'Final Deal' Will it be as big as GFA?

[dortie]

As for the issue of why there's no pressure on the UDA etc to disarm, the argument is totally straightforward as far as I can see. the IRA are linked to Sinn Féin. SF want into government. The deal is that they don't get into government while the IRA has guns. The UDA (or any other loyalist paramilitary group) are not linked to either the DUP or the UUP (at least not in the way SF and the IRA are) so it doesn't come into it. I'm sure if any of the smaller loyalist parties which "represent" loyalist paramilitaries wanted to form part of the government they'd be told the same. It is a valid point in fairness, much as I hate saying it. Of course demilitarisation should happen in tandem with this, and there should NOT be an attempt to humiliate anyone, but I think the time has come for the IRA to take the moral high ground and do whats needed- they'd gain a lot of respect for it.

Try telling that to the Catholics of 1969 who had no weapons to protect themselves when Loyalists burned them all out of their homes. That argument is not viable.

[Rovers Fellow!]

There is no way Paisley and DUP should be allowed dictate the issue of decommisioning. At the end of the day, they wont even speak directly to Sinn Fein, until recently they wouldnt even be in the same room as them. The photographs issue is ridicoulous. They came up with that simply because they knew it was unrealisitc and that the IRA would never agree to it, then they could throw all the blame for not having a deal on Sinn Fein. Even if the photographs were to happen, the DUP would just say that they want more photos or come up with another silly excuse to stall the process. The IRA by the sounds of it, are willing to dump all its arms by Christmas, and Paisley and Co are jeopardising this simply because they want a few photos to show off to theyre bigotted followers.

Just on the point of weapons. Perhaps the Unionist parties are not linked in the same way as SF and the IRA, but many of the weapons held by Unionist paramilitaries came from the Ulster Resistance movement set up by Paisley. This shows what a hypocrite he is, saying that he would never talk to paramilitaries, yet he set up an armed organisation in the past, also the DUP and UUP have been meeting Unionist paramilitaries all through the troubles and today still talk to them regularly on the Loyalist Commission, which is a group which meets regularly made up of all the different Unionist groups. And the reason Paisley and Co say they wont meet SF is because they are linked to an armed group. What a bunch of bigotted hypocrites they are.

[patsh]

Just on the point of weapons. Perhaps the Unionist parties are not linked in the same way as SF and the IRA, but many of the weapons held by Unionist paramilitaries came from the Ulster Resistance movement set up by Paisley. This shows what a hypocrite he is, saying that he would never talk to paramilitaries, yet he set up an armed organisation in the past, also the DUP and UUP have been meeting Unionist paramilitaries all through the troubles and today still talk to them regularly on the Loyalist Commission, which is a group which meets regularly made up of all the different Unionist groups.

Martin McGuinness said on "Hearts and Minds" last night that he had asked John De Chastelain about these Ulster Resistance weapons and De Chastelain has promised to ask British security forces about this. Willie McCrea and the Paisley pup were/are close confidants of "King Rat" Wright, and the pup has been running a campaign for an independant inquiry into his murder while at the same time bellowing out his opposition to inquiries into the Finucane and (her name is gone out of my head, the female lawyer murdered by a car bomb, Rosemary ?) murders.
The IRA might be unreasonable about the photograph, but lets be honest, the DUP are an utterly bigoted and sectarian organisation. They want their extreme reading of one version of the bible to prevail, anyone who doesn't agree with them is a heretic or "anti-Christ", and that includes Methodists, Baptists and other Protestant denominations, they are vehemently anti-Catholic, they have a middle-ages view of the world, and what they really want is a statelet where there own extreme ideas prevail to the exclusion of any other form of thinking or belief.
It's about time these people were shown up for what they are, not what they claim to be. Remember this is the party that tacitly supported and encouraged the stoning, abuse, harrassment, dowsing with urine, bomb throwing and assault of 4, 5 and 6 year old little girls on their way to school.
The IRA have a large proportion of mudering scum, but the DUP are every bit as disgusting, low and filled with total scumbags, they just present themselvr as being "respectable"....

