if someone breaks into your home........

**noby** · 07/12/2004, 9:06 AM

If I ever found myself in that situation I would hope that (a) they would leg it out the door, or (b), I use enough reasonable force that they're not likely to retaliate in a hurry. That to me is reasonable force
Unfortunatley I don't play golf, but I'm sure a hurley would suffice.

And don't give me this hungry children to feed...

**Jim Smith** · 07/12/2004, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Peadar

I genuinely hope that your home isn't violated but I can assure you that if you were a victim of such a crime, you'd be singing from our song sheet. It's a horrible feeling of utter vulnerability!
It's very easy to be pragmatic and say material things can be replaced but it's about knowing that a potentially dangerous person, without regard for the law, was within touching distance of you and your family.

The feeling of being violated is one of the biggist problems. My flat in Glasgow got done years ago and I still remenber the feeling in my stomach when evrything I had had been ransacked and the police were there with a 'well what do you expect us to do about it, nothing much was taken' attitude.

**noby** · 07/12/2004, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?

Possibly. But no-ones talking about shooting here.

**Macy** · 07/12/2004, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

BTW, for anyone who feels Tony Martin was some hero when he shot a 16 year old in the back from 12 foot with a shotgun, I would also point out that the shotgun was illegally held as he had his licence removed when he shot at a car previously. Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?

Or was he a scared old farmer who was getting harrassed by scumbags? Do you think the 16 year old would've been running if he hadn't had a shotgun? Tony Martin would've been just another statistic of a vulnerable man beaten up and burgled if he'd jumped out and shouted "Stop, or I call the police".

**the 12 th man** · 07/12/2004, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

His neighbours gave evidence that it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. He may have been scared, they may have been scumbags, they may even have been prepared to give him a hiding, but because he used the kid for target practice and killed him we'll never know.

most people would not argue with you about this (including the police guy last night).this incident did not help the case of the burgled person as the farmer was not a suitable firearm holder.

notwithstanding this,the rule of thumb should be:break into someones house and if it goes pearshaped (for the robber) well tough sh*t.

**Macy** · 07/12/2004, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

His neighbours gave evidence that it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. He may have been scared, they may have been scumbags, they may even have been prepared to give him a hiding, but because he used the kid for target practice and killed him we'll never know.

Well I started by saying that I didn't agree with guns coming into play, but still the little sh�t got what was coming. Personally I'd rather he got a crack around the head with a club, rather than killed, but that's where my sympathy stops. If he wasn't where he wasn't supposed to be, nothing would've happened to him.

**Jim Smith** · 07/12/2004, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

Are you arguing that people should be allowed to take the law into their own hands because of the inadequacy of the crime prevention services?

No. I'm simply trying to get across the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that you can experience if you get robbed.

**fosterdollar** · 07/12/2004, 9:34 AM

A mate of mine had an intruder to his flat in Rathmines. He managed to give the guy a few digs and slaps and kept him subdued till the cops arrived. Granted the guy has some martial arts knowledge and he's quite tall but as he said, the fella who broke in was a bit of a string of **** probably trying to fund some gear for the night.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think it is fair to say that kicking the snot of someone solely for breaking into your gaff is okay, per se. However, I think you should be entitled to keep the use of force a small step higher than what they are using on you, given the circumstances. That is to say, if you meet them in the hall, confront them and they start legging it then I would say you are entitled to swing for him or whatever but not start throwing bricks and stuff at him. Furthermore, if the intruder was to be aggressive, then the use of offensive weapons would be acceptable. I don't like the idea of loose laws on guns for obvious, aforementioned reasons. Having said that, if I was struggling with a thug in the kitchen and getting a bit of hiding as well, if a knife or similar sharp implement came to hand, he'd be getting it in the arm/leg for sure.

**Peadar** · 07/12/2004, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?

Conor, I think you're trying to discredit our argument simply on the basis that one individual went too far with regard to defending his home.
Bear in mind that this happened in England, not Ireland and he was punished by law for his actions. Most people will agree that this case was unusual and it certainly shouldn't be a template for a discussion on reasonable force.

