shocking racial taunts at spain v england

[shane123]

Conor 74 I don't follow Celtic buy the way. just find them English the most hypocritical shower ever. lived over there for years and have been at grounds at many lower divisions where racists chants are second nature. Just found it funny to hear the poor shocked england fans acting so innocent.

[lopez]

It was more than 2 years ago. And it was in many ways one of the last manifestations of a dying era.

It has been two seasons since Lennon's death threat and three and half since the booing at the Norway game. Only a ten year old would consider that a different era. Still as you'd say there's 'nothing like twisting events to suit what you'd like to believe, is there' ?Point about 'last manifestations' I'll come to later

That is complete and utter garbage. Football for All started at least a couple of years before Lennon signed for Celtic. And it was a result of massive pressure from NI supporters groups on the IFA to help them out in their (now successul) efforts to end sectarian singing.

What is garbage. That sectarianism at WP was likely to affect RC players and supporters attending NI matches? As for FFA being successful, what you are suggesting is that 'Football For All' is nothing more than what it initially looks like: A meaningless slogan. If it ran for two years before Lennon being booed, how did or has it succeed. What changed attitudes were perhaps things like the poor publicity in the unionist press, threat of UEFA sanctions (which I doubt would have occurred as Lennon is white), the fashion statements by 'Big' Donald Hodgen and John 'Grug' Greg when they met the bed-wetter on his release - hope you don't mind me bringing up this subject but shirts with the three mangy hyenas were in evidence for what some would term 'Irish' people - that took some of the less liberal NI fans onto a team where their views are appreciated, but nothing of course like this below, though, eh?

After Neil I'll never play for the North (Ireland on Sunday 25 August 2002)
UNTIL ONE year ago, Henry McStay was just another schoolboy dreaming of playing football for his country and emulating his heroes on the international stage.


A big, strong boy with a good right foot, he had already been identified by the talent scouts as a real prospect and, by the time he hit 17, he had donned his country's green shirt. But now McStay's allegiances have changed.The past year has been a watershed for the youngster. The shirt on his back is still green but the letters on its badge have been re-arranged. McStay hails from Lurgan, Co. Armagh, the home town of sometime Northern Ireland skipper, Neil Lennon.

Like Lennon, he was happy to play for Northern Ireland, to ignore the loyalist flags and anti-Catholic songs that are ever-present at international matches involving the North. Like Lennon, he just wanted to get on with it and rose through the ranks to captain the North's under-17 side.But things changed for McStay a year ago when Northern Ireland's loyalist supporters turned on Lennon after he signed for Celtic, a team they view as an Irish Catholic club. Lennon was booed at matches and graffiti went up in his - and McStay's - home town. 'Neil Lennon RIP' was written on walls in Lurgan and, for Henry, it was not the only writing on the wall.Though Lennon braved the bigotry and struggled on for another year in the green of the North, McStay made a decision to look to Dublin for international action. 'After Neil moved to Celtic, he started to receive abuse while playing for Northern Ireland and I didn't want that happening to me,' explained McStay, currently in the Leeds United's youth team.

'The players and the management in Northern Ireland are excellent. The problem is with a small number of lunatics.'My father has always been a fan of the Republic and he always brought me down to Lansdowne Road to see them play. It's my dream to play for the senior squad. During the qualifiers for the European Championships, my family was able to come and watch me play. 'If I was playing for Northern Ireland, that could not happen as I would be afraid they would be abused.''For me, one cap with the Republic is worth more than 100 with Northern Ireland. I have played at Windsor Park for Northern Ireland at schoolboy level and I captained the squad which won the Victory Shield - but I could never go there as a fan. Some of the fans do not want Catholics at the games.

'What has happened to Neil is an absolute disgrace and I feel so sorry for him. But I don't want to go through what he and his family are facing. This type of thing has happened before and, unfortunately, it will happen again. I don't want anything to do with it.'McStay's fears are not unusual. Though Catholics like Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill and Gerry Armstrong have all played for the North, many others have opted to play for the Republic. In recent years, players like Ger Crossley from Belfast and Mark McKeever from Derry have looked south. The politics of intimidation played a big part in their decision.Lurgan lies in the heart of one of the North's most notorious areas, the so-called Murder Triangle, where loyalist gangs have established a reign of terror since the 1970s. Lurgan, Craigavon and Portadown are synonymous with sectarian violence, while the church at Drumcree, just outside Porta-down, has hit the world's headlines for all the wrong reasons.

This is the triangle where human rights solicitor Rosemary Nelson was killed by a loyalist bomb, where Catholic Robert Hamill died after a loyalist mob 'danced on his head', and where reporter Martin O'Hagan was shot dead by a loyalist gunman.The violence, both republican and loyalist, is all the more bitter for the mixed nature of the area. Catholics and Protestant estates exist cheek by jowl in this part of the North. Terror gangs from both sides don't have to stray far to find targets, and people in the North have been murdered for lesser reasons than football.It was against this background that Neil Lennon grew up in the '70s and '80s. His parents still live at the family home at Hawthorne Avenue in Lurgan's Shankill Estate, a neat row of well-kept houses which lie in a quiet area of the town close to the main Lurgan to Portadown road.

While local sport suffered as a result of Lurgan's inter-community and sectarian problems, a few brave individuals worked hard to break down the barriers. One of them, a Protestant, recognised the footballing potential of the young Lennon and played a major part in helping him move to English soccer.One member of the local football community, who knows the Lennon family well but who declined to be named, described the events which forced Lennon to withdraw from the Northern Ireland squad this week as 'the product of a twisted and bigoted mindset'.

