Winsor Park and a tri-colour

[rebel army no1]

are city even playing linfield, and if they are where?

[eoinh]

Unionists would be better off in a United Ireland or an agreed Ireland--at present with the Tory party in Britain virtually unelectable they are sidelined in Westminister because basically their numbers are so small and labour
seems destined to be in a permanent majority-hence no more hung
parliments and the chance to extract concessions. However if there was a United Ireland the Unionist (who wouldn't be Unionist then of course) vote would carry a lot of weight. In fact it would change the political landscape of Ireland. Their natural allies of course would be the fine girl party
Finn Gael- Fianna Fail would probally twin with Sinn Fein, and labour the Sdlp.
Parnell (a protestant) argued all this over a hundred years ago. Unfortunately no one listened and we are left with a border that serves no geographical, cultural, economic, or political purpose.Lord save us if they introduce that pathetic rugby anthem as our offical anthem-elevator music.

Very true

[CollegeTillIDie]

Linfield are not the worst offenders on this island regarding sectarianism by a long chalk. They played Catholic players from the early part of the 20th century right up to the dawn of the troubles. Even during the troubles Catholics worked for the club in administration etc when it was deemed too dangerous for the players concerned to sign them.Roy Coyle broke the mould in 1988 by signing to Two Catholics from North and West Africa respectively,
Moustafa Khamal and Antoine Coly broke the mould. Subsequently, players such as Dessie Gorman and Pat Fenlon played for the club.
So in spite of their supporters antics the club itself has a relatively good record on this issue.

Compare that with another club in the North famous for having players from the Sythe playing for them. Portadown have a former Loyalist terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently if that is no longer the case.

[paudie]

are city even playing linfield, and if they are where?

Setanta Cup draw not made yet but at least one EL club from City, Shels and Longford will be playing Linfield home and away in it.

[gspain]

I believe Linfield didn't sign any RCs from 1950-1988 - plenty before and plenty since. The club never had any sectarian rules or policies but may well have had an unwritten one.

Portadown have never been a sectarian club and have always had many RC players despite being in a mainly Protestant town. We played them twice in the 80's. Indeed I was at an away game in 1993 and a fan upon hearing my accent introduced himself, we started chatting and he indicated that he was a Catholic and a fan and that the team had always been open. A few months previous albeit due to injuries and suspensions 9 of the 13 players that togged out were RC.

In the height of the troubles in 1972 they also went to Cork to play Hibs in Austin Noonan's testimonial.

The Portadown current officers are listed below

President: Noel Dalzell
Director: Roy McMahon (Chairman)
Director: David Jameson (Vice-Chairman)
Director: Bobby Jameson
Director: Cyril Connolly
Director: Ronnie Stinson
Director: Mark McKinney
Secretary: Lewis Singleton
Treasurer: Trevor Marshall
Commercial Executive: Bill Emerson
Football Community Officer: Steven Wright
Health & Safety Officer: Ronnie Thompson
Chief Steward: John Harvey
Club Chaplain: Rev. Jim Rea

This is public information. Perhaps you'd care to name which one had a Loyalist Terrorist conviction and the nature of the offence and if they are still active in terrorism. Again convictions are public knowledge and public information.

There was a Loyalist terrorist using the Scoial Club as a drinking den with his buddies for some time and the club did have problems in trying to get rid of them.

Irish League football is far from perfect with regards to sectarianism. There have been a number of unfortunate incidents however this has not been promoted by any of the clubs and that is a key distinction. NI has sectarian lunatics in both communities and football is widely played in both communities.

Linfield are not the worst offenders on this island regarding sectarianism by a long chalk. They played Catholic players from the early part of the 20th century right up to the dawn of the troubles. Even during the troubles Catholics worked for the club in administration etc when it was deemed too dangerous for the players concerned to sign them.Roy Coyle broke the mould in 1988 by signing to Two Catholics from North and West Africa respectively,
Moustafa Khamal and Antoine Coly broke the mould. Subsequently, players such as Dessie Gorman and Pat Fenlon played for the club.
So in spite of their supporters antics the club itself has a relatively good record on this issue.