If you want to discuss criminal cases from England why not discuss the case where a teacher was stabbed to death in his home in Chiswick, west London.
Robert Symons, a father of two young girls, was stabbed through the heart with a kitchen knife by an intruder.

Or John Monckton who died of stab wounds after he and his wife were attacked by an intruder in their Chelsea home. Their nine-year-old daughter, who was in the house at the time, called police. Can we even begin to imagine what the Monckton family are going through!? Should any child in civilised society witness such an atrocity!?

**tiktok** · 07/12/2004, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Conor74

If the person was an asylum seeker who had just got into this country, had a wife and children to feed, and wasn't as aware of the importance of private property as we are, would you rather him club him with a baton or beat him with a golf club?

I'll have the golf club.
If someone is breaking into and sneaking around someone's house at three in the morning, he knows well that he's doing something wrong, and he knows it's not his property. His circumstances might be unfortunate, but that will matter little to someone who perceives him as a threat to his own wife and child.

Conor, you quite correctly stated that laws can't be built based on the experiences of the victims, but equally so laws can't be based on hard cases or on the circumstances of the criminals. If the judge decides there are mitigating circumstances he/she can be more lenient in court.

A person confronted by an intruder in their home can't be expected to sit down and ask the criminal 'what drove you to a life of crime?'.

**razor** · 07/12/2004, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Conor74

But that doesn't mean they deserve to get a baseball bat across the head for nicking a �60 DVD player...

Yes, if its my DVD player, whatever the cost, basey bat it is.
If they intrude into my house and put me, my wife or my child under threat then they must face the consequences.

Originally Posted by Peadar

Some advice though, golf clubs aren't great in confined spaces because you can't get a decent swing.

I've often thought of that and may have to downgrade my basey bat to a baton or a small club like weapon.
I have a feeling Conors choice of weapon as always is a rather large wooden spoon.

**liam88** · 07/12/2004, 1:04 PM

Once someone is in your house you have a right to protect youself, your family and your poperty!
If you shoot them it's their own floggin' fault for being there-it isn't that the DVD is only worth �60 in the fact thtat they're in your hosue knicking it.
In England they have just changed the law so that burglars can now no longer sue you (yes it did happen!) if they hurt themselves while breaking into your house.
Another chap recently woke up to find his wife being groped....he got up and the intruder legged it knocking their 3 month old baby out of his crib, got an iron bar and hit the man. The man stabs the intruders arm-intruder legs it....man phones the police....tells them what happens....they arrest HIM and leave the wife skane up with a hurt baby and a broken window.
Lie in wait and attack them-it's THEIR fault-they shouldn't be there!
Me? I've got a hurley that I wouldn't be afraid to use

**Peadar** · 07/12/2004, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by razor

I have a feeling Conors choice of weapon as always is a rather large wooden spoon.

No, he's quite happy to make do with a slap on the wrist once he's determined their social circumstances warrant such an extreme response.

**liam88** · 07/12/2004, 1:07 PM

Aye Conor I know it's going to sound really rich coming from a 16 year old lad but having seen how much kids mean to their parents i'd be willing to bet my drum kit that you would be singing from another song sheet if/when you have children!

**the 12 th man** · 07/12/2004, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by liam88

but having seen how much kids mean to their parents i'd be willing to bet my drum kit that you would be singing from another song sheet if/when you have children!

you bet you do.
just wait til you feel like your child/children are under threat,
man o man if i caught some fcuker in my kids bedroom during the night............

...

other than santa that is

**strangeirish** · 07/12/2004, 1:43 PM

Sign on a house in Texas with a man pictured with a double barrelled shotgun
This place is guarded three times a week, you guess which one's!

**pete** · 07/12/2004, 2:13 PM

Its illegal to place barbedwire, broken glass or similar on the walls to your property.

I would think the courts would judge what was fair & reasonable to protect yourself in any intrusion. I would also think be allowed more force to prtect your being than actual property. Pursuing someone with a shotgun ain't gonna cut it in this country either.