Under-21 Squad

[Eirambler]

Definitely a step down from previous squads, but not unexpected. We have had exceptional depth at Under 21 for the last five years, it's almost a crime that Crawford has failed to qualify us for a finals (and yet is still there).

This is the first group that has come through after Brexit changed the rules on going to Britain, so potentially that is having an impact on the quality we're bringing through. This is largely a squad of non-Irish born players and Irish born players who have had to delay their exits to the UK but are now over there trying to play catch up.

[elatedscum]

Seriously, what the **** are we doing calling Mason Melia up for these friendlies instead of the 19s elite phase where he’s our best player. Shooting ourselves in the foot.

I’d agree it’s a big step down, but I also think it always looks a bit that way at the very start of a campaign and it tends not to be as bad as it looks…

[Razors left peg]

Seriously, what the **** are we doing calling Mason Melia up for these friendlies instead of the 19s elite phase where he’s our best player. Shooting ourselves in the foot.

I’d agree it’s a big step down, but I also think it always looks a bit that way at the very start of a campaign and it tends not to be as bad as it looks…

Maybe because the better player Noonan will start ahead of him in the 19s

[elatedscum]

Maybe because the better player Noonan will start ahead of him in the 19s

That’s the knock on effect, now the 17s lose Noonan who’s there best player for their elite stage

[elatedscum]

You want O’Mahony starting for the 21s, Melia for the 19s and Noonan for the 17s. Jim strikes again

[Razors left peg]

I think lads should be promoted to higher levels if they are good enough. The underage squads are all about development for the seniors and if a player is ready for step up he shouldn't be held back.

[elatedscum]

I think lads should be promoted to high levels if they are good enough. The underage squads are all about development for the seniors and if a player is ready for step up he shouldn't be held back.

I really disagree - each situation is individual. It’s a single camp. Germany u19 will be a better team than Scotland u21s, so you’ll be playing better opposition - you’re leading the team to a certain degree, which is also something important for Mason.

I also think the benefit of going to a summer tournament far outweighs any difference there might be. Then you look at game time, Mason would be starting every game for the 19s and he really shouldn’t be for the 21s.

Then your knock on effect is that for Noonan to get the games, he stays with the 17s, where they really need him.

[Razors left peg]

The U21s are building towards their next campaign. I think it's fair to pick the strongest squad available and the beauty of it is that it allows another young lad to step up and prove his worth. None of these lads are the finished article and so it's about developing them, physically too. The German u19s might be better technically but the u21s is a big step up in physicality. I also believe lads should be in seniors when they are ready and it's irrelevant what the underage squad has going on at same time. All underage football is about preparing lads for the seniors

[Eirambler]

The 19s are playing qualifiers, the 21s are playing friendlies. So the 19s should get first pick this time around. Would be different if they were both playing qualifiers.

[Razors left peg]

I understand I'm probably in the minority with my opinion, but I firmly believe good young players should be pushed on to higher levels as quickly as possible. The under 19s Euros are every year, you can't be constantly worrying about them at the cost of players stepping up

[tetsujin1979]

Melia wasn't included in the U19 squad for the first qualifying round due to injury, wonder if that plays into his inclusion in the U21s?

[SkStu]

I understand I'm probably in the minority with my opinion, but I firmly believe good young players should be pushed on to higher levels as quickly as possible. The under 19s Euros are every year, you can't be constantly worrying about them at the cost of players stepping up

FWIW, I agree with you. All underage teams are in service of the MNT and bringing talent up and through. If players are good enough to play up a level, then they should play up the level. Would we want to stop (bad example incoming) Ferguson playing up to the seniors to maximize the chance that U21s would qualify or U19s when he was first called up? If not, why would it be any different for other underage levels? The principle is admirable but it is not practical.

[Eirambler]

Some more concerning stuff here from Crawford on Zefi, turning up lacking fitness for international camp, Crawford trying to "help him in other areas". Reading between the lines (and taking account of previous rumours I've heard) it sounds like he doesn't have the right mentality for professional football at all.

https://archive.ph/pgKzY

[Eirambler]

Interesting also that Sam Curtis was left out. There might be an element of trying others out in friendlies, but if he saw him as central to his plans I doubt he'd be leaving him out all the same.

