Tom Humphries on identity and Irishness

[wws]

WWS: Tut, tut: Yet another of the Irish schooling population to have been sick the week the 'e' word was discussed in history.

Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.

[wws]

nope, you've lost me

[lopez]

Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.

You don't know what the 'e' word is? I'll leave you to get back to your crayons. Where ignorance is bliss and all that.

[lopez]

Does that mean you intend to force your Irishness onto them? Surely children born to parents of any nationality in a 'foreign' country have the right to adopt the identity/nationality of their own choosing, be it the nationality of the country they were born in or the nationality of their parent(s).

What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.

[razor]

When all Irish people accept that to many being a Celtic fan is a manifestation of their 'Irishness',then I for one will stop banging on about it!

As a holder of opposing beliefs to yourself on this whole topic it looks like we will be stuck with your 'banging on' forever.

I'm sure dcfcsteve's kids will follow DCFC, the same as mine will support CCFC, the same as people who support Celtic well there kids will support Celtic.
Of course you could let them make up their own mind.

[Babysis]

Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.

[green goblin]

Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.

Same for me. Always known I was Irish. Hope my own kids chose to acknowledge it as they grow up. Our local school had a "wear something blue" day, for some reason. My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt.

[sylvo]

My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt.

That's what I like to see GG, a little gentle encourgement does no harm at all.

[Jim Smith]

What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.

Hardly a trait unique to England.

I was in a pub in Dublin watching you play Malta a few years back when I wasn't suitably ecstatic when you won. I simply didn't jump about and shout and the abuse that I got was far from good natured.

[razor]

Guess myself & RMK will be on the same side as once!

I always knew ye were ould pals.

Mind you,they might just choose to support a club side themselves!Not unlike I did myself!

I can just imagine the 6 or 7 year olds telling their Uncle Dav that they wish to support Celtic because they see it as a proper manifestation of their Irishness.
Oh you'll be so proud.

[lopez]

Hardly a trait unique to England.

I was in a pub in Dublin watching you play Malta a few years back when I wasn't suitably ecstatic when you won. I simply didn't jump about and shout and the abuse that I got was far from good natured.

I'm not surprised about that. My point was, from a media point at least, everyone is expected to support England although. This in a country that is very multi-national and cultural and which most people accept. While I must admit that I wouldn't go into a local pub to watch an England game for the same reasons you claim, on the whole I get just a bit of (good natured) digging from English workpals (very little - if any - of it 'you should be supporting England'). I don't think that would happen if I was an Englishman born, brought up and remaining in Ireland.

In a lot of ways Ireland still suffers from what Scotland appears to be suffering. A sort of inability to come terms with a colonial past. Scotland puts so much emphasis on a birth soil because there is no proper nationality. People there are British and there is insufficient number of them that want anything different. Quite a few Irish people can't come to grips with their own nationality being now separate from Britain (the same occurs from time to time in Britain aswell). This is why so many of them feel discomfort with anyone in Britain claiming to be Irish.

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)) and damned if he's too good (McGeady). I remember hearing about Kevin Nolan visiting an EL ground with QPR in the nineties getting booed. Why?: Because he chose the tans over Ireland. The same people would probably have said that he was only playing for Ireland because he wasn't good enough for England.

McGeady is under a lot of pressure. Thankfully both his club and most of his club's supporters are 100% behind him. And as he showed on Sunday, he's more than the average namby-pamby skilful player that I previously thought.

[Macy]

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)).

Houghton is a total mercenary, and a prime example of what is wrong with some of them that use the Grandparent rule. He still says he's scottish and supports scotland first and foremost. He scored some memorable goals for Ireland, but that doesn't mean he didn't only play for us as a career move.

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap - the only similarity is that they were born in the UK.

[lopez]

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap - the only similarity is that they were born in the UK.

That's right. I've always said that Aldridge and Townsend were never Irish, just that they were entitled to Irish citizenship. I hardly put McGeady in the same boat. He's making excuses about the Scottish youth system and only the inferiority complexes on the auld sod are fooled by it. Certainly no one in Scotland is.

[Macy]

That's right. I've always said that Aldridge and Townsend were never Irish, just that they were entitled to Irish citizenship. I hardly put McGeady in the same boat.

Never said he was in the same boat - I think way back in the thread I made the very same point!

