shocking racial taunts at spain v england

[sligoman]

It was disgraceful.I hope when the English FA report this to Fifa and Uefa that Spain are severly punished because this is not acceptable in Football, they're living in the past.I also think,out of protest both Spain and England's players should of walked off the pitch and abandon the game.

[jebus]

It should be left up to the Spanish FA to identify and punish those who they think is responsible (about half the spanish crowd so), but I agree with the comments on the Brit media. You'd swear Emile Heskey has never had bananas waved at him or heard those monkey noises in the Premiership. Or that whenever England go abroad they kick eight shades out of anyone they deem fair game, i.e. the non-english.

[sligoman]

Or that whenever England go abroad they kick eight shades out of anyone they deem fair game, i.e. the non-english.

Suppose you're right on that one.They have a lot of football hooligans themselves.

[sligoman]

If there were racist chants then that is deplorable and lamentable and it is not suitable behaviour for football fans," a spokesman for the foreign ministry said on Thursday.

"I am certain that it was only a small element of the crowd and Spain strongly rejects such behaviour."

The game at Real Madrid's Bernabeu stadium was marred by continual monkey noises directed at visiting black players and by a regular chorus of "If you are not f**king black jump up and down" sung by large sections of the 55,000 crowd.

http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/...to658695.shtml

[lopez]

It has always existed therefore it doesn't merit discussion? Ah sure let them make monkey noises, they are probably English anyway!!! Such rubbish. A large element of Spanish fans made monkey noises last night and at the under 21 game. It needs to be called to account.

Sorry you didn't get my attempt at sarcasm there. You admit you are too young to remember the bad old days. You're willingness to forget all about the day the Scum smashed up the West Stand because of some monkey chants suggests you are more wet behind the ears than even I thought. Well, sadly, I'm not. I don't need lectures on racism at football. My first sight of English fans in the flesh was a bunch of Cambridge Utd 'supporters' shouting abuse and threats and throwing food at an Asian woman pushing her pram in Luton. Frankly IMO that deserves more contempt than a bunch of overpaid sportsmen getting compared with apes. Motson's dirge was incidentally embarrassing as he was quite quick to dismiss the racial abuse of Ruud Gullit during a game with the Scum I watched one night in the late eighties, as 'barracking.' If he called it 'sickening racism' then, as he was quick to call it now, I'd have a some respect. But as Davros rightly points out, racism is only highlighted when it suits the Tans.

Am I against the discussion of racism? What do you think? I'm just wondering why now. Because it's the Tans that it's happened to? All of a sudden it's time to shove a cut onion in our handkerchiefs. People on here should be a little more concerned about the anti-Irish racism of England fans. I was at work at Wembley one international day and these c*nts came up the stairs not only singing that 'No Surrender' sh*te but screaming stuff like 'kill all those Irish b*stards'. Oh but, but, but, they're not all racists. But all of a sudden Spain's the new third Reich.

Personally I'm all for PC and anti-racism, if only for the fact that it p*sses people off like The Scum readers currently venting their spleens about racism this morning but giving out about illegal immigrants, black muggers and Islamic terrorists the rest of the week. But - and you might find this truly offensive but I don't care - for personal reasons previously divulged, when it comes to the Scum, I couldn't give a sh*t what happens to them, even if the black players were presented with a bunch of bananas each before the game. And before you - and Mr. 'I'm no racist Connor74' - choke on your cappuccino, this has nothing to do with them being black and everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - to do with them playing for the scum.

Where has anyone here said they should get away with this.......

I am! The Scum have got away with smashing up much of Europe's bars and our stadium for 25 years. Why should anything happen to Spain because of racist abuse in ONE game?

...the Spanish were highly insulted at the British media's reaction to Aragones comments and a lot of last night's stupidity was down to a desire to wind up the English and expose their hypocrisy.

I'd say you've hit the G spot. I've yet to hear this sort of racism during La Liga matches on Sky or the few games I've gone to in Spain. The nearest thing was Deportivo's Manuel Pablo being called a monkey at Athletic Bilbao. But that's all right for all the faux liberals and anglophiles on here as Manuel Pablo is technically a honkey. Nor has this happened at other Spain games. I watched the game with Peru in the Spring on TVE and there was no abuse of their black players. And Spain's game with Israel in 2001 passed off without incident despite being played in 'fascist' Bernabeu. Why all of a sudden did it start last night? Had this anything to do with the fact that the monkey chant originated in the birthplace of football and that this was some sick attempt at honouring In-ger-land's contribution to the people's game - a bit like the Germans singing 'Football's Coming Home!'?

