Everton and Liverpool discussion

[Roadend]

What do you mean, he's dead right. It wasn't till the last 20 minutes that Liverpool played anyway well last night. 8-0 but look at the amount of mistakes the keeper and defenders made. Nothing like getting carried away with a big scoreline.

[razor]

Besiktas were awful but then they were bad the last day and still beat Liverpool, 8 goals will count for nothing if Liverpool don't get out of the group.
Had Pool got a point in Istanbul it might have made all the difference.

Thought the panel were a tad ungracious after Bill turned on them with the 8 goals, Giles got particularly ratty saying their dismissal of Liverpool was only based around Besiktas turning up, nice save Johnny. Dunphy doesn't half hate Liverpool.
Pool fans shouldn't cod themselves though, 2 more wins required.

Nothing like getting carried away with a big scoreline.

Especially at half 4 in the morning.

[Roadend]

Well if there is a good time to do it that's it. Some really positive things to come out of last night aprat from scoring 8 were Kewell looking sharp, beating players and whipping in crosses and Arbeloa getting forward a lot. I think Finnan has been a bit reluctant recently to do it.

[mypost]

What do you mean, he's dead right. It wasn't till the last 20 minutes that Liverpool played anyway well last night. 8-0 but look at the amount of mistakes the keeper and defenders made. Nothing like getting carried away with a big scoreline.

I'm not getting carried away, but it's not uncommon for us to rack up big scores. Remember Birmingham, Derby, etc.

We didn't allow them to play last night. A goal up in 20 minutes, 4 up by the hour mark, 8-0 up at the finish. We had 19 shots on target last night, out of 30. They may be poor, but who else will get close to beating them 8-0??

Anyone who says that someone didn't play well after winning 8-0, either has an agenda against them, or should never be on a football show again.

[anto1208]

I was happy for crouch he has been treated very badly by rafa and it showed up rafa last night. if he hadnt frozen him out like he did liverpool might not have been out of the tittle race so early .

[Roadend]

liverpool might not have been out of the tittle race so early .

ooh, get you.

[reder]

What happened between Dunphy etc and Bill? Was at the game so naturally didnt see it. Does anyone have any footage?

Great result but lets not forget that it is irrelevant if we dont win the last 2 group games and qualify. Lets hope we can push on this weekend and beat Fulham.

[Roadend]

Nothing much really. They were banging on abuot RB's rotation policy and how only Gerrard would get into the other top 4 sides. 8 goals later Bill says they have egg on their face which they try to worm out of.

[anto1208]

What happened between Dunphy etc and Bill? Was at the game so naturally didnt see it. Does anyone have any footage?

Great result but lets not forget that it is irrelevant if we dont win the last 2 group games and qualify. Lets hope we can push on this weekend and beat Fulham.

I didnt see it but having a wild stab in the dark i reckon

PLayers now adays are rubbish/fairies/overpaid we are smarter than the manager and this game will be crap.

Followed by Besiktas didnt show up

Same as every week

[anto1208]

2nil away from home good result but far from comfortable Big vic won the game for us coming on with 15 mins to go winning a penalty then scoring a very good goal to seal it , 5 wins in a row

Im happy having artetta first goal scorer and everton to win by 2 goals over 100 euro

[drinkfeckarse]

Jeez you're having a stormer this season with the betting Anto!! I've gone for Chelsea this weekend though so I'm expecting your winning run to be shattered

[anto1208]

Jeez you're having a stormer this season with the betting Anto!! I've gone for Chelsea this weekend though so I'm expecting your winning run to be shattered

expecting the same myself !!

I cant get over the betting ive withdrawn 1300 from the account and now ive over 100 back in it again started with 20 euro have prob lost 200 on other bets that didnt come off but when you have won that much it doesnt matter , at least ive been smart enough to cash in rather than betting it all again

[anto1208]

Great result at the weekend it was turning into a copy of what happened V utd similar goal near the end but up pops Cahill for his 3rd in 4 games since his return . Brilliant

Good little run put together 5 wins and a draw ìnternational break came just in time to give some of the players a rest they need hopefully now they push on starting with a win over sunderland next weekend .

[KildareFan]

Anto, you said that you voted yes for the move to Kirby. Just wondering if you've seen the latest pictures and video with Alan Stubbs and whether it changes your opinion at all?

[anto1208]

Anto, you said that you voted yes for the move to Kirby. Just wondering if you've seen the latest pictures and video with Alan Stubbs and whether it changes your opinion at all?

Yea i did and sitting in my seat last sat in the main stand with only 1 half of the pitch visible due to a pole in the way sitting on a tiny wooden seat with the back of the seat in front of me digging into my knees ( and im only 6'2" )i was glad i did.

