What now for Shels -how to go forward?

[Shelsman]

How can Shels improve? Here's what I think.........

1) Find out Lille's training methods and consider applying them to Shels

2) As Roddy Collins said last night, Shels have players to win the league here but not to compete at a high level in Europe, just like Celtic.
This means they have to get in players from outside the league better than any of the eL players available here. They have already started to do this with Alan Moore, Joseph Ndo and hopefully Juan Sara.

3) It was obvious enough what players could handle the standard last night. Here are my ratings and suggestions:

Steve Williams -has always been excellent.

Owen Heary, Dave Rogers, Jamie Harris -looked fine throughout.

David Crawley -was OK for this game but was brutal in the first leg, he needs competition for his place ( the best left back in the eL I can think of is Cork City's Danny Murphy, otherwise they will need to look abroad ).

Jim Crawford -only a defensive midfielder and needs to offer more than that, sell him and bring in Kevin Hunt.

Stuart Byrne -similar to Crawford except might be a better standard, sell him too if they can get a better central midfielder.

Wes Hoolahan -could be a great player if he didn't waste the ball so much, he beats his man, once, twice, has room for the cross but then tries to beat him again and loses the ball. Very frustrating to watch from that point of view, like Robbie Keane when he was younger he needs to learn that there is a time for the simple ball.

Alan Moore -was indifferent last night and can be a bit petty, but his 3 goals in Europe were a great boost.

Ollie Cahill -great pace and good dribbler but not brilliant and crossing and shooting. All the Lille players had better pace than him last night. Look for a replacement and use Ollie as cover. No better left winger in the eL I can think about so would have to look abroad or maybe use Alan Moore there. Probably better off carrying Wes Hoolahan on the wing too.

Jason Byrne, Glen Fitzpatrick, Ger McCarthy, Juan Sara -keep them all.

Who to bring in from the eL ?

Players: Kevin Hunt, Bobby Ryan, Danny Murphy.

Manager: Pat Dolan might well be worth getting in the long run -just look what he did with Cork considering the players and budget he's had there, just think of what he could do with Shels. Anyway, let's wait and see how Fenlon does for the rest of this year AND next year.

[observer]

Be realistic. You can train them any way you want but if they are not good enough they will never be able to compete at the higher levels. I am not knocking Shels, fair play to them they are the best team in the League at present and gave Europe their best shot.
That said, be honest, how many of the Shels side would or could hold down a place in the English First Division? Maybe one! Yet people talk about competing with superior teams in Europe. The standard in the L of I has risen in recent years mainly because English clubs let so many players go who have returned to play for clubs here. More Irish players will follow as they are also let go but we will never get young talented players from other countries (old has beens yes ala DCFC).
We are a small Island on the periphery of European football and will remain so. When you see two or more Ireland based players on the national team then you will know we have and are advancing. Then you can aim your sights higher in relation to European progress.

[Slash/ED]

How can Shels improve? Here's what I think.........

1) Find out Lille's training methods and consider applying them to Shels

2) As Roddy Collins said last night, Shels have players to win the league here but not to compete at a high level in Europe, just like Celtic.
This means they have to get in players from outside the league better than any of the eL players available here. They have already started to do this with Alan Moore, Joseph Ndo and hopefully Juan Sara.

I agree with that, training facilities need to be improved, the Lille played looked just a little bit fitter last night and there's no reason whatsoever that that should be the case, and point two too. Rating the players, I'd say

Steve Williams - 'super keeper', needs no justification to say he must stay.

Owen Heary, Dave Rogers, Jamie Harris - all good, and Kevin Doherty too. Harris has lapses in concentration which is my only worry about them really, Owen Heary is simply outstanding.

David Crawley - I just don't rate him, despite some good performances in Europe this year. Simon Webb is out of contract at the end of the season I believe and I'd love to see him at Shels, or play Rogers there as we have before with Doherty in central defence.

Jim Crawford - Does a good job for us but I don't think he'll hold down a regular place now, but is always worth keeping as cover at the very least.

Stuart Byrne - Offers more going forward than you give him credit for, he's a good scorer from mid field and has a nice habbit of scoring crucial goals (Away to Bohs, away to Cork) his passing is good too, he's been superb for us this season, absolutley superb..