[Macy]

Sorry,that's pure BS!
He went to school with my pal & his brother(William of York,an R.C. school,FFS),was always aware of his Donegal roots & was always keen/happy to play for Ireland......anything he says now is just playing the'sympathy' card for the Scots,now they're so sh*t!
No-one can say he was 'mercenary'as Scotland were probably better than Ireland,when he made his debut anyway.

Well maybe he should drop that when he's doing RTE programmes like the Red and Green where he also said the same. He said 1) that he's scottish and looks for their results first and 2) He was upset when Scotland didn't call him up despite him feeling he was good enough for several seasons, so when Charlton came calling he felt he had nothing to lose. If you get the opportunity check out the programme.

btw wtf has Roman Catholic school got to do with it? There's plenty of scottish (and english and welsh) Roman Catholics too - RC schools aren't the exclusive domain of Irish descendants!

[green goblin]

I would be(& why not?).....by default they could even be CC fans......that would just deserve sympathy! Mind you,the ultimate nightmare would be an Ingles/ManUre shirt et al

My sister is going though this very dilemna at the moment. She has two boys, one is Man Utd mad. Our Dad keeps trying to point out that Utd have always had a strong Irish following, could be worse, and all that. Her youngest has no interest in footie, only rugby... and wears his Ireland rugby shirt wherever he goes.
Realising the need to hook 'em in while they're youbng, Dad's made sure that my own two daughters have enough Ireland/Waterford/Celtic tops between them to kit out a ladies XI, and as a result they think the England they live in is a small island somewhere off the Wexford Coast.

[razor]

though as Lopez has implied elsewhere in this thread,for many Irish 2G players,'with friends like these,who needs enemies'......

Maybe we should have a 'Diaspora XI' v.a home-reared side......for charity?!& if only to appease the Ignorant.......

In your references to the "Diaspora" and the so called ignorance of those whose families were left behind, I think there has to be a differentiation as Macy has stated.
You don't seem to be acknowledging that such a difference exists and maybe it doesn't for you?
But it certainly does for me.

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap

[lopez]

Maybe we should have a 'Diaspora XI' v.a home-reared side......for charity?!& if only to appease the Ignorant.......

Good idea. The inferiority complexes can go along and support a 'real' irish team. In the meantime I'm all for supporting the 'plastics' in other sports. London Irish against any Irish provincial side and London GAA against any Irish county side (I'm not a great lover of the Grab All Association but I met one player from London who claimed it 'kicked off' big style after they played Mayo at Ruislip. Apparently 'English' and 'B*stards' were used in the same sentence).

[Jim Smith]

I'm not surprised about that. My point was, from a media point at least, everyone is expected to support England although.

No arguments there. I find that when I try to be 'mature' about the Auld Enemy I can manage about 5 minutes before the commentators/pundits drive me back to my old ways.

In a lot of ways Ireland still suffers from what Scotland appears to be suffering. A sort of inability to come terms with a colonial past. Scotland puts so much emphasis on a birth soil because there is no proper nationality.

You complain that your right to be Irish is denied to you, yet are quite happy to wipe out my culture and nationality with a few clicks of a keyboard

McGeady is under a lot of pressure. Thankfully both his club and most of his club's supporters are 100% behind him. And as he showed on Sunday, he's more than the average namby-pamby skilful player that I previously thought.

McGeady made his choice and I wish him the very best (unless he is playing against Scotland when I hope he has a stinker) and hope he stays with Celtic - its good for the future of the game to see someone raised in Scotland (whatever their nationality) playing the game in Scotland.

[wws]

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)) and damned if he's too good (McGeady).

on the contrary I don't actually see it as an issue worthy of serious debate at all. All professional footballers are mercenaries - its the nature of the game but thats besides the point. I've never held misplaced romantic nationalistic notions about the motives of people who play for ireland - quite simply I dont care - visit Lansdowne Road - itself a rugby ground - and feel the silent pain that is the lot of Irish football - its sh;t - I no longer care about the FAI and the "boys in green". We have supposedly one of the richest countries in Europe and best city to live in (?) - yet we cant field one representative in the Champions League proper - thats the fault of people who have singlehandedly failed to believe in anything other than utter dependence on England (and scotland to a lesser extent) to develop our game at elite level.

These people are not worthy of anything bar derision. Not facking sentimental bs backing.