor]

Much as I despise FIFA......They're all eligible to play for us......Next you'll be telling me you didn't cheer when 'RayO' scored in Stuttgart or New York(Btw,his 'Scottishness' was never a problem @ the time!),or when Clinton scores in a WCQ.....Or wait until a mixed race Black-Romanian from Dublin does?

Sure theres nothing either of us can do about eligibility
My point on "RayO" was that I believe his motives for playing for Ireland were mercenary, I never said the man didn't give his all for us when wearing the jersey. the same goes for Clinton right now, I think maybe i'm just more cynical now as i'm getting older.

who cares anyway

I feel it an honour to possess an Irish passport, Obviously some people don't feel that way. Al Fayed will have one next.

If we had more decent players,we wouldn't pursue these FIFA rules....who cares anyway.....& would like to see you say it to their face,that 'They're Not Irish'

To be honest I don't reckon Clinton or Macken would care and as for "RayO" he'd probably agree.

[Babysis]

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. Both my neighbours were Irish, all house visitors were Irish. The only English people I met were at school ( mostly 2g too).All holidays spent In Galway. Yes, it was sometimes rammed down my throat to a certain extent, but I always liked the fact that I was a little different. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.

In my experience, whether at Ireland games or in general, Most sarky remarks about my Irishness have come inhabitants from Gods City - Dublin. I can totally sympathsise with dcfcs comments about the Dubs he met in Paris. I've met very few 2g in Britain whose parents came from Dublin compared to other parts of Ireland. I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

in my opinion, very well said.