Youth Development/ Coaching etc etc..

**Cowboy** · 27/12/2004, 3:53 PM

I am being anything but obtuse, you suggest that it is not possible without even trying, I suggest we do everything possible to create the conditions to achieve this.

Its the easiest thing in the world to call something a "pipe dream", be negative if you wish but I prefer to be positive about what can and will be achieved in the future.

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Don't be obtuse. I am not suggesting that we stop nurturing talent but that we accept that we will always be a feeder country to England and mainland Europe. We could do a better job with youngsters, preparing them for life abroad but that does not mean we could do the job ourselves in Ireland. Put another way, we have neither the size or the resources of a France so we have to be realistic.

As for that Danish team, well ask yourself this: How many of those players played for a domestic Danish team....

**Fergie's Son** · 27/12/2004, 4:30 PM

It's also easy to be unrealistic and make outlandish claims. I am not suggesting that we can't improve our systems in Ireland but it would be wrong to suggest that we can train and nurture international calibre talent in Ireland. At some point, those who are capable will need to go abroad. We can do our best to make sure that they are ready for that but we cannot do it all at home. Ireland and France is not comparing like with like. They have a much larger population and can sustain such development. We can't.

**Cowboy** · 27/12/2004, 4:38 PM

Of course not now but should we not support those who seek to change things for the better so that in the future this may be possible.

If we fail to plan we plan to fail

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

It's also easy to be unrealistic and make outlandish claims. I am not suggesting that we can't improve our systems in Ireland but it would be wrong to suggest that we can train and nurture international calibre talent in Ireland. At some point, those who are capable will need to go abroad. We can do our best to make sure that they are ready for that but we cannot do it all at home. Ireland and France is not comparing like with like. They have a much larger population and can sustain such development. We can't.

**lopez** · 27/12/2004, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

As for that Danish team, well ask yourself this: How many of those players played for a domestic Danish team....

Out of a squad of 20 at Euro '92, 13 played for Danish clubs.

**eirebhoy** · 27/12/2004, 4:57 PM

If the Eircom league clubs become successful in Europe we will see more talent in this country. A mate of mine was at Leeds for a couple of years a while back. He failed to even make the reserves yet he came back to Ireland with a brand new car. There is absolutely no way we can compete with England on the wage front and nobody is going to turn down a move across the water for that very reason.

**Fergie's Son** · 27/12/2004, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by lopez

Out of a squad of 20 at Euro '92, 13 played for Danish clubs.

Could you provide a citation for that? Most, if not all, of the starting 11 were playing for non-Danish clubs. Let's also remember that Denmark did not qualify for Euro '92 so there was some good fortune involved. The reality is we can prepare the lads better but that's about it.

**Slash/ED** · 27/12/2004, 7:19 PM

What exactly has how many Danish players played in Denmark have to do with anything?

I'm not saying we keep players here for life, but we should keep players here until their late teens when the best players will obviously go abroad. The weaker players who don't make it will be better prepared for a life outside football or will be better placed to find a club here. The more relevent question is out of that Denmark team how many were shipped off to foreign countries when they were barley teenagers?

**lopez** · 27/12/2004, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Could you provide a citation for that? Most, if not all, of the starting 11 were playing for non-Danish clubs. Let's also remember that Denmark did not qualify for Euro '92 so there was some good fortune involved. The reality is we can prepare the lads better but that's about it.

Source: World Soccer July 1992, pp 8. Danes that didn't play in Denmark were were Peter Schmeichel, John Sivabaek, Lars Olsen, Henrik Andersen, Flemming Povlsen, Brian Laudrup and Bent Christiansen . Only Schmeichel, Sivabaek, Olsen, Povlsen & Laudrup played in the final against Germany (Source World Soccer July 1992, pp 2), so no, the majority of the starting eleven wasn't playing outside Denmark, although it's pretty obvious that the better players would have been those that had moved onto a superior league like the Bundesliga. As for the 'they didn't qualify automatically for the tournament' argument, put away the shovel son before you disappear completely.