[elatedscum]

Interesting also that Sam Curtis was left out. There might be an element of trying others out in friendlies, but if he saw him as central to his plans I doubt he'd be leaving him out all the same.

Jim picked him ahead of Ebosele and Abankwah as a 17 year old, and now 2 years later, he’s being left out of the squad. Confusing…

Both indicative of the mistakes Sam Curtis made in his career, club choices etc. and of Crawford’s lack of judgement both now and throughout the previous campaign

[ifk101]

Definitely a step down from previous squads, but not unexpected. We have had exceptional depth at Under 21 for the last five years, it's almost a crime that Crawford has failed to qualify us for a finals (and yet is still there).

This is the first group that has come through after Brexit changed the rules on going to Britain, so potentially that is having an impact on the quality we're bringing through. This is largely a squad of non-Irish born players and Irish born players who have had to delay their exits to the UK but are now over there trying to play catch up.

You are insistence on getting the Brexit is bad for us narrative in. Questionable how strong the last U21 group was/ is. For example, the star player of the last U21 campaign was Andy Moran who you don’t rate

Interestingly I don't rate Moran at all at present, while he might eventually come good I think he's powderpuff and a waste of a squad place at this point in time.

Other standout players in that group are still underage - it is quite arguable Abankwah was the best performer of that campaign and he is still underage for the next U21 campaign. Of the matchday squad that played the 1-1 away game against Italy - Moran, Abankwah, Vata (still U21 eligible) and Armstrong are on the senior squad radar. It’s possible a couple of more will get there in time but that’s a distance in the future and probably a distance in the future before the four aforementioned names can be impactful senior players.

BTW Noel King’s last U21 squad, a pre-Brexit squad, was particularly weak in terms of producing senior players, only Cullen has become a fixture in the senior squad. King’s squad before that gave us Browne and O’Dowda who are currently squad players at best. So there is no conclusive evidence either way to confirm Brexit is bad/ or good for us. Maybe in a couple of decades the answer will be clearer.

[2 Year Contract]

Jim picked him ahead of Ebosele and Abankwah as a 17 year old, and now 2 years later, he’s being left out of the squad. Confusing…

Both indicative of the mistakes Sam Curtis made in his career, club choices etc. and of Crawford’s lack of judgement both now and throughout the previous campaign

I get that his progress since moving to the UK isn’t as fast as many expected, but Curtis is arguably consistently playing games at as high if not a higher level than nearly all of the defenders in the 21s squad. Celtic and Rangers aside, the Scottish Premiership is probably roughly English league one standard, while in the squad we’ve Grehan playing LOI, Murphy playing regular league one, O'Brien and Okagbue playing regular league two, Otegbayo in the Championship but with only 1 start at that level, while Barratt and McManus are playing underage/reserve football

[Eirambler]

You are insistence on getting the Brexit is bad for us narrative in. Questionable how strong the last U21 group was/ is. For example, the star player of the last U21 campaign was Andy Moran who you don’t rate Other standout players in that group are still underage - it is quite arguable Abankwah was the best performer of that campaign and he is still underage for the next U21 campaign. Of the matchday squad that played the 1-1 away game against Italy - Moran, Abankwah, Vata (still U21 eligible) and Armstrong are on the senior squad radar. It’s possible a couple of more will get there in time but that’s a distance in the future and probably a distance in the future before the four aforementioned names can be impactful senior players.

BTW Noel King’s last U21 squad, a pre-Brexit squad, was particularly weak in terms of producing senior players, only Cullen has become a fixture in the senior squad. King’s squad before that gave us Browne and O’Dowda who are currently squad players at best. So there is no conclusive evidence either way to confirm Brexit is bad/ or good for us. Maybe in a couple of decades the answer will be clearer.

All of the following players were Under 21 eligible in the last campaign:

Aidomo Emakhu
Andrew Moran
John Patrick
Sean Roughan
Cian Hayes
Sinclair Armstrong
Bosun Lawal
Josh Keeley
Baba Adeeko
A. Garcia McNulty
Ollie O'Neill
Tom Cannon
Joe Hodge
Festy Ebosele
Andrew Omobamidele
Gavin Bazunu
Troy Parrott

Plus Evan Ferguson who is still Under 21 eligible but snuck out the door at 16 around the time the Brexit rules kicked in. The 2002/2003 group is miles stronger than the 2004/2005 one.