The source said the Lennon family had no involvement in politics. They were quiet people, he said, respected locally by both communities. When Neil lived there, he was all about football. 'Even when he played for local side Lurgan United, he stood out from all the other players. He had that bit of class which made him different. 'He wasn't interested in politics, he just wanted to play football.'That love took Lennon to Crewe Alexandra, West Ham United and Leicester, where a respect for manager Martin O'Neill led Lennon to follow his boss to Celtic, and eventually to an ultimatum from Northern loyalists.Still, Lennon never forgot his home town and has travelled back frequently to take part in a number of events involving local junior soccer clubs.On one occasion, he was the guest of honour and presented the prizes to the young players of Lurgan Town FC, a club which draws the vast majority of its players from the local Protestant community.His cross-community efforts are much appreciated by the locals, most of whom are too scared to speak publicly about this week's events.

'Neil had no hesitation in accepting the invitation from Lurgan Town,' said one member of the club. 'He never asked for a penny of expenses and covered the cost of the trip himself.'One organisation which did go on the record, however, was the local LVF, which stressed to Ireland on Sunday that it did not issue the death threat against Lennon last Wednesday. A senior LVF source said the organisation was not in the business of intimidating or threatening sportsmen or women. 'The LVF Army Council are making it quite clear it was not responsible for the death threat issued against Neil Lennon.

'The LVF do not issue statements or any other information without the use of a recognised codeword. The threat against Neil Lennon contained no codeword. It is irresponsible for the security forces to apportion blame without definitive proof. It is up to Neil Lennon to decide whether or not he wants to play for Northern Ireland; the LVF does not select the international soccer team.'But the loyalist organisation's comments have fallen on deaf ears this week. The only phrase that Neil Lennon, his family and the rest of football heard was the one threatening his life.
In fact what can really be termed a success? Lennon has left and a Celtic playing RC has yet to play again for NI. DG doesn't share your optimism that the bad old days have gone.

I/we (NI fans) have moved on. We don't ask for past abuses to be ignored- and I've said above I expect them to recur, sadly.

But then if all it takes is some meaningless slogan and campaign to make everything is OK, the Spanish FA are absolved, although they could do with telling Luis to stop listening to Gangsta Rap and point out that while it's coooooool for Dr. Dre and Snoop to speak to their fellow black men in such an insulting manner, it upsets the sanctimonious and hypocritical 'white' tabloids in England and faux liberals like Connor74 to do likewise.

[lopez]

* if you don't want the accusation of 'Brit-bashing', drop the constant references to 'Tans' and 'Scum'. Deal?

No deal!

It's not clear at all. Are you saying that because I'm agreeing with him, I'm solid with the Brits? Or that anyone who disagrees with you is?

With regards to the IFA this is the kind of conflict of interests that occurs when there are four bodies from one country.

Neither intention nor effect. No-one accused you, so why not drop it?

I'll come back to that

You're easily amused. You implied that the prison service deliberately treated Mubarek in a way that exposed him to violent assault. That's libellous.

There have been accusations that black versus white fights were arranged by the Screws. In such an atmosphere I don't think that an accusation of screws exposing Mubarek to 'violent assault' is libellous.

Hmm. On the one hand you're crediting foot.ie readers for their sensitivity to racism, then suggesting that they're unduly influenced by coverage of English football in the Irish media. Why can't you just accept that Irish fans are angry with explicit racism and want to criticise it? No hidden agenda applies.

Where's the thread on Aragones and Henry? Events involving the Scum or clubs from the Premiership will have a greater bearing on people here than other 'foreign' sides, not least due to 'Irish' newspapers coverage of them.

Tabloid media deal in instant vox-pop type opinion. But then I'm not defending the Sun or Mirror. Why does Juanito think the Spanish are ahead of London, by the way? This isn't a dig, but he is only 11. I agree with him anyway. Madrid's transport is better, the Latino block vote will kick in, and if it's in high summer plucky Paula will retire and we won't have to listen to the tabs bleating about her latest failure.

I think he saw something on Newsround on Tuesday or Wednesday. While I agree that transport links are more important than who manages to get the most shades of beige in a promotion video, if you believe Panorama, it's the number of beige envelopes that will win it, but there is always there's always The Scum what swung it.

Ah, right. So you accept that the Brit media did cover the story. The London tabs have given plenty of coverage to racism-related violence in northern English towns in the last couple of years. They're ****, yes, but that doesn't mean they always hide from the story.

They (tabloids) are a bunch of hypocrites as their past and future show us. The Mirror in 1996, the Scum in most of the eighties and nineties towards, as Sylvo points out, Bernie Grant and the athletics fans at CP in 1984 who were told by the Scum's editorial to go back to their 'homelands' are in the past, but what about the xenophobia of the present.

No- I called you a numbskull not because you're stupid- that's forgivable- but because you're a bigot.

Ahh the 'B' word. Wondered when that was going to make an entrance.

the 'apologists for the Spanish racism/Brits ask for everything anyway' posters here

What was that you were saying about no one lecturing me here on racism.

[MikeNI]

It has been two seasons since Lennon's death threat and three and half since the booing at the Norway game. Only a ten year old would consider that a different era. Still as you'd say there's 'nothing like twisting events to suit what you'd like to believe, is there' ?