The problem in Spain is that you have right wing ultras groups like the Ultras Sur, Boixos Nois and the Frente Atletico (and many more) who are actively helped by the clubs- e.g. the Ultras Sur at Real: some of their leaders would be on very friendly terms with the establishment at Real, and their section of the ground was rebuilt by the club to suit them, so they could make more noise. I remember when Freddy Rincon signed for Real in the mid 90's, he was only the 4th black player in the club's history and he was driven out by these scum- there were things like "blacks out" and swastikas daubed on the wall of the Bernabéu the day he signed. Real have improved, but driving these filth out of the ground completely is the only solution. Its massive problem in Spanish football, and there's no quick fix.

The groups mentioned are all right-wing. One book on the 'White Power'/Skinhead scene in Spain - Diario de Un Skin by Antonio Salas - shows Raul and Figo both posing with flags and scarves with neo-nazi insignia of the Ultras Sur for the fascists fanzine, while Salgado is pictured on the cover of one edition while a neo-nazi symbol dominates the rest of the page. Many clubs have an almost exclusivity of one or the other in terms of their Ultras although others have both. A club like Athletic Bilbao which has a profoundly left-wing fan base does not sign black players (the 'Basque only' rule which also includes players born in Castillian Rioja) and I was talking to one fan on my visit there who was quite proud, that unlike Deportivo, there were no 'mulatos' in his team. However I wouldn't say racism is the problem in Spanish football that it was in Britain in the eighties. Real have signed numerous black players since Rincon and there are enough left wing clubs with black players that would kick up a fuss if this sort of thing was happening every week. The problem is that the Black minority in Spain is currently very small. That is why Aragones racist remarks made headlines and were condemned by newspapers such as MARCA, but no one called for his resignation. As for Spanish society, The Voice - a newspaper who's hardly backward in going forward on matters of racism - voted Spain the best country in Europe for a Black man or woman to live in a few years back.

[WeAreRovers]

Agreed with the Sh*ms man!

How do you think I feel? I'm agreeing with someone who calls me a "Sh*ms man"...oh, and Lopez.

Seriously though, this holier than thou crap from the English is hard to take. What does anyone think of the reaction to Frank McLintock? More over the top PC rubbish as far as I'm concerned. I detest racism but the PC brigade get on my tits almost as much.

KOH

[WeAreRovers]

And when it comes to issues of race, for you the English have always been and will always be the worst.

No sane man could disagree with that.

Iraq, Palestine, Northern Ireland, Kashmir, Zimbabwe etc etc. All conflicts which have their roots in perfidious Albion. The Brits are to blame for everything, ever. So there.

KOH

[Karlos]

I think we have a case of so called 'tan-itis' on here - a look closer to home might help.

1) If I'd one euro for eveytime I heard abuse thrown at someone who had the misfortune to play even a second for Rangers, I'd be a millionaire.

2) Two is the number of complaints I have had to make to the FAI about abuse of one of our players by our own fans (Bling Bling Clinton!) in a friendly Vs Denmark

3) Three is the number of times one gentleman abused Kanu during the friendly Vs Nigeria in 2002 before we had him evicted

4) Four is the number of minutes it took me to enter and then leave after comments were made by Irish fans in a pub in Ballsbridge about my asian friend before the brazil game in 2004

5) five is the number of people we reported to the FAI for racially abusing Patrick Kluivert and J.F. Hasselbaink at Lansdowne Road in 2001

thank god us Irish aren't an racist bunch! If I'd a euro for everytime someone in a pub started a sentence with 'Those refugees......' I'd also be even wealthier!!!

Racism is a worldwide problem not exclusive to english, spanish or others and unfortunetly exists in Ireland as strong as anywhere else

[Bowsy]

Sorry you didn't get my attempt at sarcasm there. You admit you are too young to remember the bad old days. You're willingness to forget all about the day the Scum smashed up the West Stand because of some monkey chants suggests you are more wet behind the ears than even I thought.

Yes i thought you were seriously suggesting the English made monkey noises at SWP.

Yes i am wet behind the ears but refuse to take to the idea that no action needs to be taken because the "scum" were the recipients.

No, i never experienced the bad old days and nor do i want to. The fact that England have gotten away with it in the past is no reason to forgive this behaviour in the present. And i'm not for a minute suggesting this is some endemic problem in Spain and England are a troop of little angels. it's racism therefore it should be addressed. That's the only rationale i'm using.

