QuoteWell the Welsh are really lagging behind and the power of Celtic/Rangers means it couldn't work with them in it. That's before you even look at the UEFA/FIFA problems.
It's probably been discussed before (sorry if it has), but what to ya think of the same idea as our Rugby loving brothers but with the the top Leagues in Ireland, Scotland and both League in Ireland. Would it work ?
Well the Welsh are really lagging behind and the power of Celtic/Rangers means it couldn't work with them in it. That's before you even look at the UEFA/FIFA problems.
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It's only chance is without Celtic/Rangers.
But don't look at the rugby for inspiration - it's not well attended in general and hasn't generated the intensity or passion that was expected of it more's the pity.
I've always been opposed to the idea of trans-national 'super' football leagues. My main reason for this is the fact that when they do come into being they'll be money-generating ventures lead by and for the big rich clubs in Europe, as opposed to being lead by the philosophy of what is best for the game. I've also felt that it would kill off football in a lot of smaller nations - either through the creation of a secondary super league structure (for clubs like Celtic, Ajax, Rosenborg, Anderlecht, Skonta Riga etc who've out-grown their domestic league) or through the desertion of football-loving TV audiences outside of the super-league countries.
However, I've very recently changed my view on this for 2 reasons :
1) Pan-national/'super' leagues are inevitable in Europe.
The only thing stopping Celtic and Rangers joining the English League structure is the chairmen within the Premiership/Championship. Under EU competition law (reinforced in the UK by a judgement made by Judge Blackburn in the case of Newport Co etc vs the FAW), the SFA and UEFA can't stop them. Fact. Under the same laws, the FA couldn't even stop Scottish teams joining the English system if the Chairmen voted for it either. The FA could make life difficult for the Old Firm by refusing to nominate them as the its entrants for European competitions if they won anything. However - the FA have effectively handed control of English football over to the Premiership Chairmen, so in practise they do not and would not have the balls or ability to take a stand on this, even if they wanted to.
Now - currently the majority of Chairmen in England (Premiership and Championship alike, though particularly in the smaller clubs) are of a mind NOT to let the Old Firm in, as it would mean 2 of their number losing out in return. However, financial pressures within the game look likely to force them to review this stance. TV rights provide one of the key sources of income for teams at the higher levels of English football - in many cases, its clubs biggest single source of income. The value of football TV rights in England has declined dramatically over the last number of years (as it has in most European markets), and there is also pressure for the block-negotiation on behalf of all premiership clubs to come to an end. As a result, the next renegotiation over TV rights will almost certainly see at least some drop in income for all clubs, and possibly a huge drop for many of the smaller ones. Think of the impact the collapse of ITV Digital had on Championship teams - then multiply it ! These clubs will then need to look elsewhere to plug a huge gap in their finances. However, the other key traditional avenues of income - sponsorship, attendances and merchandise- are also declining across the Premiership (particularly again for smaller clubs), so there is nowhere for them to turn to plug such a large impending gap in their finances. The majority of the Premiership/Championship teams falling further and further behind the top 4 or 5 wealthier teasm in their leagues therefore looks increasingly likely. However - it's widely recognised that entry into the English system of 2 of the best supported teams in Britain (if not Europe) would provide a huge boost to the value of English football's TV Rights. The Old Firm therefore provide a relatively easier solution to the inevitable financial crisis that is looming for the smaller Premiership/Championship clubs. I therefore believe it's inevitable that self-interest will see English Chairmen in either the Premiership or Championship in England looking to do a deal for the admittance of the Old Firm. Remember - they are the only thing stopping it from happening.
Once a 'trans-national' precedent of a couple of big teams jumping ship to play in another league for financial gain has been set, and the old bogey of being restricted to your own league is broken, I honestly believe it will only be a matter of time before bigger pan-European super-league structures follow.
2) I think it will save Irish football
In the context of the above inevitability, a league restricted to just the Republic of Ireland- or even teams in the whole of Ireland - would start to look like an irrelevant side-show and could well be doomed. The bigger teams (Linfield, Glentoran, Shels, Cork) would look to jump ship and join a super-league of the lesser-nations as soon as they could. This would rip the heart out of club football on the island by destroying it's financial base/appeal.
The only way to either prevent our most ambitious clubs from deserting the rest of the league, or to maintain relevance for Irish club football regardless of whether or not that happened, would be a Celtic League-type competition. Teams in Northern and southern Ireland joining the non-Old Firm clubs in Scotland, teams from the League of Wales (they'd obviously need to lift their game in advance of this though), and hopefully also persuading the exiled Welsh teams that play in England to join-them as well, to create a much more meanigful and attractive league for players, fans, sponsors and investors alike. Also - such a league would 'make sense' : the 3/4 nations involved would have a shared language, history, geography, kinship and (broadly and historically) culture. Just like a Scandinavian league, it would feel right and be an obvious choice.