[liam88]

Brilliantly put Patsh!

i was Rosemary Nelson-God bless her soul. If I remember rightly she was killed around the same area as Robert Hammil-God bless his soul.

[fosterdollar]

The UDA (or any other loyalist paramilitary group) are not linked to either the DUP or the UUP (at least not in the way SF and the IRA are) so it doesn't come into it.

Horsesh!t. Members of the DUP have often shared podiums with loyalist paramilitaries. To say that they have no links is false, even if they are unofficial and slightly tenuous. There is an onus on every unionist/loyalist party to appease the paramilitaries on the 'same side'

[Lionel Ritchie]

Martin McGuinness said on "Hearts and Minds" last night that he had asked John De Chastelain about these Ulster Resistance weapons and De Chastelain has promised to ask British security forces about this. Willie McCrea and the Paisley pup were/are close confidants of "King Rat" Wright, and the pup has been running a campaign for an independant inquiry into his murder while at the same time bellowing out his opposition to inquiries into the Finucane and (her name is gone out of my head, the female lawyer murdered by a car bomb, Rosemary ?) murders.
The IRA might be unreasonable about the photograph, but lets be honest, the DUP are an utterly bigoted and sectarian organisation. They want their extreme reading of one version of the bible to prevail, anyone who doesn't agree with them is a heretic or "anti-Christ", and that includes Methodists, Baptists and other Protestant denominations, they are vehemently anti-Catholic, they have a middle-ages view of the world, and what they really want is a statelet where there own extreme ideas prevail to the exclusion of any other form of thinking or belief.
It's about time these people were shown up for what they are, not what they claim to be. Remember this is the party that tacitly supported and encouraged the stoning, abuse, harrassment, dowsing with urine, bomb throwing and assault of 4, 5 and 6 year old little girls on their way to school.
The IRA have a large proportion of mudering scum, but the DUP are every bit as disgusting, low and filled with total scumbags, they just present themselvr as being "respectable"....

Sorry mate I can't let that one pass. In calling the DUP (for whom I've no love incidently) a bigoted organisation I think you're smudging the lines between Paisleys party and Paisleys church. your maths are way off for starters. While it's a virtual no brainer that just about all adherents to Paisleys church vote for him in the ballot box (there's about 30,000 Free Presbs in NI) -it's a fact that less than one in ten of those who vote for him or his party (upwards of 300,000) in any election are actually Free Presbyterians. In fact his right hand man - the fragrant Peter (and of course Iris the missus) are Elim Pentecostalists (whatever the fcuk that is )

I don't have much time for the DUP. I think they've offered little by way of real leadership to their support. But we should n't over emotionalise things in trying to frame they're reasoning.

[patsh]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, the f*cking assh*le PDs have now decided to get involved in the North, for the first time ever, and decided that they want more committments from the IRA than even the DUP want, and they, the PDs, will NOT AGREE to any deal falling short of their demands! They are demanding an extra condition, i.e. that all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity. Now this is a total load of horsesh*t, as how is this possible to ensure? They are also declaring that the "McCabe deal is off the table".
PDs are up to two things here
1. They have judged the mood of the people on the McCabe question and see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon (wrongly) thinking there are votes in it for them.
2. May be looking for a reason to get out of the coalition with FF?

I would love an election now. Mostly because I think we will see that little shower of c*nts get even less than their pathetic 6% of the vote they got the last time, and it would probably spell the end of the Dáil career of Gruppenfuehrer McDowell.

Conor, remember the words of Brian Cowen(?) "When in doubt, leave them out" !

[dortie]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, the f*cking assh*le PDs have now decided to get involved in the North, for the first time ever, and decided that they want more committments from the IRA than even the DUP want, and they, the PDs, will NOT AGREE to any deal falling short of their demands! They are demanding an extra condition, i.e. that all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity. Now this is a total load of horsesh*t, as how is this possible to ensure? They are also declaring that the "McCabe deal is off the table".
PDs are up to two things here
1. They have judged the mood of the people on the McCabe question and see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon (wrongly) thinking there are votes in it for them.
2. May be looking for a reason to get out of the coalition with FF?

