Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Stokes?

He's been pretty awful for Celtic in recent times, he might score v. the other lot, but Germany? Only if Beckenbauer is playing...

[Stuttgart88]

Kingdom, well made points.

I'm just not sure Stokes is on good enough form right now. I think we must put pressure on high up the pitch, but equally we probably need two deeper lying midfielders. Whelan is nailed on and Meyler is likely to start RB, meaning it's between Gibson and Hendrick for CM.

Hoolahan did some great pressing in advanced positions against Italy, one time dispossessing a CB setting up Long for a one on one.

I think Stokes is better suited to coming in from the right rather than playing centrally. I think Long is probably the guy to play in the central role.

McGeady should be nailed on too, so it's between McClean and Pilkington for the other wide berth. Quinn is an option too if O'Neill wants to keep things tight and have an ankle biter out there. Quinn could play centrally as well as left side.

It'll be really interesting to see how O'Neill approaches this. After a year of watching him we really know nothing about his approach other than that it was definitely very Trap like in Tbilisi.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd have Stokes out wide before I have him up top on his own. Physically, I don't think he has what it takes to hold the ball up while he waits for players to come and support him, but his crossing and link play are generally quite good which would lend itself to the wide attacker role.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.

And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...

[Stuttgart88]

I can't see O'Neill starting Brady. I really really hope Walters isn't seen as a wide option. He should only be considered as a front man and as part of a pairing, not a lone striker.

aB, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't, aren't we? I think we should give Germany a right go, while keeping disciple. At the very least it'll be a dry run for the November game where we will also need to play an assertive game.

[geysir]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.

And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...

We wouldn't necessarily have to be putting the Germans under pressure, we would just be losing possession higher up the pitch than usual.

[tetsujin1979]

Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say our two games against them last time showed that Germany are at their most dangerous when you let them have the ball and try to defend deep. The teams that have had any sort of luck against them in recent times - Sweden, Ghana, Algeria - all played at a high tempo and tried to disrupt them in their own half.

Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.

Delaney too.

[tetsujin1979]

Delaney too.

not in the final squad, although part of the wider "panel" if you like

could have been a chance for Mark Connolly too. Or Shane O'Neill, if they wanted to put a cat amongst pigeons.

If you want a quick conspiracy theory - Lenihan was called up to distract from the inevitable questions about Keane's book.

[Kingdom]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.

Listen I'm not claiming Stokes is the oracle, and to be fair the definition of an in-from Stokes isn't quite the same as an in-form Thomas Mueller, or Robbie Keane. My point being that an in-form Stokes, should never really be a huge threat compared to other international forwards, but he obviously did something right against Germany 12 onths ago.Technically he has the type of game whereby we would benefit if we manage to win possession high up the pitch or if we break ourselves.

I'm not a Celtic fan so if people who watch him week-in week-out say he cannot be consdidered then fair enough.

And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...

[/QUOTE]

Scotland is a month away. We've an opportunity, however slim that might be - and it's very slim-, but an opportunity nonetheless, to go a point up on Scotland in comparable fixtures if we can come away from Gelsenkirchen with a point. So the Scotland game can be parked for a while.
I don't forget at all how good the Germans are on the break, I've watched more German football than any other football the last few years, and they have the ability to cause us absolute horrors - regardless of how we approach the game.
The tactics I suggest would be useful in all of our away matches to be fair, and I'd be very confident that a similar approach in Celtic Park would most definitely reap more dividends than in North West Germany, so use it as a training match if that's the case, and accept the possibility of zero points against Germany, by trying to hone the tactics ahead of the first of four crunch ties.

I worry about your last point though, I worry that we're not going to put pressure on Germany high up at all, and invite them to break us down. Personally speaking, it is hard not to expect Jogi to pinpoint our fullbacks as the weak link. Perversely his own full-backs are where Germany are incredibly weak, and I think if we were to target them, and actually use the brain and alternate the sides from which we pressurise, by going on the front-foot from early on, that we could really turn the game into a scrap, and that is where Germany aren't so hot. it's what USA and Ghana both did, and both had success. Argentina too, but in a far more limited manner. If we allow Draxler, Gotze and in particular Schuerlle to attack Meyler and Ward, then the floodgates will open very quickly.

Say you swop out Stokes for Walters, or Stokes for McClean, and use the players that I picked, really it is a team that can be moulded into a couple of different formations, from the traditional 442, to the 451/433 either defensively or offensively.

[Stuttgart88]

Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.

