A question of Religion

[exile]

the church of satan claims to be the most tolerant of religions im in whos with me

[exile]

honestly though i think the reality is most relgions are based on good old yarns past down from genaration to genaration and lets face it they are good stories but how much scientific proof is there at the moment that were all going to heaven or hell ???

[liam88]

his idiotic beliefs. He's the head of a supposedly well-intentioned organisation and he's downright evil.

I find that pretty insulting

re. Israel taking Palestine as 'Gods own people' i think it's more down to the fact everyone felt guilty for not being able to stop the holocaust...correct me if i'm wrong

[Éanna]

I find that pretty insulting

He is sheer and utter evil. I make no apologies for saying it. How many millions of lives could have been saved from AIDS but, no that isn't a christian thing to do at all

re. Israel taking Palestine as 'Gods own people' i think it's more down to the fact everyone felt guilty for not being able to stop the holocaust...correct me if i'm wrong

They were given it for that reason. But they believe they are entitled to it because god chose them to live there/

[finlma]

Re: The Pope,
His teachings of no contraception are certainly somewhat to blame for a lot of Aids in this world. The Catholic church is stuck in the 18th century and needs to be completely revamped.

Re: Israel
They have always claimed a right to the land of Israel and were given it as a sympathy vote after WWII. The biggest mistake ever made. Religion is largely to blame for the troubles in the Middle East and over the next 30 years we are going to see that area erupt into massive war.

[green goblin]

Whoa, there fellas!!!

Early on in this discussion, it was asked that the debate didn't descend down into the boring old religion is rubbish/ religion is not rubbish argument. It seems that's where it's going. We've had that before and it gets us nowhere.

The thread started with a query over what were the differences between Catholicism and protestantism, and spread out from there. If people want to expand and include reasoned arguments for atheism or agnosticism, then go right ahead, but please try and keep away from the descent into the "If you believe that then you're stupid" school of arguments. Thanks.

[Pat O' Banton]

Iraq-Iran: different factions within Islam were involved AFAIK.

Not really, old Sadam ran a secular regime, the primary concern like most of the wars in that area (save Palestine) was oil and who would be the local power broker in that area.

[lopez]

Whoa, there fellas!!!

Early on in this discussion, it was asked that the debate didn't descend down into the boring old religion is rubbish/ religion is not rubbish argument. It seems that's where it's going. We've had that before and it gets us nowhere.

It's funny how some people complain about being forced fed religion and then come on and force feed us with their own pack of lies. Eg: Pope's 'pure evil' . Pope will 'kill more people than communism in the third world'. Religion 'started WW1'. Well if you are going to go down that road, the Inquisition had nothing whatsoever to do with religion: It was just the Spanish getting rid of traitors and people of other ethnic groups (in the same way that Stalin and his successors' areligious USSR did). In fact by Eanna's own list of wars to do with religion I'd tick nationalism beside all of them. And of course it must have been pretty peaceful in Western Europe before the reformation. Ooops. Forgot about the 100 years war for a minute. And of course this intolerence can't pass by without resorting to fascistic tendencies. Ie: No religion to be discussed or promoted outside the home. TV not to promote or indulge in religion, especially the religion of 95% of the state.

The worst thing about this is that these statements are from someone I know ISN'T stupid nor ignorant. Eanna, I use contraception when and where I choose. I've got JUST 3 kids and what by most people's margins is a healthy sex life. When I go to church I see people with equally small families. How do you think we all manage that? Use a thermometer before a sh*g. I lived with my wife before marriage. The priest who married us knew it too. He still married us.

Exile: You talk about scientific proof but what is the proof that we descend from monkeys? If they are 'our cousins' we'd at least be able to produce a hybrid (like a mule) with monkeys without referring to embryo manipulation. But apart from Social-Darwinism (that Irish and Blacks are the missing link) and a few unfortunates in 19C travelling circuses no one seems to come up with why this has never happened. That is why - and here is the key word - its called the THEORY of Evolution. As for the big bang THEORY? Life from total sterility: As much 'an old yarn' as a bloke in a beard making the universe in seven days. If you are going to refer to science, with the intention of sounding clever, at least refer to Scientific FACT not Scientific (unproven) theory.

[green goblin]

It's funny how some people complain about being forced fed religion and then come on and force feed us with their own pack of lies. Eg: Pope's 'pure evil' . Pope will 'kill more people than communism in the third world'. Religion 'started WW1'.

While on this point, I think it worth pointing out that, to me at least, atheism seems to be a belief in iteself. It is not an absence of belief, as is implied, but in fact a belief/certainty that there's nothing out there.
This is as unprovable as belief. And therefore requires as much faith... Just as you cannot logically prove God, you cannot logically disprove him.

As for the "All wars are started by religion" argument... Well, to quote the well known atheist Marx, "The history of all struggle is a class struggle".

