Everton and Liverpool discussion

**4tothefloor** · 06/03/2005, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by JoeSemi

Agree with most of what you've said there 4, but to start doubting Rafa only has a knock on effect and that mindset can't be allowed to dominate in Liverpool supporters minds. The man IS proven and has to be allowed to stamp his own mark on the club, with a couple of years given to him to achieve this. Yes, we may fall behind in the short term and the cash injection might not come from CL football next season, but Rome wasn't built in a day as they say and more to the point , Man*re's dominance didn't happen over night either. Managers need time to adapt as much as players do to a new country and club. Judging by the adoration(bordering on Palestinian proportions!) on the streets of Cardiff last weekend, this will thankfully be granted.

That's one way of looking at it, and I agree with you that he should be given time. I'm not saying get rid of him, I just have my doubts, that's all. Next season he has it all to prove. I'm looking at it from a different perspective, which is this. We gave Souness far too much time and suffered. We gave Evans too much time, and messed around with an Evans-Houllier partnership before giving him the inevitable boot. We gave Houllier far, far too much time, and too much money. We are paying for that now. This season has been a disaster (may be saved yet by Evertons inability to kill us off), but of course Benitez should be afforded the benefit of the doubt. That's without question. But he has some serious questions to answer next season, and if those answers aren't forthcoming I don't want to see another situation where we are putting blind faith in (another) dud manager. I think in this case having some doubt is a good thing - I don't believe in having blind faith in people, they should be judged objectively.

We need to start buying British and Irish players, and fast. Where we are going to get the money, I have no idea. We have no soul, too many foreigners who can't even speak english. I can even think of a couple of scousers playing in the premiership who would be better than what we have in their positions. A few papers today are saying that Moores is beginning to realise that he may have to write off his 51% shareholding as no investors are willing to buy him out because it would cost too much money. He'll certainly have to relenquish control of the club to any new investor. This is good news as it means the majority of any new money will go straight into the clubs coffers and on players. All hypothetical I know, but something has to happen or we're ****ed.

**JoeSemi** · 06/03/2005, 9:10 PM

Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

.

We need to start buying British and Irish players, and fast. Where we are going to get the money, I have no idea. We have no soul, too many foreigners who can't even speak english. I can even think of a couple of scousers playing in the premiership who would be better than what we have in their positions. A few papers today are saying that Moores is beginning to realise that he may have to write off his 51% shareholding as no investors are willing to buy him out because it would cost too much money. He'll certainly have to relenquish control of the club to any new investor. This is good news as it means the majority of any new money will go straight into the clubs coffers and on players. All hypothetical I know, but something has to happen or we're ****ed.

This has been said before and has some truth, but again its an issue of buying the right players, at the right price. As regards the too many foreigners label, I don't agree. Look at Milan, Arsenal and Chelsea. Good footballers are good footballers regardless of where they're from. Of course Liverpool haven't got the quality of foreign player the 3 aforementioned have, but team spirit is something that is reliant on every body pulling in one direction. And we know there's a certain individual pulling the other way of late and he's not foreign. A bad signing can't be called such because of where they're from. Yes, we'd all love an English/Irish heartbeat in the side, but how many have been a success in recent years? There hasn't been too many. The same quality doesn't exist in England and certainly not at the same prices. If Alonso was English we'd be talking of a 20m tag on his head. He cost 10m, is top class and can speak English(thanks to a couple of summers down my way when he was a young lad!)

There are only a couple of scousers playing outside the city capable of playing for Liverpool. David Thompson is one, but has been injury prone. Fat Boy Rooney would be one, but there's more chance of me or you signing, and after that I'm stuck. The only realistic English/Irish signings come this summer would be SWP, Woodgate and Scott Parker. But if the same calibre of player was to arrive from the continent with no English I wouldn't give two fcuks to be honest.

**mypost** · 09/03/2005, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Well they go from looking like world beaters at home to being absolutely clueless away every two weeks or so. I'm beginning to have my doubts about Benitez, he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the team, and his tactics away from home are absolutely shocking.

Benitez has them going into every away game with a negative attitude. They make no attempt to win away from home, it's all defend with this one-man-up-front rubbish. It's the same thing game after game, has Benitez not learned anything since the start of the season? This season has been a complete disaster and is as bad, if not worse, than anytime when Houllier was in charge.

