What, and Dunfermline lowered their game when playing an Icelandic team who finished lower than the team Shels got passed in the first round of the CL?Originally Posted by joeraki
And going to SPL games is no judge, you're watching teams of similar quality play each other, the quality of the game or style of play would have no bearing on whether or not eL clubs would manage in the SPL.
[QUOTE=ShelsTim]What, and Dunfermline lowered their game when playing an Icelandic team who finished lower than the team Shels got passed in the first round of the CL?
QUOTE]
Going by the odd Euro game is no indication either. 3 Scottish teams are still in Europe and No Irish
Bit like saying with Shels holding Deportivo at home any not losing to bad away, that the best EL clubs would hold their own in La Liga
We're ignoring Celtic/Rangers, everyone agrees we wouldn't compete with them.Going by the odd Euro game is no indication either. 3 Scottish teams are still in Europe and No Irish
Bit like saying with Shels holding Deportivo at home any not losing to bad away, that the best EL clubs would hold their own in La Liga
And it's not like saying we'ld manage in La Liga. If, let's say, Dep played Newcastle in Europe and lost and we played Arsenal and won, then it would be the same. And that's not the only evidence I gave. By the way, have you actually got any evidence to the contrary or are you just defending this thing for the sake of it?
Two are Celtic and Rangers, nobodys saying we'd compete with them. The other is Hearts, who got into the UEFA cup stage that's to being seeded thanks to the co-efficent earned for the SPL by Celtic and Rangers. Irish sides don't have that luxury, Lille would easily beat Hearts over two legs. They were beaten by French opposition last season who are currently below Lille in the French league if I'm not mistaken.
Look at results in Europe then. Shels lost to Kille due to a last minute goal having utterly outclassed them, that was down to us not being fit due to part time football. Not a problem anymore, and here's the proof, Bohs went and knocked out Aberdeen. St Pats drew in Celtic Park and narrowly lost, that's roughly the level of non old firm SPL sides against the big two, in fact most just get destroyed home and away. Shels were 3-0 up against Rangers! Then part time fitness kicked in and they came back, 0-2 in Ibrox is about the level of non Old Firm SPL sides. Other results, Shels knock out the Icelandic champions, Dunfermline get destroyed 3-1! at home by a team who finished below the team Shels knocked out.
Lets look at players, then. Richie Byrne was a poor full back in the LOI, he moves to the SPL and is a mainstay in the Dunfermline team until some issues with his contract had him froze out (Not sure that the current situation is there). Noel Hunt was average in the EL, went to the SPL and got MOTM against Celtic. Injuries have slowed him down a bit, but his form there was so good there were calls for him to get into the Irish team. Dempsey went from the fecking first division to the SPL! And is superb there! The other way around, one time second heighest scorer in the SPL, still in his prime, Juan Sara came to Shels and couldn't even break the bench! If there was such a massive gap in class, or any gap in class, he'd not only have walked into our team but he'd be the best striker in the league. Instead, he was released. If there was a gap in class, the players going over would struggle to step up the players coming here would be stars, none of that is true.
No doubt none of that counts because someones seen an SPL match once so knows more than any of us, but for the uninformed, those look like pretty damning facts for the people who try to argue that the SPL, bar the old firm, is miles ahead of the EL. I would say clearly it isn't.
Well my little shamrock rovers supporting friend. I thought that was a very persuasive argument, I'm sold.Personaly i think there is two hope's... slim and none!
but leave it up to you !!
One thing though, how come you brought it up. Is it because you think its true? I mean you wouldnt say the EL is as good as La Liga because its patently obvious and people would just laugh at you for saying so. Yet people arent laughing they are debating the matter.
Ive never seen a SPL division match either on TV or live. There are thereforer only some clues i can go on. The last time I saw a scottish team outside of Celtic or Rangers of Glasgow playing was Aberdeen. Funnily enough they were playing Bohs. Bohs knocked them out playing with only 10 men.
The El has progressed a lot since then. The SPL seems to have regressed.