I would love an election now. Mostly because I think we will see that little shower of c*nts get even less than their pathetic 6% of the vote they got the last time, and it would probably spell the end of the Dáil career of Gruppenfuehrer McDowell.

Conor, remember the words of Brian Cowen(?) "When in doubt, leave them out" !

Do you think for one minute the IRA will listen to the PDs Dont worry about it at all.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, the f*cking assh*le PDs have now decided to get involved in the North, for the first time ever, and decided that they want more committments from the IRA than even the DUP want, and they, the PDs, will NOT AGREE to any deal falling short of their demands! They are demanding an extra condition, i.e. that all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity. Now this is a total load of horsesh*t, as how is this possible to ensure? They are also declaring that the "McCabe deal is off the table".
PDs are up to two things here
1. They have judged the mood of the people on the McCabe question and see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon (wrongly) thinking there are votes in it for them.
2. May be looking for a reason to get out of the coalition with FF?

I would love an election now. Mostly because I think we will see that little shower of c*nts get even less than their pathetic 6% of the vote they got the last time, and it would probably spell the end of the Dáil career of Gruppenfuehrer McDowell.

Conor, remember the words of Brian Cowen(?) "When in doubt, leave them out" !

Bejaysis patsh you do have the painters in at the moment don't you.
Just on the PDs 'judging the public mood' -the PDs and everyone else has known for a long time that most people down here don't want to see these murdering fcukers released. Personnally yeah I think they'll have to be released -though it sickens me. Brave soldiers for irelands freedom indeed -robbing Irish peoples savings, dole and pensions from a post office and then butchering a policeman who tried to stop them.

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?

The PDs Liz O'Donnell by the way has been talking the most common sense in relation to the IRA for years now. She was the first southern politician outside Sinn Fein who said we should stop harping on about IRA decommisisioning and start leaning on Sinn fein to sign up to the police board instead. SF sign up to policing and all the rest logically follows.

[drinkfeckarse]

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?

I would say it's unreasonable because it's unrealistic and impossible. I mean do they want them to all line up in a televised event and take the "pledge" like the President or something. Show themselves in public!

And even if they did release a statement saying they pledge not to engage again, who's to say they'd stick to it at the end of the day if things changed? And if some bomb ever went off again, they could easily say that it was new recruits who hadn't taken the pledge. It's laughable.

[patsh]

Bejaysis patsh you do have the painters in at the moment don't you.

Thats what I like to see, a clear calm and accurate analysis of my post....

Just on the PDs 'judging the public mood' -the PDs and everyone else has known for a long time that most people down here don't want to see these murdering fcukers released. Personnally yeah I think they'll have to be released -though it sickens me. Brave soldiers for irelands freedom indeed -robbing Irish peoples savings, dole and pensions from a post office and then butchering a policeman who tried to stop them.

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?.

1. The PDs have NEVER taken an active interest in the North of this country, outside of the usual mumbled platitudes of IRA bad, Sinn Fein bad blah, blah blah....Say what you like about Ahern, and I usually do, whether you agree with him or not on the issue, to even come out and say that the possibility is there that those killers will be released is in some sense a very brave thing to do, as he knew just how unpopular it would be. Now the opposition have criticised it, but they don't know as much about the situation as the PDs do, yet I didn't see Harney, she who can't keep her mouth shut, open her big gob once to agree with Ahern or even say that she disagress with him. She has been a quite little girl, but now they get all "moral" and gallop off back to the high ground to let "sources" imply that they are unhappy.

2. It's "unreasonable" becuse its impossible to ensure. I will make it simple for you.
IRA leadership says yes we agree to refrain from criminal activity. 1 week later "former" IRA man is arrested for burglary/assault, lets say. So now where are we? Does this mean the whole deal is off again? Are the leadership of Sinn Fein responsible for the actions of everybody who claims to be a "republican" ?

The PDs Liz O'Donnell by the way has been talking the most common sense in relation to the IRA for years now. She was the first southern politician outside Sinn Fein who said we should stop harping on about IRA decommisisioning and start leaning on Sinn fein to sign up to the police board instead. SF sign up to policing and all the rest logically follows.