#

Let me run it by you again. Back a few years ago, there was a vocal minorty who sang sectarian songs at every NI home match. This had already been ended by the 'booing' incident - which was 100 people (many not even NI regulars) out of a crowd of 7000. At the next match, against the Czech Republic, there was not one person booing against Lennon. A huge deal of progress had already been made and has continued to be made since then. Yes there have been setbacks along the way but we've come a very long way in the right direction.

What is garbage. That sectarianism at WP was likely to affect RC players and supporters attending NI matches?

No, that Football for All only started after the Lennon incident. As I said already

As for FFA being successful, what you are suggesting is that 'Football For All' is nothing more than what it initially looks like: A meaningless slogan. If it ran for two years before Lennon being booed, how did or has it succeed.

It had by that stage put a stop to sectarian singing. And the match after the one you refer to, no booing of Lennon, the idiots had been silenced. Success I think. As for the situation in 2004, the NI support has created a carnival atmosphere at matches, again free of the sectarianism of old. Success again I think.

What changed attitudes were perhaps things like the poor publicity in the unionist press, threat of UEFA sanctions (which I doubt would have occurred as Lennon is white), the fashion statements by 'Big' Donald Hodgen and John 'Grug' Greg when they met the bed-wetter on his release - hope you don't mind me bringing up this subject but shirts with the three mangy hyenas were in evidence for what some would term 'Irish' people - that took some of the less liberal NI fans onto a team where their views are appreciated, but nothing of course like this below, though, eh?

What changed was the NI fans were able to organise themselves, through the advent of fanzines, websites etc, to put an end to the sectarian crap. Do you want me to produce the fanzine articles of years gone by to prove this?

By the way that atricle is an excellent example of how some 'journalists' take wild liberties with the truth, for example:

"Like Lennon, he was happy to play for Northern Ireland, to ignore the loyalist flags and anti-Catholic songs that are ever-present at international matches involving the North."

When this article was written, the sectarian singing had been stopped. So that's just a blatant lie. As for 'loyalist flags', preumably this fool is talking about the Northern Ireland flag? Supporters of the NI team bringing the NI flag to NI matches eh? Shocking! Whatever next, England fans with England flags? RoI fans with RoI flags (would the writer have complained about "republican flags" at Landsdowne? Would he fu...)

"But things changed for McStay a year ago when Northern Ireland's loyalist supporters turned on Lennon after he signed for Celtic, a team they view as an Irish Catholic club. Lennon was booed at matches"

Not a mention of the fact this was a tiny minority and that many thousnads of NI fans got behind Neil. Or that and end was put to these idiots booing after that first game. I stood outside Windsor and sold a fanzine with a photo of Lennon on the front in both his NI and Celtic shirts - no-one said a word in argument with the sentiment we and others were trying to get across.

But then if all it takes is some meaningless slogan and campaign to make everything is OK,

Meaningless? You coments are a f**king disgrace. NI fans along with the FFA team have worked bloody hard to ensure the eradication of sectarian singing. NI matches are now fantastic occasions free from 'offensive chanting'. Yet you would pretend all this is meaningless. Some gall. How you have the cheek to complain about the sectarianism of the past yet claim the massive stps taken to eradicate it are 'meaningless', I would love to know. Pathetic.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner
No- I called you a numbskull not because you're stupid- that's forgivable- but because you're a bigot. Next.


I am not and never have been a bigot. I have continually in this thread deplored racism.
What's more I have never at any stage resorted to personal insult in my dealings with you. Nor have I used any of the plethora of sectarian slurs that I have become aware of during my life.
Feel free to disagree with my postings but do not resort to personal insults otherwise you lose your argument.

I deduce from the signature at the end of your postings that you are a Crusaders fan, which proves I am not stupid either. I am semi-familiar with the Irish League which I believe is largely ignored by the Dublin media and I happen to think that is a crime.Your league are our next door neighbours, if we must have other Leagues in our newspapers we should start with the Irish League and work outward from there.

Crusaders do not , in my experience have a lot of sectarian baggage. Linfield have, as a club, whatever about some of their supporters, never been as sectarian as Glasgow Rangers, nor indeed have Glentoran, MikeNI may be able to put me straight on this if I am wrong.

On the other hand Portadown have an ex -Loyalist paramilitary terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently.

Quote:
Hmm........calling someone a 'bigot'for taking a stance v.Fascism.......whatever next loyalists seek to get Irish passports!

Thanks for the support Davros

Duncan I find the whole idea of one faction marching down the street , which is inhabited by another faction,
in a triumphalist manner, confrontational, provocational and frankly ludicrous. It is also another form of racism.
This is the sad situation that pertains to the city you hail from, and where my mother and grandmother were born for the record, during the summer months. And that is not a bigoted statement, but one of historical fact.I suspect that 2005 will not be any different.

My statement of the riduculousness of marching applies equally to Orangemen down the Gravaghey Road, Or The Ancient Order of Hibernians marching down the Shankill chanting " F*** the Queen " and "Where's your Empire now Scum?" ! This second scenario would be equally intolerable as the first one I mentioned.
Although if Parity of Esteem is to mean anything than you could not have one without the other.