Compare that with another club in the North famous for having players from the Sythe playing for them. Portadown have a former Loyalist terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently if that is no longer the case.

[lopez]

Top post Gary, and the better for using sourced information.

I was at the November 1994 game in WP and I was sttting next to a bloke with his friends/relatives. Unlike those around him he was subdued most of the game (not cheering for NI - but NI fans didn't have much to cheer that night - but not joining in the abuse). I was in the Bot on the Malone Road afterwards and spotted him at the bar and got talking and it turned out he was a Republic fan from Portadown. He also supported Portadown regularly which kind of surprised me. He seemed dismissive of my reaction saying he'd never had any problems at the club and didn't even add that he had to keep his head down or anything like that. To prove the point that it's not all black and white in the IL, I got talking to a friend of a friend who then outside the Bot met this 'loyalist' he knew that 'ran', to use the expression, with the more unsavoury elements of Cliftonville. He was OK, but the two mates he turned up with were on the moody side, almost causing it to kick off when one called the friend of a friend, 'Seamus'.

[lopez]

You're all dreaming lads. Simplification of the highest order. Unionists want to remain British because that is what they are. Being born in Ireland makes no difference no more than being born in Britain does to the 2G. 'Logic' doesn't come into it. If it did then me and the other 2G men and women on this site would be singing about 'three hyenas on my chest', crying in our Bishop's L*nger every four years complaining about (what is it now?) 38 years of hurt, for what is, on paper, a more successful side than Ireland. Instead we vote in foreign elections - if we can be bothered - while remain being disenfranchised in our own country.

As for unionists, the majority of Irish wanted independence of some form, and anyone disagreeing should have been big enough to either accept that - it's not like they were Jews being taken over by the Nazis - or move to their 'homeland'. But it wasn't to be, and through the threat of force of arms they managed to split the country. Any future all-Ireland state will have to accept huge autonomy for Unionists, including such sensitive areas as policing and education, that is the writ in Spain at the moment and will be extended in due course to other 'new' EU members with sizeable minorities like Latvia and Slovakia and, if by some chance they get in, Turkey. This was recognised by people like Dev and Ruiri O'Bradaigh but there is nothing but silence on the subject at the moment, SF ditching 'Eire Nua' in the seventies to a more centralised (and unworkable) Ireland. The (internal) border will have to remain but it will be IMO a small price worth paying for Ireland to be finally independent.

[eoinh]

I agree with you Lopez. But i was simply looking at things from "a logical Point of view".

i actually think regional government would be a very good idea. Everbody knows that current national policy is really dublin policy. Look at the way our health service or transport policy is developed.

I think regional assemblies for Ulster, Leinster, Connaught and Munster would be a good idea.

It works well in places like Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Why not here?

Regional Assemblyman Jackie Healy Rae has a nice ring to it.

[lopez]

i actually think regional government would be a very good idea. Everbody knows that current national policy is really dublin policy. Look at the way our health service or transport policy is developed.

I agree with that. So as to remove the cost of more beuracracy, county councils should be dissolved. Also I want to campaign for Kepakland to get back it's status as the fifth province.

[dcfcsteve]

As a northern Catholic I'd love to see Unionism take it's head out of the sand and use it's current numerical position of strength to strong-arm a good deal for the 6 counties within a new pan-island federal Irish state. They won't have the choice any more within 20yrs time, so better facing up to it now. Unfortunately, we all know that won't happen until it's too late.

And I could see Belfast giving Dublin a serious run for it's money as an economic powerhouse in a single country. Belfast has always been a hive of ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. Would be much more competitive between the two than, say, Manchester currently is in relation to London.

Up the northerners, regardless of creed....!