Wes Hoolahan - If his decision making improved he'd be the best player in the league. Can be a match winner, and was against Rovers the other night, but room for improvement.

Alan Moore - Suits the 4-5-1 brilliantly, making the over laping runs when the striker holds the ball up giving us options and scoring goals.

Ollie Cahill - Was poor against Lille yes, but outstanding against Deportivo and Split. Wouldn't be looking to replace him at all.

Jason Byrne, Glen Fitzpatrick, Ger McCarthy, Juan Sara - Don't rate McCarthy, but he's decent cover I suppose. First two are superb and Sara has the credentials to be as good.

Who to bring in from the eL ?

Players: Kevin Hunt and Simon Webb. Don't rate Ryan, headless chicken with no end ball what so ever. Like a really bad version of Hoolahan.

Manager: No problems there, I know you don't agree, but imo we've the best in the league.

We are a small Island on the periphery of European football and will remain so

How in the name of jaysus can you say never? You could write the same thing you just wrote there about the Irish side pre 1988, or Rosenborg before they started competing in europe. Luckily, some people involved with Irish football have a bit more ambition than that, it showed this year and will hopefully show even more in the future.

[thejollyrodger]

We are a small Island on the periphery of European football and will remain so

Oh please, talk about pathetic,

where are the white flags

[Fair_play_boy]

We are a small Island on the periphery of European football and will remain so . . .

First of all, as a lover of soccer it gave me a huge feeling of pride to see the performances of Shels and Cork City this year. Not just that both clubs went so far in the respective competitions, but because of the manner of it. In particular, the come-back from 2-nil down to 2-2 against Lille in Dublin.
Now, to give Observer some credit, he does have a point, even if he could do with an editor to phrase it more acceptably.
1. The vast majority of paying attendances in Ireland goes into the GAA. The All Ireland Finals alone took in about €8 Million.
2. Of the money spent by Irish people attending soccer matches, a large slice is spent getting to Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge etc. On top of that, God knows how much is spent on Sky Sports.
3. The domestic soccer league is a really poor relation in the light of this. There is nothing to suggest that this underlying trend will change. If anything, with the clever marketing practices of the GAA, and in recent years by the IRFU, Irish soccer clubs will have a fight on their hands if the advertising income, sponsorship and gate receipts are to be maintained.
So, what is a club like Shels (or any other EL side) to do when contemplating the medium to long term future?
In my opinion, talk of buying in expensive talented players from overseas is predicated on the assumption that this commitment to high wages is sustainable. It is not. The position of Irish soccer is too weak to sustain a high cost ase. Look at what happened to Hadjuk Split after Shels beat them. They gambled on having a good run in Europe. The club reportedly declared bankruptcy a few days after losing to Shels, as they had budgeted on their projected earnings. The same could happen to Shels, IMO. OK, it is fine now to look at a pot of cash and say you can do really well by buying in the talent. But if you burn that money so easily, and do not, for some reason, progress in European competition next year or ANY year, where are you?
I think that Pat Dolan has the right approach, even if he is a bit bombastic the way he trumpets the value of his long term strategy. He believes in developing young squads in the knowledge that a pearl will emerge from a certain percentage of oysters. Denis Behan is probably a good example of that. Tonight he destroyed the Rovers defence, and played with U-21 international players Kevin Doyle and Liam Kearney as though he had worn the Ireland Jersey for years.
His efforts to develop the game here organically makes it more attractive for the Irish government to consider the development of centres of excellence here, to provide young Irish players with a viable alternative to getting the boat across to the UK.
If Shels and another couple of clubs had that vision, rather than looking to the short term gane of buying ready made stars, maybe Observer could be proved wrong!

[thejollyrodger]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I've been posting on another thread about this, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=190930

I think the idea of buying in players from england isnt going to work. Fair enough some might be a good buym but in the long term its not going to work, the league cant afford the wages etc.

Look at the likes or Arsenal and Aston Villa. Both have youth schemes that are really good and its where they get a lot of their players.

