Group D - opponent watch!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Currently we will do well to come third in this group. Anyone who thinks differently is delusional.

It's going to take a massive change in personnel and playing style to do any better. It could happen I suppose.
Though Alba/Polska could do worse too also...that's my main hope.

[Stuttgart88]

I didn't notice Keane laughing during our anthem. The camera rolled across all the squad from left to right, some singing, some not, and finished with Keane on the end of the line singing. That's what I saw.

Keane played rubbish but equally was starved of anything resembling service, a common theme. Long would have offered something different but a proper 9 like Doyle would probably have been the most effective option given the way we played.

O'Neill was very tetchy with TOD alright but I think he's entitled to get his retaliation in first given TOD's track record. Dunphy was OTT in the studio. You'd swear he thought there were attempts to muzzle free press or something. RTE have been down on management since I started watching RTE football in the late 70s.

We played poorly and won was the studio assessment. We played well in parts but with much room for improvement was O'Neill's assessment. Both are fair. O'Neill still deserves the benefit of the doubt but the studio weren't giving it to him, other than agreeing that the friendlies were meaningless.

Look, I don't have full faith that O'Neill will do the right things but making dumb substitutions at 3-1 down to Portugal isn't a fair assessment of how he reads games. King got slated for being happy with being 2-0 down. Which is it to be?

I think anyone in denial about the threat that Scotland offered to Germany is looking through green tinted glasses and smoking wacky backy. Goals change games and as long as you're only one down you always have a chance. They took theirs and came close on other occasions. Didn't we hit the bar at 1-0 in Cologne? Cologne is as much as a benchmark than Dublin and we played respectably out there. I'm not sure it's fair to say Scotland brilliant, Ireland muck on the basis of two unrelated games. Sure if Germany away was the standard, Stan is probably one of our best managers ever

Scotland will be tough, no doubt, but most of us had twigged that ages ago anyway. The Scotland v Ireland games ought to be cracking games, really tense high tempo derby affairs. I can't wait.

[tricky_colour]

The first assist was amazing!!

[paul_oshea]

I've got a mate getting married the Saturday in sligo/mayo. I've worked out how to get over but it's tricky especially from London. how selfish and awkward of him not thinking about me and the ireland game.he knows well I go to the away games.

I think we will play a lot different to how we normally play, against Scotland and it probably will make it a fast paced game.

[Stuttgart88]

It'll be like an English league game I reckon.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Predict a draw v.them away. But we'll lose at home...

[DannyInvincible]

We were losing 0-6 to Germany in Dublin. How can you be so blase about Scotland's performance in Dortmund? In the game I was watching Scotland were outplaying Germany in parts and had them on the ropes at times. Yeah Germany could have had one or two more (anything else is exaggerating). They could have netted a lot more in Dublin against us too.

Drawing 1-1 with the World champions at a pivotal point of the game - 70 minutes - is a bloody fantastic achievement in itself when we utterly collapsed and gave up after half-time.

I think you're overplaying the Scottish performance because it reinforces your agenda of almost-total negativity when it comes to us. Germany had 70 per cent of possession to Scotland's 30 per cent, 26 shots (with 9 on target) to Scotland's 10 (with 3 on target) and 12 corners to Scotland's 1. The figures are telling. Germany were rusty, possibly suffering from a World Cup hangover, but they were nevertheless overwhelmingly dominant. It was a gutsy effort by Scotland and I admired them for it, but where's the achievement exactly? If it was us who'd been celebrating Ireland getting back even with Germany for three or four minutes, you'd be quoting Roy Keane and condemning the celebrants for their minnowism and lack of ambition.

Scotland are riding a wave at the minute. Their result on Sunday was a lot better than we did against the same opposition recently - that's true - and Stutts is correct in highlighting that, although Scotland lost on Sunday night, if they play that way against the other teams in this group, they'll be a lot more dangerous (and able to pick up points) than we'll be, unless we make changes, but it remains to be seen if they will actually pick up the potential banana-skin points they frequently drop. When we lost 1-6 to Germany, we'd lost the psychological battle before the game even kicked off. We were totally lacking any spirit or motivation. It was as if Trap's conservatism and defeatism had sucked all impetus out of us. Confidence will be higher when we play Germany in October with six points in the bag. The players won't be allowed to go into the game assuming their inferiority if Roy has anything to do with it.