Seen the pics havent seen the vid , pics look fine i think the shop front is a bit tacky and i dont like the way you can see the under side of the stand from the outside hopefully they change that but other than that i think its a class stadium loads of parking and it will be easy to get to .

[reder]

Anto, you said that you voted yes for the move to Kirby. Just wondering if you've seen the latest pictures and video with Alan Stubbs and whether it changes your opinion at all?

Can you post a link to this video please. KildareFan its time Everton moved on, Goodison is well below par for home fans and particularly for away fans.

PS: It's Kirkby!!

[anto1208]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTpzVVsrhRQ

not great quality the last few seconds give you an idea of what it will look like .

[KildareFan]

Can you post a link to this video please. KildareFan its time Everton moved on, Goodison is well below par for home fans and particularly for away fans.

PS: It's Kirkby!!

I can't access youtube here in work so not sure if this is the same as Anto's link.

http://www.destinationkirkby.com/cgis.asp?movie=everton

While the video mightn't look too bad, it's the pictures in here that really fill me with dread

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0...name_page.html

Reder, I'm not aruging that we should stay at Goodison. I've sat in the main behind pillars and been at the back of the Gwladys St end which is looking like through a letterbox. But this move is not right, we don't belong in some poxy retail park, we're not wigan or bolton. The only reason the current board are pushing this so much is because it is the cheapest and easiest option for them. Compare this Kirkby (!!!!) stadium to the Emirates or even liverpool's new design and it just doesn't compare.

[KildareFan]

A pretty good piece on the whole issue



So, once again talk turns to new stadia with the news that the cost of Liverpool's Millenium Falcon-esque effort in the park will rise to a quite frankly frightening, £400 million.


Hot on the heels of that announcement came the release of the destinationkirkby.com website and CGI representation of Stubbsy standing in the middle of a full house of hollering Evertonians in Kirkby.

And very impressive it was too with moving, romantic images of Everton's walk up fan base strolling up to a Goodison match (ironically the same 'walk up' we stand to loose if we move to a stadium on a retail park in Knowsley).

Yes, I know that this subject has been done to death and people have pretty much settled on where they stand on the stadium debate. I know people are very unlikely to change the opinions they have formed, but I believe there are three MAJOR issues that have so far not been explored in anywhere near the level of depth the fans deserve.

I will lay my cards on the table immediately and state my strong anti-'destination Kirkby' stance here and now. I believe it will be disastrous for us to move to this scheme on the grounds of the cost and financing not adding up, dwindling fan base, poor design and aesthestics and cultural and historical loss of identity.)

1. The first issue is one of finance or a question of "Show me the Money!"

For this is the response that most pro-Kirkby fans instinctively come out with whenever the Scotty Rd/Bestway site is mentioned as an alternative to Knowsley. People (quite rightly) want to know where the funding is coming from if a stadium is to be built on the loop and so do I.

However, I would also like to know where the money is coming from for this stadium Tesco are 'giving' us in Kirkby? I think it is a fair question to ask how the club intend to finance the 'world class' stadium we have been promised by Keith Wyness (and by World Class most would define that as UEFA 5 or 4 star standard, capable of hosting UEFA Cup finals, Champions League finals or even World and European matches).

Let us be clear on this point as it seems there's some wildly inaccurate misconceptions flying around when it comes to the costings of this stadium and the burden it will place on us. Talk to the average Evertonian and you will hear the arguement, "Yeah but don't forget Tesco are building us the stadium!"

Let's get this straight....

We are not being "given" a stadium. We are not having a stadium 'built for us'.

Tesco are paying for the design, the land and offering to pay for PART of the labour and construction in a deal with their preferred builders, Barr (the people who brought you the Ricoh Stadium and a host of other aesthetically bland, cheap and generic arenas).

Our club's 'contribution' currently stands at anywhere between £25-30 million and £50 million depending on capacity, fixtures, fittings and features according to Keith Wyness and Terry Leahy. That is bound to increase, possibly even doubling in cost by the time it comes to breaking ground. These costings are based on an ESTIMATE and based on an assumption.

That assumption (and this is VITALLY important) is that world steel prices and the cost of construction does not go up dramatically. Also, AND THIS IS OF VITAL IMPORTANCE TO A CLUB WHICH WILL IN ALL PROBABILITY HAVE TO BORROW HEAVILY, the assumption that the unprecedented levels of low interest rates we currently enjoy remain just that...low.