I never wanted him to be our new coach, because he didn't have a long and successful track record. Sure, he coached a few Spanish teams before, and happened to be coach of Valencia, when Real Madrid threw away two league titles. He won the UEFA Cup, but er... so did a certain G. Houllier, and look what happened to him. He sold our main striker, Owen before the start of the season, then said he had enough forwards in the squad. 3 months later, we only had 1 proven striker, so when he bought another one in January, he wouldn't play the pair of them in the League Cup Final. What happened??? We lost.

Another mistake he made is flooding the squad with Spaniards. Generally, Spanish players playing in England never settle. The reverse is also true. The cultures in Britain, and Spain are so different, both socially, and football-wise, added to the fact that many of the players can't speak the language, means they struggle to fit-in. Playing one man upfront in games, is not going to get us into a derisory 4th place, to try and qualify for the Champions League next season.

This may be Beni's honeymoon season, and in fairness, he has had some awful luck with injuries, but half of the team every week is of players that he signed, and a lot of the problems at the club at the moment, are of his own making. 4th place should not be a target for this club. No disrespect to the neighbours, but we should not be having to settle for that every season, with the resources we have. The fans don't care about finishing 4th, (GH got sacked after finishing 4th last season), only the board do.

**mypost** · 10/03/2005, 3:29 AM

Flashbackto 01/01: Us 0-1 Chelsea.

Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

That result today was a load of b ollo x. Chelsea were shocking and deserved zilch from the game. Mike Riley was a disgrace and at this stage it's quite obvious that he's not up to reffing (a) Big premiership games, and (b) Any game involving Man U, especially at Old Trafford. How this guy is still a Premiership ref is beyond me.

It's amazing how foreign referees have eyesight isn't it? In the Chelsea-Barcelona game, a Chelsea defender handles the ball in his own box, in exactly the same way that Tiago handled the ball in his own box against us at Anfield. This time, a penalty was given.

It's a pity, that Collina can't ref in the Premiership. If he can spot it and award a penalty, why can't the likes of Mike Riley do the same?

**DolansWaistcoat** · 10/03/2005, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by mypost

Flashbackto 01/01: Us 0-1 Chelsea.

It's amazing how foreign referees have eyesight isn't it? In the Chelsea-Barcelona game, a Chelsea defender handles the ball in his own box, in exactly the same way that Tiago handled the ball in his own box against us at Anfield. This time, a penalty was given.

It's a pity, that Collina can't ref in the Premiership. If he can spot it and award a penalty, why can't the likes of Mike Riley do the same?

Because it's Chelsea who are supposed to win the league this year to make the league a little more interesting(and profitable),and Riley nearly forgot that and put the whistle in his mouth for a second

Anyway well done to the the reds and the blues(Chelski not toffees)for two great performances and a place in the last 8 of the CL.

**Schumi** · 10/03/2005, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by mypost

It's amazing how foreign referees have eyesight isn't it? In the Chelsea-Barcelona game, a Chelsea defender handles the ball in his own box, in exactly the same way that Tiago handled the ball in his own box against us at Anfield. This time, a penalty was given.

It's a pity, that Collina can't ref in the Premiership. If he can spot it and award a penalty, why can't the likes of Mike Riley do the same?

He missed the blatent free out when Chelsea were scoring their winning goal though.

**4tothefloor** · 10/03/2005, 8:11 PM

They're all as bad as each other if you ask me. How in gods name was the Baros trip not a penalty last night? We ended up winning the game at a canter, but had they scored first that penalty incident would have been a big talking point. I can't understand blatent decisions like that not being given. It's not just the referee, what are the assistant-referees doing? Are they blind? I could write a thesis on how poor referee decisions have cost Liverpool points this season....

**DolansWaistcoat** · 16/03/2005, 6:28 AM

The next two games are vital for Liverpool if they want that 4th spot.The game in hand tonght against Blackburn and then the visit of the Blue noses at the weekend.6 points would be the job.The gap could be as low as two or if the worst possible scenario occurs then the toffees will be 11 points clear with only 8 games left and then the fat ladie will really be singing.

Anyway if the 'pool finisg fifth they can still win the Cl league this year and everton will be dumped into the Uefa cup by the FA where they will probably be humiliated just as much as if they were in a CL qualifing match.

CL draw is friday.

**4tothefloor** · 16/03/2005, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by DolansWaistcoat

CL draw is friday.