**Fergie's Son** · 28/12/2004, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by lopez

Source: World Soccer July 1992, pp 8. Danes that didn't play in Denmark were were Peter Schmeichel, John Sivabaek, Lars Olsen, Henrik Andersen, Flemming Povlsen, Brian Laudrup and Bent Christiansen . Only Schmeichel, Sivabaek, Olsen, Povlsen & Laudrup played in the final against Germany (Source World Soccer July 1992, pp 2), so no, the majority of the starting eleven wasn't playing outside Denmark, although it's pretty obvious that the better players would have been those that had moved onto a superior league like the Bundesliga. As for the 'they didn't qualify automatically for the tournament' argument, put away the shovel son before you disappear completely.

Eh? They had a good tournament, no they had a great one. That does not, however, make them a footballing powerhouse. Sunderland won the FA Cup in 1973 beating a poweful Leeds but that still didn't make them a particularly good team. Knock-out tournaments are littered with cinderella teams but that does not mean that the lower rank team football is sudenly better than the top levels. All it proves is that on any given day any team can beat any other team. Overall, however, the better (higher quality) team will win more often than not

Denmark had a nice run in a knock-out Tournament (even though they were beaten by Sweden). They were so good that they couldn't beat Ireland in the subsequent qualifiers

Also, of the 11 who played against Germany, 4 were from the Brodby club. Brondby dwarves any Irish club so again, you are not comparing like with like. So 5 from non-Danish clubs and 4 from one Danish club.

Also, there about 1, 400,000 more Danes than there are Irish so it is 25% bigger than we are.

Further, Danish players still travel abroad to seek fame and fortune and any really good Danish player will leave. I am not suggesting that we cannot do a better job of nurturing and developing our own talent but only in preparation for the trip abroad. We cannot and, absent a fluke, will not be able to develop internation calibre players on our own.

**Slash/ED** · 28/12/2004, 1:59 AM

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Further, Danish players still travel abroad to seek fame and fortune and any really good Danish player will leave.

Yes after getting their footballing education at home, more often than not.

We cannot and, absent a fluke, will not be able to develop internation calibre players on our own.

If we can "fluke" another Roy Keane or Paul McGrath I'll be very happy.

**1MickCollins** · 28/12/2004, 2:07 AM

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

If we can "fluke" another Roy Keane or Paul McGrath I'll be very happy.

In all fairness you probably couldn't have picked two worse examples, these guys are natural athletes with terrific stamina. I don't think any coach in Ireland could say "I am responsible for that developing Paul/Roy".

**Slash/ED** · 28/12/2004, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

In all fairness you probably couldn't have picked two worse examples, these guys are natural athletes with terrific stamina. I don't think any coach in Ireland could say "I am responsible for that developing Paul/Roy".

Yet they didn't suddenly turn into people who couldn't kick a ball straight through having to come through the system here. We should be putting money into building academys throughout the country so that players like that have even better oppurtunities to develop if they stay here until their late teens or in McGraths case, early 20s.

**Fergie's Son** · 28/12/2004, 2:45 AM

McGrath was the exception that proved the rule. Keane even states in his autobiography that it was Brian Clough's coaching that developed him into a great player.

I'm all for player development in Ireland but we have neither the infrastructure or the resources to pull it off at a national level. Perhaps we could emulate a Rosenberg (Shelbourne maybe) but even that is a long, long way away. You have to be practical.

**Plastic Paddy** · 28/12/2004, 8:45 AM

You do indeed have to be practical. I would suggest the first step has to be the promotion of coaching qualifications countrywide by the FAI. We seem to have plenty of people willing to become involved in the game at all levels; their potential needs harnessing. It's a long-term venture, but it's clear (at least to me) that we won't get anywhere in developing these players at home unless the standard of coaching is vastly improved in the domestic game.

Maybe that could be a brief for the new CEO...

PP

**lopez** · 28/12/2004, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Eh? They had a good tournament, no they had a great one. That does not, however, make them a footballing powerhouse. Sunderland won the FA Cup in 1973 beating a poweful Leeds but that still didn't make them a particularly good team.