I could really see such a Celtic Football League working and over-time becoming appealing to fans and investors in Britain and Ireland. More to the point - in the event of one or more European super league developing, I can honestly see no future for Irish club football without it. Club football that is restricted to only all or part the island of Ireland just couldn't compete in such a world.
no way. i'd have no problem in expanding the setanta cup to include wales and maybe scotland as well, but thats it. Its not helping rugby at all, crowds for the clubs in rugby have been destroyed by it, and its only the provinces/big clubs that have succeeded
dcfcsteve
Point of information. FIFA Statutes and UEFA Rules prohibit a team playing outside it's own jurisdiction without the express permission of the two associations concerned. This is how your team are playing in the Republic jurisdiction because the IFA and FAI agreed to it , that UEFA sanctioned it.
It would take FA and SFA agreement for Celtic and Rangers to play in the English Premiership in which they would most likely be also rans without major investment in their playing squad.
An All-Ireland League based on co-operation between the IFA and FAI would be sanctioned by UEFA and FIFA but there would be a real possibility that one of the two jurisdictions could lose their international team, in the medium to long term.
Last edited by CollegeTillIDie; 07/01/2005 at 7:30 PM.
Point of Information, College Till you Die :Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
dcfcsteve
Point of information. FIFA Statutes and UEFA Rules prohibit a team playing outside it's own jurisdiction without the express permission of the two associations concerned. This is how your team are playing in the Republic jurisdiction because the IFA and FAI agreed to it , that UEFA sanctioned it.
It would take FA and SFA agreement for Celtic and Rangers to play in the English Premiership in which they would most likely be also rans without major investment in their playing squad.
An All-Ireland League based on co-operation between the IFA and FAI would be sanctioned by UEFA and FIFA but there would be a real possibility that one of the two jurisdictions could lose their international team, in the medium to long term.
I refer you to the landmark judgement made by by Lord Blackburn in the High Court of England and Wales in 1994, when a number of Welsh teams playing in England took the FAW to court over this very issue.
When the FAW first introduced the League of Wales in 1992, they asked the non-professional Welsh clubs playing in the English pyramid structure (e.g. Newport, Merthyr etc, but not Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea) to join their new league. When almost all said no, the FAW invoked the FIFA/UEFA statutes and rules you refer to. They decreed that those clubs who had refused their invitation would no longer be allowed to physically play English league-structure games within their jurisdiction (i.e, the territory of Wales). Whilst Rhyl bottled it and joined the LOW (their application for membership that year was by then too late, so they had to join the 'Cymru Allliance' League one level below and gain promotion first), the rest still refused, and were thereby forced to play their games in various English counties bordering Wales for 2 seasons instead (e.g. Newport played in Gloucestershire)
Eventually, the clubs concerned, led by Newport Co, took the FAW to the English High Court in 1994 under EU anti-competition/Restraint of Trade law, and won their case. The ruling was that to prevent a football team in one EU jurisdiction from plying their trade in another EU jurisdiction was unlawful, anti-competitive and a restraint of trade. The FAW therefore had to reverse their decision, and the exiled Welsh clubs have played their games in Wales ever since, regardless of which jurisdiction they've been in.
Derry required a special dispensation from UEFA/FIFA in 1985 to join the LOI, because the relevant EU restraint of trade laws weren't in place then (they came in with Maastricht in 1993).
The English based Welsh Clubs used to enter the Welsh Cup and play in the Cup-Winners Cup representing Wales. They are banned from representing Wales nowadays and cannot represent the principality in Europe . Not disputing any of your points in the above posting just adding additional information to them.
In terms of representing Wales in Europe - it's up to the FAW who they nominate to represent the country. As with all national associations, UEFA also has to technically accept that nomination. The FAW has, however, told the exiles that they won't represent Wales whilst they play league football in England (this is an FAW 'rule', not a UEFA one).
Contrary to popular belief, however, the English-based Welsh teams ARE perfectly entitled to enter the Welsh Cup. However, this could easily cause great difficulties for the FAW - if 2 of the English-based Welsh teams made the FAW Cup final (perfectly feasible), then Wales would lose a European slot - UEFA rules state that the Cup Winner Reps must have been a finalist in that competition, whilst FAW 'rules' state that no English-based club can represent them in European competition.
To get round this, the FAW deliberately schedules the dates of Welsh cup games in direct conflict with the earlier rounds of the English FA Cup, meaning that the English-based teams have to make a choice of which competition to play in (by the rules of both competitions you're supposed to field your strongest team, so if they put out 2nd strings in the Welsh Cup they'd be picked-up on this by the FAW and thrown out). Understandably, the exiled clubs always choose the English competition as their priority.