I want Chelsea.....Alonso back for the second leg to break Lampards ankles

**jockser** · 16/03/2005, 3:44 PM

as long as we avoid Juve i dont mind who we get

**mypost** · 17/03/2005, 4:29 AM

Whoever we get will be a hard draw. Hopefully, we'll be away first next time.

Something rather more important was the two more points dropped last night. Both Liverpool clubs seem to have developed an allergy to collecting Premiership points lately. Everton have only won 4 times since the last derby, and we've only won twice this year, and have only picked up 4 points from the last 5 games. Not good enough!!

It all points to a tense derby on Sunday, and after our last 4 league games at home against Everton resulting in draws, we need a home derby win now. Games are running out, and who drops most points until May will decide who will try to qualify for next season's CL.

**Dillo** · 18/03/2005, 2:02 PM

Alright boyz!! I'm sure yer all extremely optimistic ahead of Sunday! Having watched yer shambolic display against Blackburn on wednesday night I'm more confident than ever that Everton will at least get a point. Ye were pathetic against Rovers and there's no doubting Pool are contributing to their own downfall from the word go. This is a wonderful opportunity for the toffees to reach the CL and there's no doubt in my mind that the Moyessiah will have his troops firmly focused.
On a separate note, Liverpool can kiss goodbye to their CL dream- a dream is all it is. Juve will come through both legs with ease as they possess quality in every department unlike the red sh!te.

**4tothefloor** · 18/03/2005, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dillo

Ye were pathetic against Rovers and there's no doubting Pool are contributing to their own downfall from the word go.

Pot calling the kettle black. Ye were worse, ye lost to them! Everton's form is worse than Liverpool's, so I don't know what you're on about. For what it's worth I think Everton will get a point on Saturday, because they'll just come with a very defensive attitude, and as we showed on wednesday, we struggle against teams like that. Everton will continue to drop points though, so it'll still go down to the wire.

**JoeSemi** · 20/03/2005, 7:15 PM

In the white heat of the 201st Merseyside derby Everton succumbed to a far superior Liverpool team, anchored by the imperious Jamie Carragher. Having set the tone from the outset, Liverpool dominated a first half in which they deservedly took the lead through a measured Steven Gerrard free kick. In what was always going to be a battle first and foremost, Liverpool's authority was stamped by the early dominance of Didi Hamann and Steven Gerrard against the three in Everton's midfield. The lead was doubled by the excellent Luis Garcia after a dipping volley by Morientes left Martyn only touching it onto the crossbar, after back-tracking in a manner that befits his age. 2-0. Liverpool were cruising. Having already lost the services of Warnock through injury, further blows were dealt when both Hamann and Morientes picked up knocks. Everton had yet to threaten however, but when Luis Garcia hobbled off at half time it looked as if Liverpool needed the Mourinho bus to park across the penalty area.

The bus never arrived for the second half, but Garcia did; playing manfully through the pain barrier, but admittedly leaving Liverpool a man light. Beattie was added to spice up an Everton attack, but looked off the pace and didn't impact in the way Moyes had hoped. Liverpool got the whiff of a third goal when Everton's onslaught didn't materialise and the game should have been sealed when Milan Baros had a clear run on goal, but couldn't master his dribbling ability. Another opportunity arrived for Baros shortly after and that again was foiled, by Martyn this time. Frustration grew amongst a fervent Anfield, as their dogged opponents hadn't been well and truly put back in their kennels.. Milan Baros' influence grew even more after this, but not in the way envisaged by his manager. Chasing down the right flank with his usual eagerness, he then left a trailing leg around Alan Stubbs' left knee. Not pretty, and not without its immediate and long-term consequences. Duncan Ferguson had entered proceedings by now, with his usual uncompromising style and fist-clenching thuggery coming to the fore. Everton, like a good sniffer dog, had got a scent of something. That something was a well executed goal by Cahill; which left the mass of red on the Kop wishing they'd brought a change of underwear.

Where Liverpool had before crumbled beneath such aerial bombardment, they now stood strong. Jamie Carragher epitomised the Liverpool spirit in a man of the match display that proves he falls in the bracket as one of the three best defenders in England. The questions were asked of Liverpool in every sense and they answered emphatically. Did they have the team spirit that a Liverpool team should have? Without doubt. Was the hunger there? Certainly. Could the foreign lads stand the heat of a thunderous Merseyside derby? The answer was there to see in the reaction of the supporters and all the players afterwards.

