2014 World Cup

[DannyInvincible]

I saw a bit of it but was cycling through the thread quickly so didn't get to read it all. Yeah, I am of the opinion that making contact with the ball isn't enough - you need to make enough contact to affect the ball, otherwise it's a foul. Kenny Cunningham on the highlights show on RTE yesterday morning said exactly what I was thinking. Dejagah flicked the ball and its lightly brushed Zabaleta's foot with no real effect on the ball, then he barrelled through the player. Has to be a penalty.

I think I'd have to agree with you that contact with the ball alone shouldn't be enough to cancel out the possibility of a foul having occurred. Do you know what the official line on it is or if refs have any further guidelines on the matter besides regulatory clarification as to what is meant by "careless"? I was having a look around the web for some thoughts and opinion on the actual significance of making contact with the ball but my search was largely fruitless.

Nothing to do with bad management in England then?

Y'reckon it's down to bad international management or bad club management? Or are you referring to Hodgson in particular?

I'm not sure what a player's motive in wanting to avoid international duty might be - ask Stephen Ireland how it is to have no affiliation with one's national team - but I'm not sure what a witch-hunt will achieve for England here. Naming and shaming?... It sounds like the type of mid-summer campaign the Daily Mail would happily sponsor in the run-up to a new season. I hope Harry Redknapp does the decent thing and keeps his trap (and jeep window) shut on this one. Gerrard is just a nasty piece of work. Imagine the reaction of English fans at games up and down the country week in and week out towards the "named and shamed". I can't say I have much time for Gerrard at all. For a captain, he possesses such scant emotional maturity and commands very little sense of authority. In fact, his interviews of late have done little besides humour me; it's as if he's desperately trying to exude this wise, authoritative aura by saying things he thinks someone in his position should be saying, but he fails so miserably at genuinely convincing me he's ever been a leader. He's a cod. Thoroughly uninspiring.

If players aren't interested in the international game, leave them be. Their loss. Why bother wasting energy getting angry about them? It's a (relatively) free country and there's no duty upon them to show up against their will. Forget about them. Instead, focus on players who do want to represent their country and ensure the experience is an appealing one for those willing to give up their time.

A lot of players are also pressured out of international fixtures by disapproving club managers. It's fairly well known that Alex Ferguson loathed Roy Keane and Ryan Giggs competing in international friendlies.

[BonnieShels]

I think I'd have to agree with you that contact with the ball alone shouldn't be enough to cancel out the possibility of a foul having occurred. Do you know what the official line on it is or if refs have any further guidelines on the matter besides regulatory clarification as to what is meant by "careless"? I was having a look around the web for some thoughts and opinion on the actual significance of making contact with the ball but my search was largely fruitless.



Y'reckon it's down to bad international management or bad club management? Or are you referring to Hodgson in particular?

I'm not sure what a player's motive in wanting to avoid international duty might be - ask Stephen Ireland how it is to have no affiliation with one's national team - but I'm not sure what a witch-hunt will achieve for England here. Naming and shaming?... It sounds like the type of mid-summer campaign the Daily Mail would happily sponsor in the run-up to a new season. I hope Harry Redknapp does the decent thing and keeps his trap (and jeep window) shut on this one. Gerrard is just a nasty piece of work. Imagine the reaction of English fans at games up and down the country week in and week out towards the "named and shamed". I can't say I have much time for Gerrard at all. For a captain, he possesses such scant emotional maturity and commands very little sense of authority. In fact, his interviews of late have done little besides humour me; it's as if he's desperately trying to exude this wise, authoritative aura by saying things he thinks someone in his position should be saying, but he fails so miserably at genuinely convincing me he's ever been a leader. He's a cod. Thoroughly uninspiring.

If players aren't interested in the international game, leave them be. Their loss. Why bother wasting energy getting angry about them? It's a (relatively) free country and there's no duty upon them to show up against their will. Forget about them. Instead, focus on players who do want to represent their country and ensure the experience is an appealing one for those willing to give up their time.

A lot of players are also pressured out of international fixtures by disapproving club managers. It's fairly well known that Alex Ferguson loathed Roy Keane and Ryan Giggs competing in international friendlies.

First thing I thought of reading that...

He is often looked on as a great player. He is nothing of the kind. His performance on Wednesday was a disgrace, a monument to conceit adorned with vanity and self-indulgence, rendered all the more objectionable by the swagger of his gait.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Thankfully Ian Wright is on hand to make sure things don't go too far with this story: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bq2ZXn_CIAEfoEF.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

I think I'd have to agree with you that contact with the ball alone shouldn't be enough to cancel out the possibility of a foul having occurred. Do you know what the official line on it is or if refs have any further guidelines on the matter besides regulatory clarification as to what is meant by "careless"? I was having a look around the web for some thoughts and opinion on the actual significance of making contact with the ball but my search was largely fruitless.

It might be worth having an ask in the ask the referees thread on here (not sure where it is). I'm not aware of any official guidance on the rule other than the fact it's against the rules to trip an opponent and that winning a ball does not count as a trip. I've never seen it written or heard it said that any contact with the ball is sufficient to make it a clean tackle outside the rules of Subbuteo.

[osarusan]

Don't know if it's been mentioned already, but here are the tie-breaker criteria, taken from the FIFA handbook:

5. The ranking of each team in each group shall be determined as follows:

a) greatest number of points obtained in all group matches;
b) goal difference in all group matches;
c) greatest number of goals scored in all group matches.