This is 100% true - heard it directly from the mouth of the last President of the FAW myself only 4 weeks ago.
I reckon they should all just pack-in the Welsh league anyway and come join us in the Eircom
Well any Football Association is entitled to legislate rules for it's own Cup competitions and the FA of Wales is no different in that regard. The fact remains UEFA has no objection to the banning of clubs playing in English Leagues playing as representatives of Wales in UEFA club competitions.
UEFA sees this has an historic anachronism, which is not repeated that often across Europe.
The League of Wales was formed in the early 1990's order to enable the FAW preserve it's National team... FACT . GB has been under pressure for years to field one national team especially from African members of FIFA. Scotland had a viable National League since the last quarter of the 19th Century. But Wales did not have one until about 1991/92.
What we might have seen if there had been a G.B. team was the North throwing it's lot in with us. The only country in Europe which has a National team but no League now is Liechtenstein. But then they only have a small number of senior clubs.
Last edited by CollegeTillIDie; 08/01/2005 at 9:49 AM.
Two points on this
1/ England and Wales are governed by the same parliament and administration . Therefore in football terms two seperate entities under International Law one
2/ Derry City were technically in another jurisdiction politically hence they needed a special dispensation and would need one today if they were trying to enter the Eircom League in 2005.
And the above reason is why Wimbledon F.C. were not permitted to relocate outside the so called U.K. and play English Premiership football operating from Dublin or any other country.Hence they are in Milton Keynes , England as the MK Dons today.
Sorry to bore everyone else on the board with this, but you've got the wrong end of the stick with a lot of this CTID :
1) I'm well aware that England and Wales are governed by the same parliament (though as you know some governmental responsibilities have also been transferred to Wales). This is irrelevant anyway, as both England and Wales are regions within the EU, who's laws have been used to state that it is restraint of trade to stop a football team in one footballing jurisdiction within the EU from joining the league structures of another footballing jurisdiction within the EU - REGARDLESS of whether or not they share the same national parliament or not. EU competition law over-rules member nation laws in this realm, and certainly over-rules the regs of a body like UEFA/FIFA within the EU's zone of jurisdiction. This is simply legal fact - proven in the English High Court (the judgement there was made with reference to EU, not UK, law), and confirmed directly to me by a former member of the UEFA Management Committee. I can't see what part of this is difficult to understand.
2) If Derry wanted to join the Eircom League today, and the Eircom League Management Committee/AGM (i.e. the clubs), using their normal channels for considering applications, agreed to accept them in, then it would be against EU competition law for either the IFA, FAI, UEFA, FIFA, the Irish government, Ian Paisley or Daniel O'Donnell to prevent them from doing so. Simple legal fact, as established under EU law in the English High Court.
Now, converting legal fact into political reality - the FAI has much more influence/control over it's clubs than the FA does with the Premiership clubs in England, so it would most likely be able to persuade Eircom clubs to vote against admitting into the league a team that it or another football association were vehemently opposed to joining. The FA in England has effectively ceded contol of English club football's destiny to the Premiership clubs, by proving itself unable to stand-up to them in the past. Therefore, English clubs would be much more likely to go against the will of the FA, SFA etc on something like this - particularly if individual clubs believed their finacial and footballing survival hinged upon it (i.e. the value of their TV rights package).
If Wimbledon/Sam Hamman had been absolutely hell-bent on relocating to Dublin whilst still playing in the English structure (they also considered Belfast, which is not within a different legal jurisdiction, but didn't choose to go there either), EU competition law would have supported them on this, as it had the Welsh clubs in 1994. The FA could not have legally stopped them from remaining within their pyrmaid structure (though it could legally have done as the FAW does and declare that they would never be nominated to represent England in European competitions, which would be a powerful incentive for teams against moving). Again - simple legal fact.
For reasons known primarily to Sam Hamman and his Legal Counsel, Wimbledon/Franchise FC chose not to defer to the law for a definitive opinion to force this option through- possibly because they were in reality only using the threat of moving to Dublin, Belfast etc as a weapon to force the FA into agreeing to them re-locating within England, or possibly because the big prize for English league clubs is European success, so it would be self-defeating to do anything that would exclude you from the possibility of that. As a supporter and shareholder of AFC Wimbledon since the very start (the separate club set-up by Wimbledon fans), the whole Wimbledon FC/Milton Keynes Dons saga is painfully though well etched into my memory.
Sorry to bang on and on about all of this, CTID, but the EU law on this matter is very clear and has been reinforced in the High Court of one of the EU's member nations. And in case I got the wrong end of the stick, a former member of the UEFA management Committee has also personally confirmed the above to me. I hope I'm not sounding rude, but I don't see what there is to not understand here ?