Also, what is Keane doing to earn his money? The only thing I noticed about him in Georgia was laughing and joking during our anthem.

Robbie was isolated; not much else he could have done. He looked hungry when he came on against Oman and got on the ball.

And he wasn't laughing and joking during our anthem. He had a laugh with John O'Shea before it commenced because O'Shea was looking up and around the stadium for the tricolour so he'd know which direction to face. He couldn't spot one so, evidently worried that they'd all look like a line of confused fools, he asked Robbie for a bit of advice on what they should do. Robbie reassured him and promptly nodded down towards the massive tricolour on the pitch right in front of them that had somehow been eluding poor John all along. It was a funny moment and they had a laugh about it before respectfully standing to attention once the anthem started. No big deal.

And the point about Scotland still lost is so naive, they lost after a very good performance and though they didnt get the result against Germany if they play like that against the other top teams in the group they will "out-result" the other teams in the group.

Fair point. Although I'd made mine in response to Stutts highlighting that we play like cute hoors, keeping things tight and trying to nick a winner against teams like Germany, instead of giving it a proper go. Scotland gave it a go but still lost. Both approaches have their advantages and drawbacks when playing against top-tier opposition, but there's no beyond-doubt certainty that one approach is better than the other. The fact that numerous managers still employ both approaches to varying degrees of success is evidence of this. The conservative approach has also worked for us at times, most notably when we held Russia to a draw in Moscow. I wasn't necessarily predicting the future course our present group will take by pointing out that Scotland still lost by playing a positive, forceful game against Germany.

[paul_oshea]

Danny I'm pretty sure he meant roy keane.

[ArdeeBhoy]

One slight problem, just can't see the current group getting much from any approach v.Germany. 'Damage-limitation' is our best hope.

Which is why it doesn't really matter who plays v.Gib. & Germany.
Certainly any 'fringe' players. Give them the carrot of a debut v. Gib. and minutes v.Germany...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I think you're overplaying the Scottish performance because it reinforces your agenda of almost-total negativity when it comes to us. Germany had 70 per cent of possession to Scotland's 30 per cent, 26 shots (with 9 on target) to Scotland's 10 (with 3 on target) and 12 corners to Scotland's 1. The figures are telling. Germany were rusty, possibly suffering from a World Cup hangover, but they were nevertheless overwhelmingly dominant. It was a gutsy effort by Scotland and I admired them for it, but where's the achievement exactly? If it was us who'd been celebrating Ireland getting back even with Germany for three or four minutes, you'd be quoting Roy Keane and condemning the celebrants for their minnowism and lack of ambition.

Scotland are riding a wave at the minute. Their result on Sunday was a lot better than we did against the same opposition recently - that's true - and Stutts is correct in highlighting that, although Scotland lost on Sunday night, if they play that way against the other teams in this group, they'll be a lot more dangerous (and able to pick up points) than we'll be, unless we make changes, but it remains to be seen if they will actually pick up the potential banana-skin points they frequently drop. When we lost 1-6 to Germany, we'd lost the psychological battle before the game even kicked off. We were totally lacking any spirit or motivation. It was as if Trap's conservatism and defeatism had sucked all impetus out of us. Confidence will be higher when we play Germany in October with six points in the bag. The players won't be allowed to go into the game assuming their inferiority if Roy has anything to do with it.



Robbie was isolated; not much else he could have done. He looked hungry when he came on against Oman and got on the ball.

And he wasn't laughing and joking during our anthem. He had a laugh with John O'Shea before it commenced because O'Shea was looking up and around the stadium for the tricolour so he'd know which direction to face. He couldn't spot one so, evidently worried that they'd all look like a line of confused fools, he asked Robbie for a bit of advice on what they should do. Robbie reassured him and promptly nodded down towards the massive tricolour on the pitch right in front of them that had somehow been eluding poor John all along. It was a funny moment and they had a laugh about it before respectfully standing to attention once the anthem started. No big deal.