We, in the Republic, live in a constitutional democracy. We can for a small sum find out what our rights are.
The Constitution of the Republic costs less than €3.00 !
I voted in favour of a constitutional amendment, which guarantees your right, and that of everyone born ad raised on this island, should you or they choose to exercise the option , to Irish citizenship and all the rights that conveys on you. As a British Subject, you would need a legal historian and thousands of pounds and several years to discover what rights you have living in London. Again not Brit bashing, but a statement of fact.
This is because Britain does not have a written constitution or Bill of Rights.
David Trimble and David Ervine, two men with whom I do not share a political viewpoint, nevertheless are in their own ways trying to resolve our mutual difficulties on this island. For that I salute and respect them . I also happen to believe that if Northerners of whatever persuasion need passports to visit certain parts of the World ( and believe me there are many) where the UK one would not be welcome, then so be it. That is what I for one voted for.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Following the recent events at Blackburn v Birmingham in the English Premiership and the racial taunts lobbed at Dwight Yorke, the English media's reaction to what happened in the above match has an air of pot calling kettle.... etc.

England , still has a lot of work to do, as of many of the rest of us in Europe, to get their house in order in terms of stamping out racism in football.

[CollegeTillIDie]

MikeNI

If as you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, that the efforts of FFA has largely eliminated sectarian chanting at Northern Ireland matches then that is to be commended. The FFA campaign may inadvertently have been helped by the Wee North's barren spell without either victories or goals which ended earlier this year under Lawrie Sanchez's reign.

P.S. Do you and the other basically decent fans of Northern Ireland have any connection with an organisation that existed in the 1990's called NIFSA?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Or maybe,it's because you think U.C.D.is a 'hotbed' of Irish nationalism.......paranoia begins at home

Well as the song goes "if you know your history" You would realise that Irish Nationalism was actually first espoused by Ulster Presbyterians in the 18th Century. Which is why to hang the epithet Catholic and Protestant on the political divide is way too simplistic as there are some Catholic Unionists and Nationalist Protestants.

Which is one of the many reasons why sectarianism is completely idiotic not to mention historically anachronistic if you go back far enough.

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Well as the song goes "if you know your history" You would realise that Irish Nationalism was actually first espoused by Ulster Presbyterians in the 18th Century. Which is why to hang the epithet Catholic and Protestant on the political divide is way too simplistic as there are some Catholic Unionists and Nationalist Protestants.

Which is one of the many reasons why sectarianism is completely idiotic not to mention historically anachronistic if you go back far enough.

Have to agree with you my fellow UCD student. You've hit the nail on the head. Sectarianism is way too simplistic and generally reserved for those less well educated in society. Padraig Pearse once said as he stood on what was believed to be the grave of the Protestant leader, Theobald Wolfe Tone, "He was the greatest of Irish Nationaists; I believe he was the greatest of Irishmen, and if I am right in this I am right in saying that we stand on the holiest ground in Ireland."
The man that effectively created the idea of Irish republicanism was a Protestant.
Therefore, it can be dangerous to stereo-type. Perhaps one could argue that the link between Nationalism and Catholicism was inadvertedly introduced by Daniel O'Connell's politics in the eighteenth century.

Great posting CollegetilIdie.

[Dotsy]

Following the recent events at Blackburn v Birmingham in the English Premiership and the racial taunts lobbed at Dwight Yorke, the English media's reaction to what happened in the above match has an air of pot calling kettle.... etc.

England , still has a lot of work to do, as of many of the rest of us in Europe, to get their house in order in terms of stamping out racism in football.

As far as I can see the incident at Blackburn was covered quite extensively in the UK media, was acknowledged as been unacceptable and enquires have been started. Racism is alive and well in England as much as anywhere else but the FA and the clubs have made comendable efforts over the last 10-15 years to stamp in out in football grounds and seem to have been largely successful. The difference between what happened at Balckburn and Madrid is the scale of the incident and the numbers involved (it was two fans at Blackburn) and the non reaction of the Spanish FA to it. It was suggested by some that the chanting at the England game was a reaction of the Spanish fans to the vendetta by the English tabloids against their manager or even by some that it was English fans who were invloved. If that is the case then I assume that it was the Leverkusen fans who were chanting racial abuse at their own black players last night .

[pete]

IMO media attempts to blow all these events out of all proportion have been ludicrous.

Stuff at spanish game probably enhanced cos of english media coverage & the apparent strange opinions on what exactly racism is in Spain. English media moralising was funny given the racist chanting at England V Turkey last year.

The amount of disproportional coverage to the 2 english guys at Blackburn was laughable as was 2 guys from 30000 odd crowd

I don't condone any of this stuff but coverage given in england is completely hypocritcial.

[anto eile]

thsoe two fans in england went voluntarily to the police after the racist abuse..and they really think theyl get leniency for admitting to racism at a football match in an english court?

anyone see itv coverae last ight of real mierda agaisnt leverkusen at the bernabéu last night? who was the panelist charged with condemning the racist taunts of the ultras sur..none other than bobby robson pot kettle black etc

[lopez]

Let me run it by you again. Back a few years ago, there was a vocal minorty who sang sectarian songs at every NI home match. This had already been ended by the 'booing' incident - which was 100 people (many not even NI regulars) out of a crowd of 7000. At the next match, against the Czech Republic, there was not one person booing against Lennon. A huge deal of progress had already been made and has continued to be made since then. Yes there have been setbacks along the way but we've come a very long way in the right direction.

While it's nice to see you quantify what the progress you believe was made by FFA, the figure of 100 people leaves me confused. It was a hell of a lot more than 100 fans chanting sectarian (and racial) abuse at Irish players the two visits I made to WP (neither of which was the 'Night in November' of 1993). Perhaps you may dismiss this as 'international rivalry' but the abuse was as bad to your own RC players (let alone the Nationalists that the IFA are now attempting to recruit) as the Spanish monkey noises last week, had Spain fielded a couple of Black players themselves. The figure of 100 is perhaps the number who despise RCs - who play for Celtic and support an all-Ireland team - so badly, they'd even boo one if it was one of their own players.