If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above three criteria, their rankings shall be determined as follows:

d) greatest number of points obtained in the group matches between the teams concerned;
e) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the teams concerned;
f) greater number of goals scored in all group matches between the teams concerned;
g) drawing of lots by the FIFA Organising Committee

So, A, B, and C all make sense to me, and if they're all level, then we move on to D. That's fine too.

But how are E and F different from B and C respectively?

EDIT: Aha! E and F are only relevant if there are 3 teams all tied on criteria A-D.

[geysir]

I think I'd have to agree with you that contact with the ball alone shouldn't be enough to cancel out the possibility of a foul having occurred. Do you know what the official line on it is or if refs have any further guidelines on the matter besides regulatory clarification as to what is meant by "careless"? I was having a look around the web for some thoughts and opinion on the actual significance of making contact with the ball but my search was largely fruitless.

I'd disagree with Kenny, because the (almost invisible) phantom touch from Zabaleta meant the ball was going out of reach to the left, before the attacking player was clattered.
I'd hazard a guess that Richard Dunne has made more than a few of them and didn't concede a penalty. Contact with the ball was deemed sufficient.
I don't know what the official guidelines are on these sorts of tackles but I'd guess if after the defender's touch on the ball, it's still in play and up for grabs for a possible goal threat and the attacker has just been clattered, then it's likely a penalty.

[A N Mouse]

We've got 12 players. I think the claim of 18 was inaccurate. That figure was mentioned by James Richardson after someone had e-mailed it to him, so it hadn't been verified. Obviously, whoever'd e-mailed also got the figure of France-born players wrong as there are 25 rather than 16. I would imagine the New Statesman assertion of 14 Germany-born players is accurate. That means there'd be two more we're missing. Did you say there were two other Ghanaian squad members who you thought were born in Germany? Who were they? I can't seem to see any others besides Boateng.

I thought Mateo Kovačić of Croatia might have been another, but he was born in Linz, which is in Austria.

Edit: Julian Green of the USA grew up in Germany from the age of two, although he was born in Tampa, Florida. It seems New Statesman might have counted him in their tally of 14 as they did put the German figure at five rather than four in the article.

Sorry - I fupped up. Should have clarified this yesterday.

Can only imagine I read the ones either side of Boateng as Bochum and Berlin.

[BonnieShels]

Fierce quiet in here lads!

[DannyInvincible]

Fierce quiet in here lads!

[BonnieShels]

These final round games are dragging this world cup down. Brutal games both.

[Charlie Darwin]

This Italy game is so bad I'm considering watching England.

[BonnieShels]

This Italy game is so bad I'm considering watching England.

I've already made that decision.

[DannyInvincible]

I hope those last few days weren't the honeymoon period!

I don't know what the official guidelines are on these sorts of tackles but I'd guess if after the defender's touch on the ball, it's still in play and up for grabs for a possible goal threat and the attacker has just been clattered, then it's likely a penalty.

Should it matter whether or not there's a goal threat actually? A penalty is to be awarded simply for a foul inside the box; not necessarily for an illegal denial of a goal-threat. If Zabaleta had been on the outside left of Dejagah and a mirror-image version of the tackle had occurred with Zabaleta ever-so-slightly nudging the ball back in towards his goal, would you have deemed that a penalty then? I don't see why that should make a difference. Judgment is to be made irrespective of the position of the ball. Then again, if you'd be a referee taking the prospect of a goal-threat out of your consideration, how would you judge contact with the ball to be "enough" or "not enough"? Enough or not enough for what exactly, if not for the denial of a goal-threat? Maybe osarusan's position has merit. Or would the judgment be based on whether or not there was enough contact with the ball to simply dispossess the attacker?

Sorry - I fupped up. Should have clarified this yesterday.

Can only imagine I read the ones either side of Boateng as Bochum and Berlin.

Ha, to be fair, I thought Berekum and Seclin sounded vaguely Germanic myself. I'll admit I did check out both of them on Wiki.

[DannyInvincible]

Italy facing the dump.

[DannyInvincible]

I've been watching the Costa Rica-England game - I don't know why - but the commentators are saying they've heard word that Suarez bit Giorgio Chiellini! I've promptly switched over. Have I missed much?

[pineapple stu]

And Suarez with a little nibble of Chiellini. Sure why not.

[Razors left peg]

Suarez is absolutely mentally ill. I wonder who in the english media he will try to blame for that bite

[BonnieShels]

Thankfully Ian Wright is on hand to make sure things don't go too far with this story: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bq2ZXn_CIAEfoEF.jpg

mother of Jesus.

My opinion on him being awful wasn't strong enough. Moron.

Poor Jack Grealish is gonna get it.

[Charlie Darwin]

His World Cup has to be over.

[DannyInvincible]

His World Cup has to be over.

Well, not only did the poor lad get a bad bite, his team did get knocked out of the competition. That Suarez fella though... What will happen to him?

Suarez is absolutely mentally ill. I wonder who in the english media he will try to blame for that bite

Ha, as if "absolutely mental" wasn't mental enough. Just saw it. Lunacy. Well, the photo above says it all. Am I correct in thinking Saurez can be retrospectively punished if the ref missed it during the game and fails to document it in his match report?