Liz and her leaders are superb at doing just that, talking about it. McDowell talks endlessly about everything, there isn't a topic he can keep his gob shut on, so does Harney and any number of PD "Senators" who can't even get elected. Turn on any radio station and there they will be, talking about something. The PDs have been in Government for years, why didn't they DO something about the North instead of TALKING about it?

[patsh]

I love it. Shades of Mary Robsinson resigning from the Labour Party because of the supposed failure to consult adequately with the Unionist Party prior to the Anglo Irish Agreement (that HAD to be one of the funniest things ever, as if Mary stamping her foot would change the course of history), or John Bruton's cluckings about protecting the Unionists. Or that ****** Conor Cruise O'Brien going on about how we don't look after our brethern...forgetting about the full scale of democratic, military, political and legal power that they could call on.

1. Robinson resigned from the Labour party. She actually DID something about something she disagreed with.
2. CCO'B was a "bloody unionist" anyway.
3. The above episodes are hardly the same thing as a Government party deciding they would stop a peace settlement, unless THEIR demands are met, is it?

[Lionel Ritchie]

I would say it's unreasonable because it's unrealistic and impossible. I mean do they want them to all line up in a televised event and take the "pledge" like the President or something. Show themselves in public!

And even if they did release a statement saying they pledge not to engage again, who's to say they'd stick to it at the end of the day if things changed? And if some bomb ever went off again, they could easily say that it was new recruits who hadn't taken the pledge. It's laughable.

That's all fair and true dfa. I agree it'd be impossible to police -but there's nothing wrong in wanting the IRA to issue a 'cease and desist' instruction to it's membership as part of a final wind down rather than accepting it as a given that many of them will move into organised crime full time (which too many of them have done already it should be added).

Just on the photographs thing -while i'd love to see it -or videotape or whatever -I'm not sure it'd be at all helpful. I don't think Paisleys being practical on this and it' symptomatic of his and the DUPs almost autistic inability to percieve a scenario from any angle but their own.

Front page Photos of IRA weapons being dumped off the side of a fishing boat and bubbling down to the bottom of the celtic sea (apparently the mechanism by which the last major act of IRA decommissioning was executed) will have a very negative effect in interface areas, border areas/ West Belfast/Derry and could move people in the direction of fringe nutcases like the IRSP, RSF etc..-regardless of how much of a trophy Paisley can make of it in his Ballymena heartland. He's not after proof -he's after election litrerature.

Noises have been made from republican circles in recent days about the possibility of another witness -could that be a unionist politician perhaps? maybe Paisley himself? DUP supporters have been saying for years that he's never put them wrong and 'if it's good enough for the big man -it's good enough for us'. Now's a chance to put that to the test. Bring the Doc along -and sure he can describe whatever he sees in glorious technicolour to whoever wants to listen to him.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Liz and her leaders are superb at doing just that, talking about it. McDowell talks endlessly about everything, there isn't a topic he can keep his gob shut on, so does Harney and any number of PD "Senators" who can't even get elected. Turn on any radio station and there they will be, talking about something. The PDs have been in Government for years, why didn't they DO something about the North instead of TALKING about it?

So first their wrong coz they don't talk about the north and then they're wrong because they do. What would you like them to "do" about the north? Invade it maybe? Maybe it's what they "do" about the north that you don't like. like maybe highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.

[dortie]

highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.

Can i ask you a question, when you refer to Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies as you term it, do you ever take time to think they represent around 55% of the Catholic vote up here, and thats not including the 10% or so of republicans who are against the Belfast agreement and dont vote. Your classification in terms of criminality would not be appreciated. Are you a democrat ?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Can i ask you a question, when you refer to Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies as you term it, do you ever take time to think they represent around 55% of the Catholic vote up here, and thats not including the 10% or so of republicans who are against the Belfast agreement and dont vote. Your classification in terms of criminality would not be appreciated. Are you a democrat ?