[dcfcsteve]

You imply that being born in Britain might incline a person toward singing- three
skids marks on my shorts-etc but using your argument then why aren't the Scots and the Welsh singing it. It was Dev that included articles two and three into our constitution which laid claim to the North-i e pending the re-integration of the "national territory" the Dail will legislate for 26 counties-
The political reality is that most parties (including Britain) have signed up to the Good Friday agreement and the Brits have agreed within the terms of the agreement that the North will remain British for as long as the majority of people there choose to remain British. But as said previously the cenus figures
in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the neat future.
What then will Unionists refuse to accept the will and self determination of the majority of Irish people on this island for the second time in a hundred years? this would be a recipe for civil war.... Someone once said that not all Catholics are nationalist and prefer to remain British-but not all Protestants
are Unionist either.

Sadly the goal posts are moving. Whereas the agreed talk used to be of remaining in the UK until a majority of the population of Northern Ireland actively chose otherwise, some Unionist politicians have subtly changed the emphasis of this in recent years onto a requirement for a majority within each community. i.e. feck the nationalists if they're in a majority - unless the majority of the new minority agree to change as well, it shouldn't happen. Madness. Fortunately neither the British nor Irish governments would accept that classical Unionist gerrymandering of the concept of democracy...

[Duncan Gardner]

Fortunately neither the British nor Irish governments would accept that classical Unionist gerrymandering of the concept of democracy...


If some future election sees nationalists at 51%, there might not be instant end to partition some assume. London or Dublin might get cold feet, unionist paramilitaries could up the ante. The 'majority of both sides' fudge might then be used as an excuse for intertia, realpolitik or craven giving in to terrorism...

as a northern Catholic I'd love to see Unionism take it's head out of the sand and use it's current numerical position of strength to strong-arm a good deal for the 6 counties within a new pan-island federal Irish state. They won't have the choice any more within 20yrs time


They probably will. Nationalists will still be rather less than 50% of the population (41- 42% in recent elections).

But as said previously the census figures in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the near future


I read them as saying 'Catholic' numbers will top out at around 46- 47% between 2015-2020. The nationalist slogan is wishful thinking, not political reality!

It works well in places like Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Why not here?


It wouldn't work so well in Valais, Karnten or Mecklenburg-Vorpommern if anyone suggested any of them join a different country?

Any future all-Ireland state will have to accept huge autonomy for Unionists


Would this be so different from the current relationship between North and South (broadly, everyone in both can choose how much or little they co-operate with the other)? Why not accept a mutually co-operative relationship. Like Switzerland, Austria or Germany, eh?

Would they admit that it would serve there community a lot better if they were part of an agreed Ireland a carrying the electoral clout of circa one million people voting into a population of 5 million on this island- rather than the present situation where their voice is negligable voting into a population of over 50 million in Britain?


No. The whole point of having electoral clout is using it to achieve your political objectives. Not to give up a favoured minority position with plenty of autonomy, for a less favoured one with less autonomy!

However if there was a United Ireland the Unionist...natural allies of course would be the fine girl party Finn Gael- Fianna Fail would probally twin with Sinn Fein, and labour the Sdlp


OK, notionally...not all unionists share FG's conservativism. The SDLP are much more likely to merge with a fellow nationalist party, FF. I wouldn't rule out a FF-SF coalition (ie, don't believe Bertie).

Unfortunately no one listened and we are left with a border that serves no geographical, cultural, economic, or political purpose


Except that it separates two separate countries. The Belgian/ Dutch, Swiss/ Norwegian or even Czech/ Slovak borders serve little more economic, cultural or geographical purpose than the Irish..

"It certainly won't be anything like a Linfield- Rangers loyalist love-in"...What details am I suppose to add, hombre?


I assumed you'd agree that, while Linfield- Rangers wouldn't exactly be a quiet night out, it's unlikely to be openly confrontational. NI- England may well be, alas.

[lopez]

You imply that being born in Britain might incline a person toward singing- three
skids marks on my shorts-etc

. I like it. If you've seen my regular past posts you'd know I wouldn't imply such a thing. The suggestion within this thread is that Unionists should see themselves as Irish merely by being born in Ireland.

but using your argument then why aren't the Scots and the Welsh singing it.