No, that Football for All only started after the Lennon incident. As I said already.

Thanks for that!

It had by that stage put a stop to sectarian singing. And the match after the one you refer to, no booing of Lennon, the idiots had been silenced. Success I think. As for the situation in 2004, the NI support has created a carnival atmosphere at matches, again free of the sectarianism of old. Success again I think.

And this is down purely to Football For All? BTW, both the 'Twelfth' and the West Belfast Chuckyfest are described as having 'a carnival atmosphere', so don't know what you are implying by that.

What changed was the NI fans were able to organise themselves, through the advent of fanzines, websites etc, to put an end to the sectarian crap. Do you want me to produce the fanzine articles of years gone by to prove this?

Fanzines and websites? Do you mean ourweecountry and its fondness for referring to the Republic as beggars, Northern Republic fans as 'plastics' and prints an article about Irish fans stealing in Japan? If so, the sanctimonious double standards are as pathetic as anything British tabloids can come up with. Perhaps a fanzine like Arconada...Armstrong! (of which I read in the mid nineties) who at least kept this so-called 'rivalry' within human decency!

By the way that atricle is an excellent example of how some 'journalists' take wild liberties with the truth, for example:

A reporter! Economical with the truth? You dooooonn't say!

"Like Lennon, he was happy to play for Northern Ireland, to ignore the loyalist flags and anti-Catholic songs that are ever-present at international matches involving the North." When this article was written, the sectarian singing had been stopped. So that's just a blatant lie.

While the booing may have stopped, other intimidation (phone calls, graffiti) continued. The point of showing this article was to point out the potential for a haemorrhaging of Northern Nationalist player support for the Northern team. Personally, I don't care about the article's content, but its self evident to a chimp that this sort of thing - from a 'loyalist' newspaper - is going to shake a few people up more than a meaningless slogan. .

As for 'loyalist flags', preumably this fool is talking about the Northern Ireland flag? Supporters of the NI team bringing the NI flag to NI matches eh? Shocking! Whatever next, England fans with England flags? RoI fans with RoI flags (would the writer have complained about "republican flags" at Landsdowne? Would he fu...)

Loyalist, Unionist! Pedantic for most Nationalists (and many Unionists). Are you suggesting that the Northern Ireland flag represents (and more importantly is seen to represent) Northern nationalists? Are you happy that the Irish (or as you prefer to call it the RoI) flag represents you as the colour on it specifically states? The Northern Ireland flag is a flag of unionism, just as the tricolour is the flag of Republicanism (north and south) and irredentism. What's the problem in stating the obvious?

Meaningless? You coments are a f**king disgrace. NI fans along with the FFA team have worked bloody hard to ensure the eradication of sectarian singing. NI matches are now fantastic occasions free from 'offensive chanting'. Yet you would pretend all this is meaningless. Some gall. How you have the cheek to complain about the sectarianism of the past yet claim the massive stps taken to eradicate it are 'meaningless', I would love to know. Pathetic.

Yes meaningless! Did the IFA ban anyone from future matches after the Norway game? Was anyone 'named and shamed publicly? You said there was 100 people chanting. Not exactly hard to pick one or two out, especially as you say, a policy was in force to rid sectarianism. Finally, the IFA making a stand and hitting the rogue fans where it hurts. Or was it that the 100 fans either (as they were not football fans) returned to other pastimes or got the message from the media backlash that their own players were off limits (at least at WP)? Now little boy, if you want people to agree what a wonderful thing all this Football For All cojones is then, in the spirit of how you have addressed me, f*ck off back to those other morons on ourweeminds and you can all waffle on about beggars, tinkers, me, Davros and Tony Fearon and congratulate yourself on how much more liberal you are compared with the superprods! But before that, may I suggest a copy of Asian Wives and a handkerchief to calm yourself down!

[Poor Student]

The group of Real fans at the Leverkusen game were utterly unashamedly defiant. It seemed to be as if how dare someone have the audacity to criticise us. There were tatooed topless beer bellied blokes does tons of fascist salutes show on TV. Disgraceful. Pigs indulging in totaly boorish behaviour. I hope Real make examples of them.

[MikeNI]

While it's nice to see you quantify what the progress you believe was made by FFA, the figure of 100 people leaves me confused.

Quite simple. It was the approximate number of idiots booing Lennon.

It was a hell of a lot more than 100 fans chanting sectarian (and racial) abuse at Irish players the two visits I made to WP (neither of which was the 'Night in November' of 1993).

As I said, progess had been made even by 2001 from the time you talk of a decade ago. And much progress has been made since.

Perhaps you may dismiss this as 'international rivalry' but the abuse was as bad to your own RC players

No, I certainly don’t.

And this is down purely to Football For All? BTW, both the 'Twelfth' and the West Belfast Chuckyfest are described as having 'a carnival atmosphere', so don't know what you are implying by that.

Down to FFA allied to the efforts of NI fans. And I mean a proper carnival atmosphere free of offesive or bigoted singing etc.

Fanzines and websites? Do you mean ourweecountry and its fondness for referring to the Republic as beggars, Northern Republic fans as 'plastics' and prints an article about Irish fans stealing in Japan? If so, the sanctimonious double standards are as pathetic as anything British tabloids can come up with. Perhaps a fanzine like Arconada...Armstrong! (of which I read in the mid nineties) who at least kept this so-called 'rivalry' within human decency!