[lopez]

While on this point, I think it worth pointing out that, to me at least, atheism seems to be a belief in iteself. It is not an absence of belief, as is implied, but in fact a belief/certainty that there's nothing out there.
This is as unprovable as belief. And therefore requires as much faith... Just as you cannot logically prove God, you cannot logically disprove him.

Wonderfully put. I'm putting you forward for a spot on the Halleluiah Channel. They're looking for someone to fill the early evening slot between 'The Big Bird Sermon for Kids' and 'An Evening with the Rev. W. McCrea.'

[green goblin]

Wonderfully put. I'm putting you forward for a spot on the Halleluiah Channel. They're looking for someone to fill the early evening slot between 'The Big Bird Sermon for Kids' and 'An Evening with the Rev. W. McCrea.'

Can't wait. My clapping just got even happier.

[Plastic Paddy]

'An Evening with the Rev. W. McCrea.'

I shared a house with a niece of his whilst at university, and as a result I once had the dubious pleasure of an evening in the man's company. "Dour" was invented just to describe people like him. The type of individual for whom Rich Tea biscuits are too extravagant.

His niece wouldn't dare tell him I was papish Irish, so I made sure he found out. Cue an awkward silence. Still, it was better than actually talking to him...

PP

[crc]

why could there not be a minutes silence instead of the angelus- that would allow people of all faiths (or none) to contemplate/think/ignore it as they pleased- instead of being specific to any religion.

That's just like saying there should be no Eircom League coverage on RTE, just some general sports magazine 'cos that will cover everyone! The fact is that a lot of people get alot of benefit from RTE broadcasting the Angelus. Notwithstanding whether RTE should or shouldn't broadcast stuff about other faiths, Irish Catholics pay their licence fee too and are entitled to a program aimed at them (all 60 seconds of it).

[green goblin]

I shared a house with a niece of his whilst at university, and as a result I once had the dubious pleasure of an evening in the man's company. "Dour" was invented just to describe people like him. The type of individual for whom Rich Tea biscuits are too extravagant.
His niece wouldn't dare tell him I was papish Irish, so I made sure he found out. Cue an awkward silence. Still, it was better than actually talking to him...

PP

"Rich tea biscuits...." Genius.
Well done for refusing to be cowed by the old misery.

[Éanna]

It's funny how some people complain about being forced fed religion and then come on and force feed us with their own pack of lies.

I'm not force feeding anyone anything- its a discussion. What I'm saying isn't lies, just what I believe. I have not rubbished anyone's beliefs at all.

Eg: Pope's 'pure evil' . Pope will 'kill more people than communism in the third world'. Religion 'started WW1'.

He is. He will. I didn't say that.

Well if you are going to go down that road, the Inquisition had nothing whatsoever to do with religion: It was just the Spanish getting rid of traitors and people of other ethnic groups (in the same way that Stalin and his successors' areligious USSR did).

agreed. But was it not backed by the church. Like I've been at pains to point out, I'm not condemning Catholics for the appalling behaviour of their hierarchy. That would be like saying (to use your example) that everyone who read Marx was evil. I didn't and wouldn't say that.

In fact by Eanna's own list of wars to do with religion I'd tick nationalism beside all of them.

so would I. But nationalism is about identity and religion is a huge part of identity. Its all inextricably linked.

And of course this intolerence can't pass by without resorting to fascistic tendencies. Ie: No religion to be discussed or promoted outside the home. TV not to promote or indulge in religion, especially the religion of 95% of the state.

I made that comment slightly tongue in cheek- I know that will never happen, but what I was getting at is that I believe its a very corrupting force in society in many ways, and that belief is a private thing, so there's no need for it to be broadcast the way it is. And I didn't say TV wasn't to indulge religion, in fact I suggested it adopt a more broadened approach and deal with other religions- 95% is a figure thats very debatable.

The worst thing about this is that these statements are from someone I know ISN'T stupid nor ignorant. Eanna, I use contraception when and where I choose. I've got JUST 3 kids and what by most people's margins is a healthy sex life. When I go to church I see people with equally small families. How do you think we all manage that? Use a thermometer before a sh*g. I lived with my wife before marriage. The priest who married us knew it too. He still married us.

This is another thing that I don't get. If you don't agree with the policies/practices of the church why are you a member? Its like joining a political party because you agree with one or two policies but not the others Also, given the fact that probably a majority of Catholics DO adopt this approach to their church (i.e. obeying what they chose) why has the Church not moved on to accept the beliefs of its members- why do people stay members of something which they profoundly disagree with.

[lopez]

I shared a house with a niece of his whilst at university, and as a result I once had the dubious pleasure of an evening in the man's company. "Dour" was invented just to describe people like him. The type of individual for whom Rich Tea biscuits are too extravagant.

His niece wouldn't dare tell him I was papish Irish, so I made sure he found out. Cue an awkward silence. Still, it was better than actually talking to him...

No dissing Flavor Crea on my time, PP. I've got an album of his called '20 Greatest Gospel Greats'. It's perfect for when you want to wrap up a party sharpish (I had to wheel it out two days before Christmas). It even gets rid of any persistent Jehovah's Witness that won't take no for an answer.