Ok the only other way i have of comparing them is by comparing how EL teams did against teams with the same or around the same co-efficient as non Celtic and Rangers scottish teams.
Hajduk Split were knoked out be Shels. Hajduk have a better record in Europe as ranked by UEFA than the average scottish clubs (and that includes the contribution of rangers and celtic who are on a different planet compared to the average scottish club).
NEC and Malmo were knocked out by Cork City. Both teams would have around the same average as a non glasgow giant club (in the case of Malmo higher).
Where are Inverness C playing their home games this season?
Cork City: Making 'Dream Team' seem realistic since 2007.
eoin, having said you have only watched one other team play from the scot league and that was the bohs game means you can have no imput into this argument.The reason I asked the question because a bloke in work who is also a big loi fan said he thinks shels cork and bohs would fill the top 5 slots in Scotland. mmmmmm
Also did you see harts had a great win vs. basil last night!!
now I bet one of these top loi team would love to be playing in the group stages of the uefa cup!! but unfortunately the fairy tale which that's all it was ended when it should have.
Will be very surprised to see shels doing anything like what they did last year, as for cork sure they can do what they like in the intertoto.(I am not knocking achievements, they got the furthest any Irish team have ever got in a European cup and fair play to them)
But still think they would struggle. Lads honestly I have great admiration for your complete love of the league and as do I but I think that if these teams were in spl they would be struggling to stay up each year, plus if in the spl div 1 I honestly think they would only be there or there about in getting promoted! Your point re the shels striker Juan, the poor lad could not get work permit to play, if your a shels fan you'd know this, also he is now injured from playing with the 21's he is still a class player and would have given Jason a run for his money this year. Id say if his agent is any good he'll get him back to Scotland or to 1st div England he'll never get a work permit playing in this league (which again says a lot for the standard....)
Anyways in regards the other players who you mentioned all have lost there place in scot not cause of injury's cause they have not been good enough to hold there own, they were all rated as great players in Ireland and you are all lying if you say different! but found the pace of the game too much id imagine and are now lolly popped!
Neither of those things is even remotely true. He was available for selection, our manager confirmed that, and he didn't get injured for our 21s, in fact he was a regular with them because he couldn't get into the first team.
harts
basil
who are these teams
That would be those TV personalities Hart to Hart (thus harts)harts
basil
who are these teams
and Fawlty, as in basil.
Unless by your arguments you have seen some swiss league matchs you too are disqualified on giving an opinion on that game. Your reasoning not mine.
Hearts still havent got as far as either City or shels.
Will you explain to me how Dunfermline got knocked out by an Icelandic team if these scottish teams are so good?
All of this is a bit pointless. Didn't Limerick knock Cork City out of the cup around the same season (give or take a season) that Bohs beat Aberdeen? Does this mean that the 1st divison is of a higher quality than the eL? Barry Prenderville was BRUTAL at Ayr United but got back into St Pats first team without much difficulty. Its going back a bit I know, but I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Gilzean play for St Pats...
The truth is I don't know how the SPL and the eL shape up, the eL certainly has improved in leaps and bounds but you can't make comparisons between 'cup matches' and the experiences of a handful of players. Now if an eL club (any eL club) could go out and gub Kilm$rnock....that would make me very happy for all of the right and all of the wrong reasons
don't worry, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dis......
Youre comparing one off cup matchs with two legs home and away - its not the same thing.
Different sorts of leagues suit different players.
Keane and Viera failed miserable in Italy but shone in england. The same with Ian Rush - you wouldnt question their ability would you?
Anyway, its an unanswerable question.
OK but we are both pulling out unusual cirucmstances...
Which is why I don't think we can make insightful comparisons.
No but as you said different sorts of leauges suit different players. The same is true of environments. I was a bit unkind to pick on Barry Prenderville. I suspect he was deeply unhappy at Ayr which made matters worse. The sample size is a bit small to say that the average eL player would make a top class SPL player.