The big question mark over this Liverpool side is whether they can reproduce a similar performance in the Bolton game. If so, Everton will be caught. If not, the impetus again lies with the blue half. All games are tough in the run-in, and there'll be no ounce spared from any opponent, home or away. Liverpool look threadbare again, after another clutch of unfortunate injuries that have blighted the season. This may, ultimately, dictate what happens- and whether Everton can overhaul Liverpool as Merseyside's top team for the first time in 18 years.

**Dillo** · 20/03/2005, 8:14 PM

Just as Everton proved the better team when the sides met a few months ago, Liverpool, today ruled supreme and deserved their victory. Having said that however, David Moyes felt his team could have got a point out of the derby had the referee Rob Styles allowed more than three minutes of stoppage time at the end. The Moyessiah did not hide his disappointment with the match officials.

Asked if he felt Everton could have got a draw Moyes replied: "If we had been given enough time at the end yes, but the officials had other ideas. I mean it wasn't three minutes was it? It was at least five. We scored and the Liverpool fans wouldn't give the ball back and Dudek was time wasting walking from one side to the other with his goal kicks.

"I thought Liverpool were very good in the first half but we went for it in the second half and were a little unlucky. Liverpool did things they haven't done all season. They played well.

"We are still in the position they want to be in so it's great for Everton. We haven't got the same financial resources as teams like Liverpool so it's great for us. If we had won this game and gone four points clear of Liverpool then I would have been dancing up and down the pitch. We are in a great position."

On a separate note, Milan Baros' tackle on Stubbsy was horrific and he was rightly given his marching orders. Baros is a headless chicken at the best of times and on another day could have finished the career of the imperious Stubbs with such a tackle.

Next up for the blues is a trip to the Hawthorns to a face a resurged Baggies outfit. Make no mistake about it, this is a very tricky game for Everton but if they approach it in the right manner they'll reap the rewards. Unlike the red sh!te, Everton have been merseyside's most consistent team all season and one must still fancy Moyes' men to take that precious fourth spot. Fingers crossed.

**Thunderblaster** · 20/03/2005, 11:58 PM

All we have to do is beat Bolton and put Everton on tenderhooks. Everton does not have the bottle. Instead of Rafa Beneathus, it will be Rafa Aboveyou Benitez. Stevie G, WHAT A STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Champions League, you're having a laugh!! Big Dunc, what a thuggish waster.

**mypost** · 21/03/2005, 4:42 AM

Result from Beni-dorm:
Merseyside 2-1 Moyeseyside.

It took 4.5 years to beat them at home but we did it, and no matter who finishes fourth, we've got the bragging rights over yous 'til next season.

As for Baros' tackle, while it was late, I don't think it deserved a straight red. You see such tackles in every game, every week. Most players only get booked. They spent the whole game kicking our players, yet as soon as we retaliated, our player got sent-off.

No wonder our fans at the touchline told the ref, what they thought of it. As for the "could have finished the career of Stubbs" comments, he got up after treatment. However, we had to make 3 subs before the break, and finish the game with effectively 9 players.

Originally Posted by Dillo

Unlike the red sh!te, Everton have been merseyside's most consistent team all season

4 wins in 3 months; 11 points from your last 11 games, that ain't consistent, toffee. That's relegation form, for the one-season wonders who are already in decline. Next year, you'll be back down where you belong, in the bottom half of the league once again.

Well done, Reds. That's more like it. Keep it up!!

**jockser** · 21/03/2005, 3:00 PM

Great result yessss

**4tothefloor** · 21/03/2005, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dillo

the imperious Stubbs

lol, easily the worst player on the pitch, how he is the centre-half of a top four side is perplexing.......all a red shirt had to do was break into a jog and Stubbs was left in no-mans-land. Had Milan Baros scored his easy chances, it would have been an embarrassment for Everton. Instead he got sent-off at a time when Everton were just resorting to long-balls up to Dunc-the-drunk (very unlike them to be fair....

) . That's Baros' Liverpool career over anyway.

If that is what Everton have to offer, it would be an absolute disaster for the premiership if they qualified for the CL. They'd be an embarrassment for the league, they wouldn't even win the qualifier. They're form over the last 3 months is a true reflection of the real Everton - relegation fodder punching above their weight. Their saving grace now is the amazing injury situation at Anfield, 5 of the starting 11 on Sunday now injured as well. Typical of the lack of luck Benitez has had to endure this season. But if I was a betting man, i'd say Everton won't even finish above Bolton.