Fair point. Although I'd made mine in response to Stutts highlighting that we play like cute hoors, keeping things tight and trying to nick a winner against teams like Germany, instead of giving it a proper go. Scotland gave it a go but still lost. Both approaches have their advantages and drawbacks when playing against top-tier opposition, but there's no beyond-doubt certainty that one approach is better than the other. The fact that numerous managers still employ both approaches to varying degrees of success is evidence of this. The conservative approach has also worked for us at times, most notably when we held Russia to a draw in Moscow. I wasn't necessarily predicting the future course our present group will take by pointing out that Scotland still lost by playing a positive, forceful game against Germany.

First of all I was not referring to Robbie Keane. I was referring to Roy Keane. Although since you mention it, yes, Robbie Keane was predictably a passenger for the entire game but that's par for the course these days. Another manager not brave enough to accommodate Wes Hoolahan and Shane Long, another 90th minute winner to paper over the cracks.

The World Cup winners defeated Scotland 2-1 in Dortmund. The Scots were in the match over the entire 90 minutes. The Germans spanked us 6-1 in Dublin and walked over us in what was effectively a no pressure friendly for us in Cologne.

You're right. The figures are telling. Where is the achievement? The achievement is being competitive with - not getting spanked by - teams like France, Spain and Germany. Something I've being on about when the draw for this Qualifying group was made. Something that could be crucial in that, while Germany are likely to take first place, they, Scotland and Poland are all more capable of taking points off each other than we are. Granted, we are more likely to grind out wins against Georgia than Scotland are.

And the statistics. So you've decided they're actually of importance to you now? Germany played through us and carved open our defence with a lot more regularity than they did Scotland. They had as many genuine goalscoring chances against us in Dublin and Cologne than Dortmund several days ago - and they dropped back into second gear after about 60 minutes of the Dublin game (whereas Scotland looked good value for a point during the last third of their game).

I don't know how you think it reflects better on us that Germany scored almost half of their chances against us yet could only score 2 out of 26 against Scotland? Not to even mention the many German half chances and the decent chances that Scotland themselves had.

And how come Germany suffered a World Cup hangover against Scotland but didn't suffer a Euros hangover against us?

Listen. The Scotland games are 50-50. Either team could win but a spade is a spade, they are a better team in every way when they play teams like Germany.

McGeady's two goals don't change the fact that if we play like we did against Georgia we are going to get a hiding against Germany - unless MON makes some big decisions I don't think he is capable or brave enough to make.

[Charlie Darwin]

McGeady's two goals don't change the fact that if we play like we did against Georgia we are going to get a hiding against Germany - unless MON makes some big decisions I don't think he is capable or brave enough to make.

But that's not true. If we play like that against Germany, we might get a hiding or we might get lucky like the Scots and hold out long enough to maybe nick a goal in the last minute.

I don't see how playing Long and Hoolahan is a "brave" decision either. Playing a striker who spends more time out by the corner flag than anywhere near the goal would be the conservative option by most standards. We had four men around the box for both of our goals on Sunday, which is hardly playing it safe. Playing an out-and-out finisher like Keane is far from conservative.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, make TWOK right on this one, in the main.

The only variable is the hope we can play better (v.better opposition). That said, the Germans definitely can!

[Charlie Darwin]

The Germans will be better when we face them, of course. If we have the right players on the pitch though, we can frustrate them and ride our luck, like Scotland did, and hope Muller misses a few open goals again.

[DannyInvincible]

TOWK; you're disagreeing or arguing with a lot of "points" I haven't actually made. I've not said it reflects better on us. Our performance against Germany was grim; Scotland's performance was gutsy and spirited, but they were still beaten. I'm just urging for some fair level-headedness and arguing against getting carried away with negativity after one game each. We dominated our game and deservedly won; Scotland lost theirs and did so deservedly, as expected. Things went right to plan in terms of the results, so we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves. When have we had it any better than slogging it out and just about scraping away victories in eastern Europe (if we're fortunate)? There's no reason to assume just yet that Scotland will run away with the mini-league for second place, leaving us in their wake. Of course, I acknowledge that we must improve. Anyone can see that the game we played against Georgia won't pay off time and time again.

When have I ever dismissed stats as having a role to play in the analysis of a game's competitiveness?

When we lost to Germany 1-6, they were already three games into the group. They'd started off with a home win over the Faroe Islands and then dispensed of Austria away. They hadn't won the Euros either. The hangover effect is often said to impact negatively upon teams coming back down to reality after a major high. I've not said such a phenomenon definitely exists, but Germany were a bit rusty in front of goal against Scotland in comparison to their ruthlessness in Brazil.