BTW: I know a gentleman never discloses these sort of things but did you...ahem...with...ahem...Flavor's niece?

[lopez]

I'm not force feeding anyone anything- its a discussion. What I'm saying isn't lies, just what I believe. I have not rubbished anyone's beliefs at all.

You've not rubbished other peoples beliefs (others have though) but you've done what you accuse religions of doing.

He is. He will. I didn't say that.

You said he was 'responsible' for more deaths in Africa than communism. Aids is spread mostly by multiple partners and the lack of any barrier contraception, no? Well why don't people stick to one partner? This isn't a religious question. AFAIK, all atheists are not swingers and adulterers. This commitment is universal. If you are talking about birth control, that's another thing. But King Karoly isn't the African CEO of Durex. And you've always got the 'John Holmes' method if all else fails.

agreed. But was it not backed by the church. Like I've been at pains to point out, I'm not condemning Catholics for the appalling behaviour of their hierarchy. That would be like saying (to use your example) that everyone who read Marx was evil. I didn't and wouldn't say that.

I was being tongue in cheek myself. The inquisition was (almost) wholly religiously driven - I'd say wholly because there was further harassment of 'conversos' after they converted: e.g. Having a day off on Saturday, refusing to eat pork, etc. In addition the nazis persecution of the Jews was on wholly racial rather than religious lines. For example: Christian converts were gassed; the Nurenmburg laws were that Jews would be classed on racial lines; Jews were classified as thus with just one 'racial' Jewish grandparent. German converts to Judaism would not have been gassed although if they did not renounce their new religion they probably would have ended up in Auschwitz, like other dissenting religions that refused to acknowledge the nazi state (Jehovah's Witnesses principally and 'maverick' members of the established churches).

so would I. But nationalism is about identity and religion is a huge part of identity. Its all inextricably linked.

It is not always inextricably linked. Some of the most vocal anti-Irish media people during the troubles in Britain were RC. Eg: Paul Johnson, the cartoonist JAK, Robert Kilroy-Silk.

On the other hand many in the pantheon of Irish republicanism/nationalism are Protestant. When was the last time that there was a civil war over religion in Europe that was between two groups of the same nationality but different religion? In Britain it was 1640's (I'm being generous as this was a royal versus parliament war0. Holland and Germany (the two countries in Europe with greater RC/Protestant divisions than Britain (Germany admittedly only around since 1871)) haven't had AFAIK a civil war since then over religion. Yugoslavia is split on national lines although religious allegiance is stronger within the national identity. Spain was religion part of a rightist coalition including fascists against a leftist coalition.

I made that comment slightly tongue in cheek- I know that will never happen, but what I was getting at is that I believe its a very corrupting force in society in many ways, and that belief is a private thing, so there's no need for it to be broadcast the way it is. And I didn't say TV wasn't to indulge religion, in fact I suggested it adopt a more broadened approach and deal with other religions- 95% is a figure thats very debatable.

What I'd agree is corrupting is church dictating to non members. In Ireland this was through divorce and contraception which discriminated against non-RCs. Also a broader acceptance of other beliefs in school (a form of secularisation but not to the point of banning headscarves as in France). However, while RC attendance has dropped in recent years - through nothing to do with God but everything to do with pervert priests - Ireland still has a high church attendance.

This is another thing that I don't get. If you don't agree with the policies/practices of the church why are you a member? Its like joining a political party because you agree with one or two policies but not the others Also, given the fact that probably a majority of Catholics DO adopt this approach to their church (I.a. obeying what they chose) why has the Church not moved on to accept the beliefs of its members- why do people stay members of something which they profoundly disagree with.

You have a point. I am a member but it hasn't been without difficulty. My parents left and do not go to church apart from the usual (marriages, deaths, FACT, etc). The things I disagree with the RC church are things that have been added and are nothing to do with the bible, are open to interpretation or are now irrelevant. Priests not marrying, the ban on women being priests, contraception, abortion (rape), homosexuality, sex within marriage. And besides, what is discarding one organised religion for another going to prove. As you suggest, religion does not need organised religion.

[exile]

enough is enough lads is there any scientific proof of the good man above or the great man below

[Schumi]

The thing that I don't get about religion is that people claim to be practising Catholics but ignore church teaching on contraception, extra-marital sex, etc., don't believe in trans-substantiation, don't believe in miracles, don't believe in papal infallibility, don't believe in hell, etc., etc. Why can't they just admit to themselves that they're not Catholics.

[lopez]

enough is enough lads is there any scientific proof of the good man above or the great man below

Any scientific proof that we are related to monkeys (Wayne Rooney obvious exception)?

The thing that I don't get about religion is that people claim to be practising Catholics but ignore church teaching on contraception, extra-marital sex, etc., don't believe in trans-substantiation, don't believe in miracles, don't believe in papal infallibility, don't believe in hell, etc., etc. Why can't they just admit to themselves that they're not Catholics.

I'm not a Catholic.