Yes I am a democrat ...and an Irish nationalist incidently. I acknowledge that something like the figures you mention vote for Sinn Fein and I respect SFs mandate. that doesn't mean I don't regret that those people who voted for them chose to turn a blind eye or are oblivious to what lies behind/beneath/within Sinn Fein. That those people might not like my "classification in terms of criminality" is something I can do little about and care about less.
Ask yourself something ...why have people crossed over from SDLP to Sinn Fein in sizeable numbers?(cue speech from someone about "dynamic vision for an Ireland of equals") Could it be thatvpeople know that the SDLP don't have the same how shall i put it -leverage as Sinn fein when it comes to negotiations? and hence the SDLP -even if they represented the entire nationalist population of the north -don't have the same bargaining chips as Sinn fein.

[patsh]

So first their wrong coz they don't talk about the north and then they're wrong because they do. What would you like them to "do" about the north? Invade it maybe? Maybe it's what they "do" about the north that you don't like. like maybe highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.

1.They are only talking about the North when it suits them.
2. The PD HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the North of this country. Where are the plans, ideas, propositions, proposals, meetings? They just TALK about it, so people like you can be impressed by the verbiage.
3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.
4.I see you spout the usual nonsensical type of "argument" when you have a "debate". Just keep posting about how bad the IRA is and how evil they are, and thats supposed to prove some point you are trying make.

[dortie]

Yes I am a democrat ...and an Irish nationalist incidently. I acknowledge that something like the figures you mention vote for Sinn Fein and I respect SFs mandate. that doesn't mean I don't regret that those people who voted for them chose to turn a blind eye or are oblivious to what lies behind/beneath/within Sinn Fein. That those people might not like my "classification in terms of criminality" is something I can do little about and care about less.
Ask yourself something ...why have people crossed over from SDLP to Sinn Fein in sizeable numbers?(cue speech from someone about "dynamic vision for an Ireland of equals") Could it be thatvpeople know that the SDLP don't have the same how shall i put it -leverage as Sinn fein when it comes to negotiations? and hence the SDLP -even if they represented the entire nationalist population of the north -don't have the same bargaining chips as Sinn fein.

The people who moved over to SF are all fully aware of SF and indeed the IRA through the years, but suppose you still consider them as 'led down the garden path'....

The SDLP never had Irish Unity as a priority through the years SF did, there is your biggest reason for the change in vote. Plus the younger generation of catholics are not prepared to sit back and be dominated by Unionists anymore. Who will voice their opinions without backing down ? The answer was in the vote.

[Lionel Ritchie]

1.They are only talking about the North when it suits them.
2. The PD HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the North of this country. Where are the plans, ideas, propositions, proposals, meetings? They just TALK about it, so people like you can be impressed by the verbiage.
3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.
4.I see you spout the usual nonsensical type of "argument" when you have a "debate". Just keep posting about how bad the IRA is and how evil they are, and thats supposed to prove some point you are trying make.

Oh here we go -so people "like me" can be impressed by the verbiage -what? like people "like you" can be impressed by sinn feins big bang gunshot boom boom noises?

If you read my post I said the IRA is up to it's eyeballs in criminal activity and that the funds are finding their way to sinn fein -with whom of course it shares some members.

the Minister for Justice got his information from the garda siochana so there's little point in him telling them something they know only too well.

And as for your claim that I spout the "usual nonsensical" argument about the IRA being evil and bad -well I've never actually done that but as you mention it -yeah -blowing up children, murdering civilians, torturing victims, executing unarmed mothers, killing farmers who called the cops when they found weapons in their barnyard, "disapearring" people, intimidation, extorion, racketeering, smuggling and generally being parasitic gypstains on the underpants of the country makes them a shower of evil, bad *******s from where I'm standing.

[Colm]

3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.

I think you're spot on. Firstly, I don't doubt for a second that they are involved in criminal activities and I'm not a fan of either Sinn Fein or the IRA but that's not the point. The point is that McDowell is making these accusations without any proof whatsoever, if he had any evidence he'd have done something about it. The man is a bumbling buffoon and a facist clown, this is just one example of his carry on and imo FF would be a lot better off if they weren't in coalition with McDowell and his PD cronies.