[paul_oshea]

How come no one else copped on he meant Roy Keane? thats why ye need to listen to me about Grealish I interpret it the way it was meant :P

[paul_oshea]

One thing I learnt from the world cup and from our hidings is that we are capable of matching teams that are capable of matching better teams that we are not capable of matching

Thats why I think we will do ok against Scotland and Poland but would imagine Scotland would do better against Germany and Poland for example. That gives me some hope at least.

But why is this? I put it down mainly to how we are setup, and how we play but mostly how shakey we are defensively. We seem incapable of doing the basic things right and the chances we give away are a lot more clear cut and nervy than other teams of our "level" - granted scotland failed to clear on 3 occassions for Germanys second goal.

We dominated our game and deservedly won;

Did we though? Sammy was on saying after that a draw would have been a fair result, and I would have to say I agree. We had 1 shot on goal in the 2nd half, we had lots of possession but did nothing with it. Having lots of possession is never a reason to deservedly win a game.

[Stuttgart88]

The amount of self loathing is staggering. We played poorly and snuck a win. Great, as long as O'Neill recognises there's room for improvement. He has said he does so let's see what happens.

Bosnia, a technically accomplished team we all admired in the WC, lost at home to Cyprus. What does that mean? Not much in the overall scheme of things.

I have been watching football long enough to know that A beating B comfortably and B beating C does not mean A then beats C comfortably. Do you think the whole of Chile is slating their manager for losing 1-0 to Brazil when Brazil went on to lose 7-1 shortly after? I doubt it. Does it show that when Germany get more than a goal in front they are capable of putting teams to the sword like they did with us? Yes. Does it prove that when Germany go in front they're then infallible? No, says Ghana and maybe also Scotland.

I'd prefer we had a bit of the Scots' swagger right now but we don't. I'm not beating myself up over it though. Rome wasnt built in a day.

I'm not sure what the telly showing MON in consultation with Walford rather than Keane means. One might deduce that Walford runs the show and that Keane is an overpaid passenger who puts the cones out. Another might deduce that Keane's input into training and on match day and in the dressing room is valuable and appreciated by the players.

Who knows?

I'd tend to agree with AB that in all likelihood even 3rd is a big ask. This is a tough group. But I think we all know this group is capable of better. Scotland and Poland would be comparable enough to Sweden and Austria. All 4 games against those two were tight and decided at the margins. We need to make those margins be in our favour this time.

[DeLorean]

Bar TOWK's usual freak out and AB's relentless sense of realism, dare not to dream if you will, I really don't see much evidence of this self loathing. There was plenty to be disappointed with on Sunday, definitely more to be worried and despondent about than enthusiastic, when you exclude the utterly satisfactory result. We were looking for signs of a change of approach and there was very little. We were extremely poor and I don't think we deserved any more than the draw we looked likely to get. The result was brilliant but the performance of management was anything but. If we had drawn or lost, with a stronger emphasis on retaining and using the ball in a constructive way, then I'm sure most reasonable-minded people would have accepted that Rome is definitely not built in a day, or even ten months! Would I have preferred that?.... of course not. The most important thing will always be the result and we got that.

I don't think results from around Europe have any relevance either. Nobody is disputing the fact that we got a good result in a difficult match or that international football should be a walk in the park. I guess we were just hoping for more obvious evidence of a change in philosophy. Like you say, hopefully that will come in time but, for now, we can only go on what we have seen... as a certain Mr. Giles might say.

[paul_oshea]

It's not self loathing, its that stutts didnt predict it and therefore usual back-slapping and thanking of eachtothers posts didnt happen.

Its only self-loating when its me and TOWK disagreeing with how everyone else reads/sees it.

I agree with that post pretty much in the entirety.

[paul_oshea]

The result to me had everything about kazakh away under Traps last campaign just with more possession, even a hint of the Armenia one, and I don't think that campaign had any of the difficulty attached that this one has. Slovakia aren't as good as Scotland and Poland are far more consistent than Armenia, who are good for a shock result now and then. And Russia are nowhere near Germany. Macedonia are about similar to Georgia but got tanked by them at home the other night whereas Georgia didnt a few years ago. No real need to bring that again I suppose.