You’ll be familiar with my writings then. I was a contributor to Acronada…Armstrong!

However what A…A! never was, was an ‘activist’ fanzine, it never ‘campaigned’ on the issue of sectarian singing - rather preferring to say that it didn’t agree with it and then concentrate on the footballing issues.

OWC was different - a few quotes from you back in the days before FFA, around 1999/2000:

“It took just over a minute for the Billy Boys to start up at the Finalnd game. It was suggested that those who were singing it with such gusto were doing it as a reaction against [OWC]. McMenemy didn’t help things by saying the crowd were the ‘12th man’. Yes it was a great atmosphere and we did get behind the team but does the sectarian chanting encourage the team? McMenemy and a couple of Catholic, even a couple of proddy players, should come out and appeal for an end to the sectarian chants. What about it Lawrie?”

“There is an element among the support at Windsor that seem to think following Norn Iron means having a ‘Prod-Fest’, conveniently forgetting of course, the management and half the team aren’t Prods. I’m as proud as the next man to be an Ulsterman, I make sure my Ulster flag travels everywhere with me when I follow Norn Iron. I know all the words to all the ‘party tunes’ by like my politics I leave them behind when I enter the ground. I support Norn Iron and I’m not going to sing a song wishing I was up to my knees in half the team’s blood…If the IFA got rid of 200 sectarian singers they would have no problem getting 2000 supporters to replace them.”

And another thing - you complain about these labels you have listed. For the record I don’t use them. But I note that on this wbsite and indeed even on this thread there is a liberal splattering of ‘Tans’, ‘Huns’, ‘Scum’, ‘Planters’ etc. People in glass houses and all that.

While the booing may have stopped, other intimidation (phone calls, graffiti) continued

One idiot in a phone box. And neither the IFA nor NI supporters groups can do much about what some toerag paints on a wall.

The point of showing this article was to point out the potential for a haemorrhaging of Northern Nationalist player support for the Northern team. Personally, I don't care about the article's content, but its self evident to a chimp that this sort of thing - from a 'loyalist' newspaper - is going to shake a few people up more than a meaningless slogan.

Ireland on Sunday is a ‘loyalist’ newspaper?? And you keep saying ‘meaningless slogan’ - a hell of a lot of work went into that campaign and continues to go into it, why do you blithely dismiss this?

Loyalist, Unionist! Pedantic for most Nationalists (and many Unionists). Are you suggesting that the Northern Ireland flag represents (and more importantly is seen to represent) Northern nationalists? Are you happy that the Irish (or as you prefer to call it the RoI) flag represents you as the colour on it specifically states? The Northern Ireland flag is a flag of unionism, just as the tricolour is the flag of Republicanism (north and south) and irredentism. What's the problem in stating the obvious?

Firstly, by referring to ‘loyalist flags’ this leaves it open to the reader’s imagination to think NI fans were waving, Orange Order flags, UDA flags, UVF flags etc. Why not just be accurate and say “NI flags”?

Secondly, there’s the implication that there’s something wrong with NI fans using the NI flag.

Thirdly, I can’t imagine another country being treated in this way. Can you imagine for example the same reporter saying “David Humphries continues to play for Ireland despite the nationalist/republican flags”??

“Yes meaningless! Did the IFA ban anyone from future matches after the Norway game? Was anyone 'named and shamed publicly? You said there was 100 people chanting. Not exactly hard to pick one or two out, especially as you say, a policy was in force to rid sectarianism. Finally, the IFA making a stand and hitting the rogue fans where it hurts.”

Sadly stewarding at NI matches, and indeed all matches in NI (barring it seems Derry City who manage to do it quite professionally) is quite frankly of a pathetic standard. Yes the culprits should’ve been banned.

However to claim that the elimination of sectarian singing is ‘meaningless’ beggars (forgive my turn of phrase) belief. Why complain about its presence if its removal is ‘meaningless’?

[MikeNI]

Crusaders do not , in my experience have a lot of sectarian baggage. Linfield have, as a club, whatever about some of their supporters, never been as sectarian as Glasgow Rangers, nor indeed have Glentoran, MikeNI may be able to put me straight on this if I am wrong.

Whereas Rangers up till the 1980s had a policy of not signing Catholics, Linfield didn’t have such a policy officially. They had many Catholic players in their history but from the 19060s till the late 80s didn’t have any - their supporters argue that because of the political situation in NI Catholics couldn’t sign for Linfield. As for the Glens and Crusaders, they certainly have never operated a sectarian policy a la Rangers. Both have had some problems in the past with sectarianism among the support, though it is Linfield who have had and to some extent continue to have a problem with Superprod hangers-on.[/quote]

P.S. Do you and the other basically decent fans of Northern Ireland have any connection with an organisation that existed in the 1990's called NIFSA?

I went along to a few NIFSA meetings - it was led by a Glentoran and NI fan. Unfortunately NIFSA collapsed due to lack of support. The Irish League Supporters Association was set up last year - again I’ve attended ILSA meetings but it hasn’t met with a great response either and has been basically dormant since last season. For whatever reason, while NI fans can organise themselves, and IL fans can participate in their own supporters clubs, when it comes to supporting an organisation promoting IL fans interests there’s widespread apathy, which is a shame.

This does not withstand their attitude towards Celtic players for legitimate international sides

I’m not sure I know what you’re referring to here. At Cardiff, Hartson got very little abuse of any sort. I think any ‘Old Firm’ based abuse is wrong but surely you wouldn’t differentiate it from RoI fans booing Rangers players?