EVERY economic indicator and historical experience suggests that this will NOT remain the case for long and that the Bank of England will be raising interest rates. They are then likely to rise exponentially year on year to a more realistic level as the world economy goes through a (hopefully slight) economic downturn which we in the UK can only hope to weather; the troubles in America with the 'credit crunch' and housing market problems adding to this.

So in other words, at the moment we are looking in the region of £25-30 million for the cheapest "This'll do for now" option assuming the price of steel and materials stays the same.

If we increase to 55-60k and add all the bells and whistles and luxuries we are looking at a lot more. Again, this being dependent on steel and construction prices remaining pretty much the same.

Either way, Bill Kenwright (bless him and god love him) has not got a great track record of coming up with the investment money in the past, has he? In all probability he will have to borrow it and take a massive risk and chance that there won't be an economic downturn (we are long overdue) or a decline in the fortunes of the Premiership and British football in general.

Suddenly this stadium we are being given or having built for us doesn't seem as much of a gift as you might think. If this thing ends up costing us over £50-£100 million to leave Goodison for a stadium designed by Barr on a Tesco retail park, you would end up asking was it worth leaving Goodison and the city for?

I suppose what I am asking is: Has anyone done a due diligence on the proposed Tesco/Kirkby deal and I mean a proper analysis of ownership, risk, return, etc? If so, release this information to the press and to Everton's shareholders and fans.

2. The question of motives and how this squares with Evertonians.

Let's be fair here, Terry Leahy has been brutally honest with Evertonians and it would be a pretty mean spirited person who wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt that he has the interests of Everton at heart. He's been honest and said that, yes, Tesco stand to make a lot of money out of this proposal.

But let's also be honest and admit that the shareholders of Tesco couldn't give two flying ****s about the success or failure of Everton Football Club. No, the reason for all this haste and overwhelming desire to get Everton on board, greasing their palm with this stadium offer, is to get their scheme past Ruth Kelly's government department.

Tesco/Everton is a planning issue, Everton appear to be the vital piece of the jigsaw for Tesco's retail development to stack up with the planners . Again, let's be clear on this! The land they want has leisure use fixed on it, they have to retain leisure as a major piece of the scheme to get planning through with the minimum of fuss. Without the leisure offering there is a (however large or small) chance that the government will call the project in and/or decline it.

Hicks/Gillete have a vested financial interest in making certain Liverpool are successful and sustainable, do Tesco have that motivation over 5/10/15 years for Everton?

No, the motivation for Tesco goes as far as planning, there's dozens of cases from amateur clubs to big clubs in the UK who have gone down this route with house builders and supermarkets. I can't think of a massively successful partnership, yet, of course you don't hear about Tesco/Asda/Sainsburys/Barratt, etc. having problems.

It is massively important to square this with our love of the club. Again, if we are to take the absolutely monumental decision to leave Goodison Park to join up with these people we've got to be sure of their motives and be able to square it in our heads with our own ambitions.

Are you 100% happy with this union?

3. And finally. Scotty Rd/Bestway.

People are right to be suspicious of this bid from Bestway and the council. Any fair-minded person no matter how anti-Kirkby would have to agree it smacks of too little too late and contains no financial 'bones' at the moment.

However, I am becoming increasingly resentful of Keith Wyness' attitude towards what could be our only back up or might even end up a better solution than the Tesco proposal.

Time and time again he states AS IF FACT that a stadium cannot be delivered on that site and that the funding won't work. Despite carrying out no feasibility study of his own or talking to the potential partners.

Yet it now emerges that H.O.K. the world renowned stadium designers and constructors who built the Millenium Stadium, Emirates and Wembley carried out their own study showing that at the very least a design for a 55-60k stadium is definitely possible on that site, supplying the Echo with their report and feasibility study and even going to the extent of preparing possible preliminary designs for such a stadium.

Make no mistake! The Scotland Road site will not happen. NOT because it is unfeasible, but because Kirkby is Kenwright's insurance policy and the only thing that will keep him at the head of the club and secure his legacy.

The Scotty Road site might well be possible, but it is likely to require outside investment or a takeover. The last thing Kenwright wants?

The question for Evertonians is: Is enough being done to examine in full the other options?

[anto1208]

not taking a dig at the blues on here but it really looks like another generic stadium a la the reebok riverside pride park etc etc.in fairness ye do need the move though so maybe its not all bad.and plastic seats too wow

I like it i prefere Football stadiums to look like football stadiums and not having adig at liverpools but its horrible it looks like a new terminal to an airport. Whats the point in spending 300 mill ye dont have on a horrible stadium.

evertons is closer to Old trafford 4 sides all level with the option to fill in the corners same as utd did . seats are close to the pitch so you won't loose the atmosphere. The stadium its based on in Germany allways gets good reports on the atmospere.