Agreed, which shows to me there really is at least something going right in some parts of Irish football.

[Dodge]

Strange one. Lenihan not deemed good enough for the last ROI under 21 squad (even with Matt Doherty injured)

http://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2...488?tab=report

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure which is stranger though. Lenihan being called up, or successive underage squad selections. The latter have been very erratic down the years.

[razor]

Strange one. Lenihan not deemed good enough for the last ROI under 21 squad (even with Matt Doherty injured)

http://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2...488?tab=report

That match report has Lenihan as part of the starting team.
different Lenihan?

[Kingdom]

We wouldn't necessarily have to be putting the Germans under pressure, we would just be losing possession higher up the pitch than usual.

You could look at it that way. We tend not to hold onto possession too long as it is. If you break the pitch into six segments (three either side of the halfway line) you'll find we tend to lose the ball in the first segment of the opponents half the most and generally that is where our furthest forward player is. That generally concentrates play into the segments closest to our goal, which invariably concentrates pressure more onto our back 6. Now if we're going to continue to concede possession, then it makes sense to do this further away from our goal, and even just by shifting that play up one further segment, and consciously push our front 1/2 up onto the shoulders of Hummels and Boateng, and the two wide players into the face of the full-backs, it means that momentum generally will have to start further into the German half. That will only work however if our back 4 push up from the split of the closest two segments to our goal of our half into the split of the two segments furthest from our goal.

That sounds like poppy-****, but there is method to the madness, believe me. The problem is that it requires high-intensity, huge concentration levels, and complete faith in your players doing exactly what they should be doing. All facets that players and management have failed in the recent past. Problem too when a few of our players aren't either fit (Gibson/Hendrick/Ward) or used to their position (Meyler).

John O'Shea and Glenn Whelan are going to be crucial. Germany are likely to employ the false or roving forward in Mueller meaning long stretches whereby our centre halves have nobody to mark as they would expect in the EPL. It will mean that they'll have to be alert to the doubling up on the Irish full-backs, meaning one will most likely get dragged out of the centre, probably Wilson, meaning Glenn Whelan will have to be prepared to drop an extra 5 yds to civer this gap.

[Stuttgart88]

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair play kingdom, your rationale makes great sense, but the only flaw is you/we overestimate the relative abilities of the players to carry out such an ambitious game plan...

If Whelan & Ward both play, we're majorly screwed anyway. Wouldn't ever pick either of them again after Saturday, at this stage would rather have 10 Mark Nobles than those two.

[Kingdom]

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

Exactly. And you don't need to have good players to do it, you need to have willing players.
The other factor is the defence. They need to be expecting that a pass somewhere amongst the Germans will go astray because of the pressure our players up top would be placing on them, and then when it goes astray, the back 4 push up that extra 5yds to cramp the pitch, likewise midfield pushing up the extra 5 yds with Whelan doing half that with an eye to a counter.
It is pretty effective when done, but really needs buy in from everyone. If that system was being deployed I'd probably push for McClean wide left, purely for stamina and pace on the break, having thought about it some more.

[tetsujin1979]

That match report has Lenihan as part of the starting team.
different Lenihan?

yeah, it's Blackburn's Darragh Lenihan. I made the same mistake

[Kingdom]

Personally I think Glenn Whelan gets too tough a time of it. He carries out the orders of his manager. He is, and has been for some considerable time, Stoke's MVP. He has been consistently excellent for them.
I'll put that into context; I'm an extremely optimistic guy, generally speaking, and I absolutely abhorr bad football, irrespective of the level/standard of the game I'm watching. However, one of my favourite players in the last decade, has been Lucas Leiva. The level of abuse that guy took, and still takes, from Liverpool fans is nothing short of disgusting. A guy who totally changed everything he was good at in his position, who sacrificed you could say, to become central - despite what goons on the Kop would have you believe - to how the Torres Liverpool era team functioned so well. Closes space, tackles, tactically fouls, intercepts, distributes effectively, and sits to allow the perceived skilled leaders do their undisciplined best. Every team needs an absolute workhorse, and Whelan is our Lucas Leiva.

Has he had some stinkers for us- yes there are times he hasn't played effectively, but I would say a few of those performances can be attributed to absolutely prehistoric tactics.
I would definitely say that Glenn Whelan in theory should be phased out of our first eleven, if Mac is allowed to play in his withdrawn pivot as he does for Everton, alongside Gibson. McCarthy offers all that Whelan does, but with better quality when he receives the ball or breaks with it.