[Duncan Gardner]

Feel free to disagree with my postings but do not resort to personal insults

My apologies, that was rude. And out of character, I assure you. I've clearly been influenced by the foul-mouted English posters on here. But still...

these vile practices,which are allegedly representative of my community,FFS

recent evidence seems to show,you for one,are endeavouring to do the latter

wait for the Prison Service cover-up. Another small nail,in cross-cultural relations.....

the 'T*ns'......this is due to their continual double-standards,of which criticism remains apt

The vast majority of Celtic/Irish fans are not racist...whereas 15-20% minimum,of [England and Rangers fans] people who would go to games,are overtly racist

This doesn't excuse racism elsewhere.....which is all relative...this must be put into perspective!

Where to start? Correct me if wrong, but the first quote seems to be your oft-repeated suggestion here, that coming from a Protestant family gives you some special insight into unionist thinking or whatever. So that you don't need to back up the cartoon Provo catchphrases with any evidence. Am I right?

I don't need to start to integrate- I've been quite happy to live in NI, the Republic and England at different times. No general problems with any of them.

In the Mubarek case, it would be sensible not to throw out the allegations about serious crimes, just in case Blunkett is reading...

Constant references to Tans and Scum are simply answering one set of abuse and double standards with another, eh?

You offer no evidence for those figures. They're just empty prejudice.

Events in Spain are being put into perspective. Most are suggesting they play one or a few games to closed doors- the punishment is appropriate, even if other fans did worse 11 years ago and were let off. And that Luis Aragones should resign. I doubt even his vicar on foot.ie, Lopez Arrogantes, would have much of a problem with that.

what happened in spain was wrong but listening to england fans on tv saying it is the worst thing they have seen in years

Well, I've no brief for England nor anti-Spain and they're the worst I've heard since the mid 90s.

BOTH incidents are/were appalling and should NEVER be tolerated in our society

Well said

With regards to the IFA this is the kind of conflict of interests that occurs when there are four bodies from one country.

In such an atmosphere I don't think that an accusation of screws exposing Mubarek to 'violent assault' is libellous.

Where's the thread on Aragones and Henry?

Ahh the 'B' word. Wondered when that was going to make an entrance

What was that you were saying about no one lecturing me here on racism

Evidence? I notice you ignore my question before going off at this tangent. You're obsessive, son!

You are wrong. That's no defence against libel.

This is the thread about Aragones and Henry. Do try and keep up.

Yes, the b-word, when used sparingly. You'd be an expert on that, eh?

No-one had when I wrote that. Anyway you're overreacting to one comment by Conor.

Mike NI explains the background to improved atmosphere at NI games (in itself acknowledged by Lopez on previous threads) very well. He might suggest I'm a bit too pessimistic about problems recurring?

Adding to what Mike said, the founders of NIFSA included David (Glentoran) and Stephen (Cliftonville). Both are still active in the local game even though the former now works in England.

[Duncan Gardner]

Davros old chap, you're by far the most pompous, self-righteous poster here. Even more than Lopez 'some of my best friends are black' Arrogantes

Conor- even closer to home you could have mentioned Matty Holland?

[lopez]

Morning Mike. Nice to see that you've calmed down a bit today!

No, I certainly don’t.

Perhaps this is a bit unfair, but it was a question rather than an allegation. For instance many people will dismiss the same language towards opposition players as legitimate banter while their own is out of order.

Down to FFA allied to the efforts of NI fans. And I mean a proper carnival atmosphere free of offesive or bigoted singing etc.

I've seen the new WP. Yes the atmosphere is fantastic (no sarcasm intended) but it does not mean that sectarianism has been eradicated should certain events arise (visit of the Republic, a NI player who plays for Celtic, a player with political leanings in his spare time towards a party led by a bloke with a beard).

You’ll be familiar with my writings then. I was a contributor to Acronada…Armstrong!

Found issue May '96 this morning although I'm sure I had others. I had brief dealings with Dr. Wa who sent me a copy when he started up when I edited a fanzine and I gave A...A! a review.

However what A…A! never was, was an ‘activist’ fanzine, it never ‘campaigned’ on the issue of sectarian singing - rather preferring to say that it didn’t agree with it and then concentrate on the footballing issues.

Looking at (just one issue of) the fanzine now, that's true. However, neither did it stoke up sectarianism.

OWC was different - a few quotes from you back in the days before FFA, around 1999/2000:

“It took just over a minute for the Billy Boys to start up at the Finalnd game. It was suggested that those who were singing it with such gusto were doing it as a reaction against [OWC]. McMenemy didn’t help things by saying the crowd were the ‘12th man’. Yes it was a great atmosphere and we did get behind the team but does the sectarian chanting encourage the team? McMenemy and a couple of Catholic, even a couple of proddy players, should come out and appeal for an end to the sectarian chants. What about it Lawrie?”

“There is an element among the support at Windsor that seem to think following Norn Iron means having a ‘Prod-Fest’, conveniently forgetting of course, the management and half the team aren’t Prods. I’m as proud as the next man to be an Ulsterman, I make sure my Ulster flag travels everywhere with me when I follow Norn Iron. I know all the words to all the ‘party tunes’ by like my politics I leave them behind when I enter the ground. I support Norn Iron and I’m not going to sing a song wishing I was up to my knees in half the team’s blood…If the IFA got rid of 200 sectarian singers they would have no problem getting 2000 supporters to replace them.”