Indeed it is. That is the point that I was making, but what else is there to do in the closed season? If you really have nothing to do and want to get a jaundiced (realistic?) view of Scottish Football try:Anyway, its an unanswerable question.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/offtheball/
Last edited by Jim Smith; 26/11/2004 at 12:21 PM.
don't worry, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dis......
Having been in Inverness only 2 months ago, I can assure you that the reason they're playing at Pittodrie isn't because the Caledonian Stadium is 'bad', it's because it just isn't good enough for the SPL.Where are Inverness C playing their home games this season?
In it's pre-development state it is still better than any ground in the EL, including Tolka. Only Windsor Park on this island would be better than it.
It'll be a lovely wee stadium when they finish the new stand.
That year Shels caught Rangers out as they underwent a huge overhaul of management and players. By the time Rangers settled down they had a decent year in Europe. Same with Celtic, they were in total disarray that year and got knocked out in the next round to Dinamo Zagreb (then named Croatia) and again to FC Zurich in the UEFA. Dunfermline again lost their managers and had a pathetic start to the SPL season being bottom for a fair while. Btw, Hearts gave a fair effort to earn their co-efficient including beating Bordeaux away last season. It was only last year Shels were put out by Olimpija Ljubljana who themselves were and still are in crisis in which their manager said Shels were safely the worst team they had ever played.
Last nights result:
Basel 1-2 Hearts - Decent result.
It should be based on comparing the two leagues where possible, e.g. inter-league games and players. The Cork-Limerick example doesn't neccessarily mean Limerick were better than Cork, but it meant they were capable of beating them and if they had've beaten or outclassed them several times, you could easily make a case that Limerick would hold their own against Cork in future seasons. Which is what we're doing here.
All of this is a bit pointless. Didn't Limerick knock Cork City out of the cup around the same season (give or take a season) that Bohs beat Aberdeen? Does this mean that the 1st divison is of a higher quality than the eL? Barry Prenderville was BRUTAL at Ayr United but got back into St Pats first team without much difficulty. Its going back a bit I know, but I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Gilzean play for St Pats...
The truth is I don't know how the SPL and the eL shape up, the eL certainly has improved in leaps and bounds but you can't make comparisons between 'cup matches' and the experiences of a handful of players. Now if an eL club (any eL club) could go out and gub Kilm$rnock....that would make me very happy for all of the right and all of the wrong reasons
Watching Hibs play Kilmarnock gives absolutely no insight into whether Shels would beat Hibs. Watching Shels v Hibs would.
Prenderville is an example, he seems to be the only one where an eL player did **** in Scotland, whereas Noel Hunt, Richie Foran, That Dempsey fella, Byrne and Sara are examples to the contrary.
So, if Shels play the Duns next season and beat them 10-2 on aggegragate, it would give no insight into whether or not Shels are better than Duns?
Watching Hibs play Kilmarnock gives absolutely no insight into whether Shels would beat Hibs. Watching Shels v Hibs would.
Thats true, having seen both the eL and Slovenian league live a good few times I did not expect Olimpija to put Shels out a year ago.
Prenderville is an example, he seems to be the only one where an eL player did **** in Scotland, whereas Noel Hunt, Richie Foran, That Dempsey fella, Byrne and Sara are examples to the contrary.
Sara is no example. We never saw how he did in the eL. If he was given a proper go maybe he'd have scored double his SPL tally and proved we are a weaker league. Hunt and Foran have done just ok, hardly set the world alight. No idea about Byrne but Dempsey has been doing well. But then again they have better facilities and you could argue better team mates.
So, if Shels play the Duns next season and beat them 10-2 on aggegragate, it would give no insight into whether or not Shels are better than Duns?
It would, but then again Dunfermline have been looking pretty crap this season so it may not say much about how the leagues measure up. Had Shelbourne or Cork met them around the same time as the Icelandic game I'm sure they'd ave put them out.
I honestly think that the top 4 from Ireland would hold their own in SPL.
Just My Opinion.
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