The reason i'm posting here is not because of the admittedly hypocritical English outrage but because that was the first game i have seen in long time where the level of racist abuse was quite so audible.

[lopez]

The reason i'm posting here is not because of the admittedly hypocritical English outrage but because that was the first game i have seen in long time where the level of racist abuse was quite so audible.

I wholeheartedly agree. Leaving aside all other factors (basically the Scum) it was the worst I've heard in years. But I'm afraid I can't stand the bunch, and I make no apology for it.

I took a look at the TVE news this afternoon and they are far from indifferent to the racism that occurred. However the level of what they call violence from the Tan players was also disgusting. I think Liam asked why things got worse as it went on. I think the answer lay in the montage of fouls played by TVE today that were dished out by a team who were skilfully out of their depth (even Ireland in the first Swiss game had more than 43% of the possession chasing the game as they were) and could only cope by acting like the people you usually associate with following them. Some people may remember some of the dirty Spanish sides of the seventies and eighties (in particular Barcelona against Spurs in the 1982 cup Winners Cup) and the uproar they caused. Well they had at least one player willing or able to play football.

Karlos. It's Tan-itis alright, but you're right about the so-called Greatest Fans in The World. I noticed some not so loud racism directed at Clinton around me at the Bulgaria game, and I've heard about people f*cked out for racism. Clinton has had hacks at him before more than other people and that sh*t he got off Frei (??). But it was given scant coverage. Similarly, where's the thread about Reyes being told to tell Thierry Henry that he sh*ts on his whore mother. Nothing! This is why I believe the thread is fuelled more by Tan propaganda in Ireland (by the BBC, the Tan press masquerading as 'Irish', and their compadres in rags like the Daily Blueshirt) than any real concern for racism.

Connor. I heard you were some form of advocate so I take it you've got some intelligence. So why bring up a story of being mugged by an Irishman in response to racist attacks?

Also, when people say they are against the US government, McMurders, Kentucky Fried Rat or other parts of corporate America it doesn't mean that they hate all Americans. Similarly, the support for Palestinians (and carrying the nation's flag which I've noticed you equate with a swastika) doesn't mean your anti-Semitic. Also you really do need to dissect people's prejudices a bit more. Being anti -Scum doesn't mean that me and the little Buddha hate everything British no more than being a member of a party once frequented by Jackie Healy Rae makes you a racist. In relation to racism, Davros mentioned the Germans, but the third Reich lasted, what?, 12 years. English/Racism has breached nearly 400 years. I think you can see the difference.

Just think of my view of the Scum as a grievance against a certain British fast food Chain that poisoned me one night with salmonella and not the British people themselves (many of which don't give a f*ck about the Scum, Eastenders, Coro, or other aspects of the country's popular culture). I mean, the Scum themselves are getting more like that everyday with the patenting of three mangy hyenas as their corporate logo.

[Éanna]

Real have signed numerous black players since Rincon and there are enough left wing clubs with black players that would kick up a fuss if this sort of thing was happening every week.

Yeah, thats true. there has been progress, but that has been because these black players have been successful and the filth who abused rincon, have accepted them because of their success. I recall about 2 years ago, buying Marca to find a 4 page report of the waving of swastikas at the bernabeu by members of the ultras sur, at a number of games in the previous 2 weeks. they weren't punished AT ALL by the club, not even kicked out.


I know what these groups are like, I've studied them in quite a bit of detail, and while there are some left-wing ultras groups in spain, the majority are right-wing and very racist. That happens everywhere- the problem is that its accepted by officialdom, and there's no real effort to do anything about it. BTW, how many black players have represented spain internationally? Engonga is the only one i can think of.

[eoinh]

I have to say that i think that we irish are an extremely racist society. The things i hear on a daily basis about people of other colour, races and religions is frightening.

We dont boo at football matchs. It just means we dont show our racisim at footbal matchs. Found this interesting

[Pat O' Banton]

It just means we dont show our racisim at footbal matchs. Found this interesting

Sadly I don't even know if thats true.

I remember standing on North Terrace at the Ireland v Nigeria game 2002 and the amount of causal rascism in peoples comments was shocking (repeated use of n****r just talking about the game - children standing there using same word parents not even passing remarks on it.) It can be asked did people know that this was offensive, cultural differences, lack of knowlegde etc. but this would be a profoundly insulting argument to those, like I hope everyone on this board who condems rascism.