And then they allow the aforementioned article to be published. It's one thing that individuals use various insults on a message board, another for the web site/fanzine to sanction an article. Arguing that the article had nothing to do with them is laughable.

And another thing - you complain about these labels you have listed. For the record I don’t use them. But I note that on this wbsite and indeed even on this thread there is a liberal splattering of ‘Tans’, ‘Huns’, ‘Scum’, ‘Planters’ etc. People in glass houses and all that.

I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland. Neither does the website organisers agree with what I'm saying. It's just that there is more acceptance of people's views here by them, both yours and mine. If I came onto OWC and started kicking off the way you (and the two clowns at the beginning of the year) did I'd be banned quicker than I could say 'Football For All.'

One idiot in a phone box. And neither the IFA nor NI supporters groups can do much about what some toerag paints on a wall.

Yes one idiot (or someone with a vested interest in forcing Lennon out (ie: a Taig) but with 100 fans agreeing with his intention.

Ireland on Sunday is a ‘loyalist’ newspaper??

Isn't it part of the Belfast Telegraph group?

And you keep saying ‘meaningless slogan’ - a hell of a lot of work went into that campaign and continues to go into it, why do you blithely dismiss this?

Michael Boyd (like the British sanctimonious tabloids) should show a little more humility when talking about this subject. He wouldn't have wanted WP shut down for the sake of 100 people or the far greater number abusing the Republic players in 1994 and neither can I presume, would you. Surely he would be better suited in saying: 'We have made great strides in eliminating sectarianism and bigotry from our games. I am getting in touch with the FEF in conjunction with UEFA and FIFA and briefing them on the ideas, strategies and schemes that have helped bring back a carnival atmosphere to Windsor Park.' (I should be in PR ) But instead he goes all high and mighty while there is no concrete proof that sectarianism will not return in his own domain.

Firstly, by referring to ‘loyalist flags’ this leaves it open to the reader’s imagination to think NI fans were waving, Orange Order flags, UDA flags, UVF flags etc. Why not just be accurate and say “NI flags”?

It is accurate to equate the NI flag with unionism, however you have a point about other flags. These are absent from NI games although they make more than a fleeting appearance at the Scum's games.

Secondly, there’s the implication that there’s something wrong with NI fans using the NI flag.

I disagree with it being wrong to bring NI flags to NI games. But what's the problem with bringing flags that represent both communities to NI games, apart from the old rubbish that the Irish tricolour being the flag of just the 26 counties. It means more than that to Northern nationalists.

Thirdly, I can’t imagine another country being treated in this way. Can you imagine for example the same reporter saying “David Humphries continues to play for Ireland despite the nationalist/republican flags”??

NI flags have been flown at rugby games, so David Humphries does not play exclusively in front of tricolours.

“Yes meaningless! Did the IFA ban anyone from future matches after the Norway game? Was anyone 'named and shamed publicly? You said there was 100 people chanting. Not exactly hard to pick one or two out, especially as you say, a policy was in force to rid sectarianism. Finally, the IFA making a stand and hitting the rogue fans where it hurts.”

Sadly stewarding at NI matches, and indeed all matches in NI (barring it seems Derry City who manage to do it quite professionally) is quite frankly of a pathetic standard. Yes the culprits should’ve been banned.

And this is where FFA fails. As I've said, I don't blame the IFA themselves for bigotry and I'll explain why. They operated for year's under a regime that encouraged sectarian discrimination in all public areas. It needed the initiative for eliminating sectarianism to come from outside (fans, media, sponsorship) otherwise it risked alienating many of its own fans. The lack of any legislation (as there is in Britain and Ireland) for inciting hatred may be absent from NI (unless that incitement comes from waving the Irish tricolour and other 'flags' and 'emblems'). The presence of a lack of this kind of sanction undermines that FFA was responsible for the reduction in sectarianism and that this reduction could have been down to other factors like the press, UEFA threats, RC players threatening to withdraw from the side and as you state peer pressure from other fans.

However to claim that the elimination of sectarian singing is ‘meaningless’ beggars (forgive my turn of phrase) belief. Why complain about its presence if its removal is ‘meaningless’?

I never said that the elimination of sectarianism was meaningless, just that this particular programme is not as successful as you claim. Davros, for all his winding-up, makes the statement that sectarianism cannot be eliminated if it is rampant in the wider society. Since the GFA the division of RCs and Protestants has some ways increased (the Holy Cross incident the most high profile). In such a society it's dangerous for someone like Boyd to get complacent.

My apologies, that was rude. And out of character, I assure you. I've clearly been influenced by the foul-mouted English posters on here. But still...

I presume you mean me and Sylvo (Davros was born in Ireland) although with your perception of what is 'English' any newly arrived tourist would be given citizenship whether they wanted it or not. Is that the best you can do? I'm dissapointed. Even Dog Sh*te and Marcellus came up with far more imaginative 'insults' than you. Take Mike's copy of Asian Wives and get yourself off to the nearest toilet, ASAP!

[sylvo]

[QUOTE=Duncan Gardner]My apologies, that was rude. And out of character, I assure you. I've clearly been influenced by the foul-mouted English posters on here. But still...



DG, come on, a man of your caliber can do better then that. Your not going to get all jealous now because of some of us being born in Britain and you were'nt.


Cyber rucking aside, i've got a guide book for Poland, don't know if yer having a couple of days over there but if you are i'll bring it along on the 16th.