When did that come in? I think Tottenham's last trip into Europe (2000, I think) was as a result of reaching the semis of the FA Cup - the other semi-finallists (Newcastle, Arsenal and Man Utd) all qualified for the Champions' League.
You're right. There's an exception to the rule if both Finalists are already Euro-qualified. You're supposed to partake in the Highest level of European competition that you're eligible for (though you can choose not to participate at all if you like, as a lot of English prem clubs do with the Inter-Toto.).
Therefore, if both finalists in a Cup Final were already Champions League nominees, the Euro cup slot would be legitimately offered to one of the beatn Semi-finalists instead. How you would decide between the 2 would be the individual league's responsibility (god knows how - probably final league position between the 2 would be fairest).
As the English-based Welsh teams have never been Champions League nominees, and look unlikely to be so for the immediate future, if 2 of them got to the FAW Cup final and Wales refused to nominate them for Europe, no-one else could be legitimately nominated for that Euro slot instead, so Wales would lose it that year.
The EU recognises that football is organised on a national basis. Accordingly if a big player moves into a territory and by playing outside the jurisdiction effectively wipes out the domestic League that is anti-competitive too.
Monopolies are not allowed under EU Law and a One Club country such as the scenario outlined above would not be tolerated.
It was these provisions which the IFA were prepared to use to prevent Sam Hammam moving Wimbledon to Belfast. If he had successfully moved them to Cardiff that would have been interesting especially as Cardiff City were already operating in the English set-up. However that is now purely academic as he is now in charge of Cardiff City and the Dons are now in Milton Keynes.
I opposed the move of Wimbledon to Dublin or Belfast or anywhere outside England, and the organisation I was part of had a lot of moral support from the genuine Wimbledon fans. However by moving the club within England , there was nothing that anyone could do to prevent that under law, and
I fear that this may presage the beginning of franchising into European sport along the lines of US and Canadian professional sports.
To bring it back to the original point and the topic of the posting, only the English Premiership/Championship Chairmen stand in the way of Celtic or Rangers joining the English pyramid structure (please accept this as a legal fact, as quoted at length above and confirmed personally to me by a former UEFA Committe member).
With English football TV rights widely expected to take a big drop in value in their next re-negotiation - and with an end to the block-negotiation scenario also possible/likely - smaller clubs (i.e. the majority) in the Prem and the Championship are facing a very bleak financial future, and by consequence a bleak future on the pitch. Admitting the Old Firm into their league (with a generous pay-off for the 2 clubs that had to make way for them) appears the only obvious/easy way of preventing such a financial crisis, as it would significantly boost the value of English football's TV rights again. Therefore - it appears almost certain that this scenario will happen at some point in the future, and likely that it'll be in advance of the next round of TV rights re-negotiations.
If that happened, then Irish club football would become increasingly irrelevant. The most popular team in the country (Celtic) would now be playing in the most popular league in the country (the English system/premiership). Shels versus Rovers, or even Glentoran, would be less appealing and important to Joe Public when held-up against Celtic v Man Utd, Liverpool etc. And if an Old Firm move acted as an impetus towards a pan-European league, then Irish football would completely pale in significance.
Scottish league football would also be in huge financial trouble - robbed of practically all its TV Rights value, with crowds likely to be down as well (especially initially). At that point, combining Scottish, Irish and Welsh league clubs into some sort of Celtic League would seem a sensible option for all concerned. And arguably the only way of competing with the increased credibility and appeal of an Old Firm-enhanced Premiership.
Finally, to dismiss the concept of a soccer Celtic League purely on a perception that it hasn't worked for rugby (though I'd argue it has) is like rejecting the use of penicillin on bacteria just because it didn't work on cancer ! The 2 are completely incomparable sports - particularly so in Ireland and Scotland, where rugby is very far behind football in terms of popularity. Just because one broad concept is perceived not to have worked in one sport, doesn't mean the same concept couldn't work in a totally different sport with much deeper roots, greater popular appeal and a hugely different fan base.
hey both of you have put forward outstanding arguments. its like being present in a courtroom at a majort trial. one or both of you must be trained in law the way you word the whole arguments etc. very entertaining well done both of you. the court rests.
Seconded. What great reading. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything that Steve foresees happening. To add fuel to the fire of Celtic joining the Premiership, Dermot Desmond (the chairman and leading shareholder) speaks on the subject fairly regularly as being an aspiration for the club. It seems only a matter of time whatever anyone else thinks.
Structurally, I expect that Celtic and the other mob will be incorporated into the lower division of an expanded 32-team two-tier league. Come the time of the next TV deal, Sky (for it will be they who get the lion's share of coverage) will want to innovate and they'll see the OF as providing new spice. Ten extra clubs will keep the smaller Premiership and aspirant members from the Football League happy. Everyone (except those in the lower tiers of English football) will win.
Change is on the way. It's only a matter of when.
PP
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