[Closed Account 2]

Last night was pretty disgusting, we all know that England themselves have history of trouble (I'm sure we all heard those morons singing "My Grandad killed your Grandad" watching the match in Munich in 2001, etc). But thats a seperate issue - irrespective of who they were playing, for a section of the Spanish fans to make monkey noises at black players is just utterly wrong... it was so blatant too, I really couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

The Real Madrid ultras do have a bad reputation for that sort of thing. I remember reading that there were a few of them who regularly wore SS and Nazi regalia (flags, t-shirts and the like) to games... I don’t think other Spanish clubs are as bad (eg I think Barca and Atletico have more "moderate" ultras (for want of a better phrase) and both have had black players playing for them regularly (eg Davids, Kluivert, Ronaldinho, Hasselbaink, Perera).

Most Spanish people I know would have been disgusted at what happened last night, and that’s why I found it so surprising. Some of those fools in the Bernabeau have really sullied the image of Spanish football.

[lopez]

This thread frankly is depressing...'Scum'...'tans'...any chance of being able to discuss matters without the childish terms of abuse every two words?

Not from me you won't!

The last post to the effect that the racist chants were bad, but the way the English played....now THAT was REALLY terrible, is really scraping the barrel of the 'let's throw everything at the English' trend...

I'm still wondering why you mention some deadbeats with the same nationality as yourself pinching your money with the bog standard snide and unfunny comments that we've come to expect, when someone is speaking about racial assaults?

[Karlos]

Have to say, this has been quite an interesting debate! I think the on thing that we are all in agreement on however is that racism has no place in football and more importantly to us has no place in Lansdowne Road or where- ever the irish team play.

I haven't always got a great deal of time for the FAI but I must say that in my experiences and through the experiences of my collegues I have found them generally proactive as an organisation in the fight against racism and have seen them take action against the people committing this most vile action.

I think as Fans it is important that we do not allow this sort of thing to happen. Especially since the advent of all-seater at Lansdowne, it's incredibally easy to pin-point a racist even after the event. Unfortunetly friendlies are harder due to the terraces and the untrained stewarts unwilling to get involved in such matters.

I think the one thing that annoys me about some Irish fans at times however is the hatred towards the England Football Team. I understand why some people feel the way they do about the country, it's previous regimes etc and I'm not going to preach to anyone about it on here, it's just something that sits uneasy with me. I have many English friends, I enjoy watching English football (or should that be french, c'mon Arsenal), i enjoy visting England, i've never been treated with anything other by respect by english people - I even am a member of the FA's Coaches Association and whatever I may feel towards herself in the palace has no bearing on the players I spend the majority of my waking hours watching! I have no shame in supporting an English Team with English Players (although good oul Chippy Brady is still the man!!!) and I'd consider myself a bit of a hipocrite to cheer Sol Campbell & Ashley Cole one week and have to hate them the next week! Although I would make an exception should we ever have the misfortune to sign GARY NEVILLE!!!!


Sorry Lads, rant over

[max power]

what bout an FAI offical calling a black player a "monkey".....it happened, eric lavine was called a monkey by a linesman, he got sent off for decent when he went mad after it happened, some one should remember the game in question and the linesman, digusting.

[Duncan Gardner]

But I presume from your continued use of 'T*ns' that you view many issues through your hatred of all things English...

Though not including actually living there for the past 20 years ?

Why should anything happen to Spain because of racist abuse in ONE game?

Serious abuse merits a serious punishment. At least one game in a closed stadium would be appropriate, I think.

[Duncan Gardner]

The difference being that I don't constantly abuse their country by reference to a war 80 years ago

[Bowsy]

Fair enough.....but what about the Puppets re.Lennon & more seriously,the continued bad behaviour of the T*ns,Turks,Germans & Croats(& various misc.E.Europeans) ...... there's hardly been any parallels set!

Appreciate this side of the argument and the Spanish would be very unfortunate to receive an unprecedented punishment for a first offence but something needs to be down Europe wide. IMO A slap on the wrists for the Spanish FA (not points deducted or anything like that) and some strict guidelines set out stating that such behaviour in future by any nation will result in deducting points/games behind closed doors etc would be appropriate. Is there an enforceable code of conduct for fans?

I know i'm dreaming but UEFA and FIFA need to take a more proactive approach to this by hitting FAs where it hurts.