Each club should set up its own youth sqaud. Thats where the likes of Robbie Keane, Duff etc etc all came from. Some clubs are doing it and it will pay dividends in the long term. The government should at least provide funding for all E.L's youth training schemes. i.e provide grants for traning facilities, footballs, technical coaches etc. The money invovled would be quite small and would have massive dividends in Europe.

[ifk101]

shels need to expand into other sports - scandinavian style.
this would allow economies of scale in training facilities and ground development. For example say if shels had both a football and rugby team. The revenues generated from both teams could be invested in one ground, be it Tolka and on one set of training facilities. Then on top of this you have higher brand awareness, higher media coverage, higher private investment, ...... etc.

I think this is what Pats had in intentions with the St. Francis merger a few years back. But they went about it the wrong way. What Pats were doing was what I'd call "horizontal integration" and thats a no-no as theres too much resistance (fans, competitive rivalries etc) and bad will. "Vertical integration" - (expansion into other sports) achieves the same goals as horizontal but avoids all the crap.

[higgins]

Dave rodgers is good ???
where are you taking that from...

and you would get rid of stuey!!

and to top ot all off you want dolan as manager in the long run because of what he did ?? and what did nutsy do?? nothing!!


its a **** take right?

[A face]

The standard in the L of I has risen in recent years mainly because English clubs let so many players go who have returned to play for clubs here. More Irish players will follow as they are also let go but we will never get young talented players from other countries (old has beens yes ala DCFC).

Ahh...... why do we want talent from other countries, how about having all the players that go abroad spend at least 2-3 years in the system here. That alone would improve the league.

Listen ..... English clubs are raping junior clubs of talent here ever before they get a chance to make it to our system. And when they get there, a percentage of them are abused in working conditions, if there were a union the players could get into then there would be uproar. That is improving, but still when a 22 year old has-been comes back here after not making it over and doesn't come back into our system there is something wrong.

UEFA directive ..... 25 players on a squad .... this cant come fast enough for us ..... but you'll have clubs keep players in reserve teams and U21s etc.

We are a small Island on the periphery of European football and will remain so. When you see two or more Ireland based players on the national team then you will know we have and are advancing. Then you can aim your sights higher in relation to European progress.

Spare us the poor mouth ...... i hope you never get involved in Irish football in any capcity, you are depressing and of no value to our league.

How do you expect it all to happen ........ players to get on the national team, what is the course of events for this to happen, in your own words ??

[jofyisgod]

Spare us the poor mouth ...... i hope you never get involved in Irish football in any capcity, you are depressing and of no value to our league.

How do you expect it all to happen ........ players to get on the national team, what is the course of events for this to happen, in your own words ??

This view is so depressing, i agree. I hate people like this-they have no idea of what great potential the league has and are content with mediocrity. I can see him now, watching SKY Sports 1, and passing comments such as 'we're playing well today Fintan' and 'You'd never see this out at(Insert name of local eL ground)". What is your grand plan for the league Observer, we'd all love to know. Maybe one international every 3 years, and 4 live TV games aseason will suffice. Or how about we really go for it, and have sell-out crowds at all Premier Division matches, and have internationals playing in their prime in the eL. Shels have shown the way, let's all follow and strive for more.

[Slash/ED]

and have internationals playing in their prime in the eL.

It's a sign of the progress we've made as a league over the past few years, thanks to people with actual ambition who want to see the league move forward, that we have a few of these. People like Alan Moore and Joey Ndo are international players playing in this league in their prime and hopefully there's more to come.

[A face]

One of the biggest problems with the league at the moment is that clubs aren't doing enough, this is because they dont have the resources or experience or there are people with observers attitude (observer, i am not having another dig, just using you as an example) working within the system.
In fact, considering the league is only working in first or second gear at best, it is doing very very well.

[Shelsman]

I think that Pat Dolan has the right approach, even if he is a bit bombastic the way he trumpets the value of his long term strategy. He believes in developing young squads in the knowledge that a pearl will emerge from a certain percentage of oysters.

How about Wes Hoolahan emerging from the Shels youth system ???

Cork City have an excellent youth team / set up, so this at least guarantees their long term sustainability.

There's no reason you can't have both ( buy top players and promote best youth players too ).

[Limerick Boy]

is 'fair play boy' having an affair wit denis behan by any chance?