Your original point was that Denmark won the tournament with just foreign-based players. They didn't. In fact they had not just a few home players but a majority of them. Then you claim that the majority of the first team were foreign-based players. Again they weren't. Then, instead of admitting that there was no reason why Ireland couldn't do the same, you go off onto every excuse imaginable. What next: Home was just five minutes away.

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Denmark had a nice run in a knock-out Tournament (even though they were beaten by Sweden). They were so good that they couldn't beat Ireland in the subsequent qualifiers

The reason was probably down to an exhaustive Euro 92. One game which Denmark could have lost the 2nd place to us was against Latvia in August 1992. True they didn't beat us. Neither did we beat them. Your point?

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Also, of the 11 who played against Germany, 4 were from the Brodby club. Brondby dwarves any Irish club so again, you are not comparing like with like. So 5 from non-Danish clubs and 4 from one Danish club.

The argument that 4 came from one club while 9 more came from other Danish clubs does not suggest a club's dominance of the league's talent. Twenty to thirty years previously you'd put money on an Irish club beating a Danish or Norwegian club in Europe. Johnny Giles' dream of creating a Shamrock Rovers capable of winning the European Cup may seem laughable now but was a possibility then (Nottingham Forest winners, Malmo runners up 1979). Perhaps we should ask why instead of some improvement, Irish clubs fell further in the 80s that they began losing to Cypriot club sides.

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Also, there about 1, 400,000 more Danes than there are Irish so it is 25% bigger than we are.

Does Denmark have 1 million of Danish born living in Sweden or Germany? Also does it have potentially 3-6 million people eligible for Danish citizenship in those countries. This doesn't include the 1.5 million people in NI who are eligible to Irish citizenship but have their own (geographical at least) side. And people wonder why I go on about the lack (or should that be total discardment) of education on emigration in Irish schools.

Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Further, Danish players still travel abroad to seek fame and fortune and any really good Danish player will leave. I am not suggesting that we cannot do a better job of nurturing and developing our own talent but only in preparation for the trip abroad. We cannot and, absent a fluke, will not be able to develop internation calibre players on our own.

If a player is leaving to join Arsenal, Liverpool or Man U. Fine. That is a success. If you are talking about a player leaving Ireland to play for Wycombe Wanderers then that is a disgrace. A number of problems exist for Irish football. Firstly, thankfully at last being plugged up, is the history of British clubs bringing over players without paying a penny in transfer fees. Perhaps this is demonising British clubs but it smacks of not just theft but exploitation. Example, Eamonn Collins playing for Blackpool at just 14: He should have been at school in Dublin and living with his parents at that age. Instead he ended up having a mediocre career playing for such powerhouses as Exeter and Colchester. Secondly, the fact that Irish football is pushed out by the Premiership in every way by an ar*e lickin' anglophilic media. Thirdly, the competition local football gets from not only other sports (Gaelic Football and Rugby) despite the others having a limited calendar in comparison, but from football in the divisions below, which I've known on my relatively limited time in Ireland, often getting bigger crowds. However, there is potential. The Shelbourne v Deportivo game showed there is a market for domestic football in Ireland. There is no reason why the Irish cannot conceivably match Denmark, Norway, Sweden or Scotland even if they'll never match the French.

**livehead1** · 28/12/2004, 9:58 PM

jesus mother of mary, ya wunt wana have bleary eyes when ur trying to read that post ^^ !!!!

**Cowboy** · 29/12/2004, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by livehead1

jesus mother of mary, ya wunt wana have bleary eyes when ur trying to read that post ^^ !!!!

why? what part did u not understand?

**hudhastings** · 30/12/2004, 2:35 AM

did u now cascorino wasnt even irish he was an italien who was adopted from irish parents and he played for ireland for years and got us a sh-t load of goals. i for one would rather lose than have sum1 like cascarino playing for ireland, same goe for morrison who is more irish than a foreign far-t. why not kevin doyle he is a class act and the fact that kerr keeps looking past the EL is a disgrace. The other english cluds havent come looking at Doyler yet but its only a matter of time, with his pace along with his ability to finish along with keonos skill no one would stop the boys in green. I mean Morrisons heart is in England. Macken ??????????????? theres no point in Macken in general.