Does that definitively prove that the Brexit rules that did not impact the 2002/2003s, but have impacted the 2004/2005s are the main reason for that - no it doesn't. But it's likely to be a factor and is certainly worthy of note.

I would suggest that your approach of trying to shut down the mere consideration of it by saying that it can't be determined until decades into the future suggests that it raises a valid concern that you'd rather wasn't discussed for whatever reason!

As for your comment of there being no conclusive evidence as to whether it's bad or good for us, well there may not yet be conclusive evidence that it's bad (albeit a picture appears to be emerging), but anyone inside Irish football and youth development that knows the details of the facilities, coaching and contact hours available to developing players in the country will tell you outright that it's definitely not good.

[ifk101]

All of the following players were Under 21 eligible in the last campaign:

Aidomo Emakhu
Andrew Moran
John Patrick
Sean Roughan
Cian Hayes
Sinclair Armstrong
Bosun Lawal
Josh Keeley
Baba Adeeko
A. Garcia McNulty
Ollie O'Neill
Tom Cannon
Joe Hodge
Festy Ebosele
Andrew Omobamidele
Gavin Bazunu
Troy Parrott

Plus Evan Ferguson who is still Under 21 eligible but snuck out the door at 16 around the time the Brexit rules kicked in. The 2002/2003 group is miles stronger than the 2004/2005 one.

Does that definitively prove that the Brexit rules that did not impact the 2002/2003s, but have impacted the 2004/2005s are the main reason for that - no it doesn't. But it's likely to be a factor and is certainly worthy of note.

I would suggest that your approach of trying to shut down the mere consideration of it by saying that it can't be determined until decades into the future suggests that it raises a valid concern that you'd rather wasn't discussed for whatever reason!

As for your comment of there being no conclusive evidence as to whether it's bad or good for us, well there may not yet be conclusive evidence that it's bad (albeit a picture appears to be emerging), but anyone inside Irish football and youth development that knows the details of the facilities, coaching and contact hours available to developing players in the country will tell you outright that it's definitely not good.

Consider the U21 teams fielded in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 (which equates to two qualification campaigns). Only ten players from those years have played a senior international game to date. Of those ten, only three players have 30+ senior caps: Browne, Cullen, O’Dowda. 7 of the 10 are Irish born (or grew up in Ireland (Ronan Curtis)). Of those 7, two joined UK clubs before the age of 18 (Jack Byrne and Darragh Lenihan). The most successful of those seven players in terms of senior caps; Browne (37 caps), Maguire (11 caps), Manning (13 caps), McGrath (13 caps) all left for the UK aged 18 or over – mention this as Brexit blocks moves before 18.

While far from conclusive, this four year sample is not supportive of sending our kids to the UK as a good idea – (albeit a picture appears to be emerging). If I believe a four year sample is not conclusive, you can understand why I forward the need for decade or more to give a more definite answer. We really want hard facts documenting the number of kids that went to UK clubs prior to Brexit, how many progressed to professional football/ senior international and comparing that with post Brexit figures. Data taken over a decade or more removes abnormalities, certain years will have better/ weaker groups of players than others. However, and maybe purely coincidental, but the national team's gradual decline over the past 25-30 years does coincide with UK clubs becoming increasingly global in scope in player sourcing.

And let’s not forget, if a kid wants to leave Ireland before 18, there is a whole continent open to them.

[Eirambler]

We know that very few talents emerged from the 1993 to 1997 year groups, that's why we have so few Irish born players older than 26 in our squads now. But those years were the big anomalies dating back to players born as far back as the 1970s. That should be an anomaly that we don't see again for years to come. That's you're using that group to justify the weakness of the current group is a concern, we shouldn't be judging against the worst years in living memory. If that's what we're resorting to assessing this group against them it's even more likely there's a Brexit related issue at play here.

Of course there's a European option too, but it's understandable that the language and cultural differences are a deterrent to parents sending their kids into that environment. Unfortunately there's a real chance that within a few years it will be seen as the only viable option, particularly if a few more Sam Curtis type cases occur. No doubt the development of the likes of Melia and Noonan among others will be being viewed very closely.