Despite the hype, unionism is still strong in Scotland (around 50%), as seen by the 'skid marks' at Ibrox. 100 years ago it was much stronger with Tory MPs dotted around the 'country'. As for Wales, where does Keith 'Fat Les' Allen, from 'World in Motion' and 'Vindaloo' fame, and described as 'English' in a biog from The Guardian, come from? Swansea (David Baddiel's birthplace is unobtainable on the internet but I've heard rumours he was born in Cardiff-He's listed in www.famouswelsh.com). Compare this with Ireland's history viz a viz Britannia and the current desire of unionists for independence (1.5%: There's far more Protestants want to become part of an all-Ireland state).

It was Dev that included articles two and three into our constitution which laid claim to the North-i e pending the re-integration of the "national territory" the Dail will legislate for 26 counties...

Dev always knew that a 6C parliament had to remain. See John Bowman's: De Valera and the Ulster Question 1917-1973.

But as said previously the cenus figures in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the neat future. What then will Unionists refuse to accept the will and self determination of the majority of Irish people on this island for the second time in a hundred years? this would be a recipe for civil war....

Seeing that 33 to 40% of the population brought down the Stormont government civil war is quite likely. The point is that if the numbers lead to an all-Ireland state, something will need to be done not to alienate Unionists (had Stormont done this with Catholics, 3.5K lives might still be alive today). Extensive autonomy covering everything except external border control and defence should be handed over. Even some foreign affairs (like NI remaining in the commonwealth and the rights of the NI population to British citizenship) should be handed over.

Someone once said that not all Catholics are nationalist and prefer to remain British-but not all Protestants
are Unionist either.

NI is about nationality not religion. However RC unionists have been discriminated from much of public life and until recently there has been rarely any UUP members who were Catholic (FFS, there's a FP member of SF in Coleraine council). It's hard to say if Catholic unionists actually feel British or are just unionist for financial reasons.

And I could see Belfast giving Dublin a serious run for it's money as an economic powerhouse in a single country. Belfast has always been a hive of ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. Would be much more competitive between the two than, say, Manchester currently is in relation to London. Up the northerners, regardless of creed....!

Dublin and Belfast could be like many city relations in Europe because of their relative size (Munich and Hamburg in the old WG, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, Madrid and Barcelona, Turin and Milan in Northern Italy.)

Sadly the goal posts are moving. Whereas the agreed talk used to be of remaining in the UK until a majority of the population of Northern Ireland actively chose otherwise, some Unionist politicians have subtly changed the emphasis of this in recent years onto a requirement for a majority within each community. i.e. feck the nationalists if they're in a majority - unless the majority of the new minority agree to change as well, it shouldn't happen. Madness.

Trimble was on about a Unionist veto on re-unification a few years ago. It didn't surprise me at all seeing Unionism's history re 'democracy'.

The 'majority of both sides' fudge might then be used as an excuse for intertia, realpolitik or craven giving in to terrorism...

As in 1914.

The whole point of having electoral clout is using it to achieve your political objectives. Not to give up a favoured minority position with plenty of autonomy, for a less favoured one with less autonomy!

Up until recently Unionism relied on being the balence of power in slim majorities in Westminster (like the IPP a century before). No slim majority; no influence. With 20% of the Irish vote this would rarely be the case in Ireland. It could also mean that parties may split along socio-economic lines within Unionism rather than who's the best at being British.

OK, notionally...not all unionists share FG's conservativism. The SDLP are much more likely to merge with a fellow nationalist party, FF. I wouldn't rule out a FF-SF coalition (ie, don't believe Bertie).

Good point.

Except that it separates two separate countries. The Belgian/ Dutch, Swiss/ Norwegian or even Czech/ Slovak borders serve little more economic, cultural or geographical purpose than the Irish..

Take it you mean Swedish/Norwegian. The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers). Even between the two Basque towns of Hendaye and Irun, the perceptions of nationality is a distinct them and us. Between Holland and Germany, few on either side (save a few Nazis perhaps) wants to join the other. That's not the case along much of the Irish border. It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists. The examples you give are therefore disingenuous (as you know well). They describe clear cut borders between two nations, despite all being one country at some time in the past. Nowhere is there a significant area where almost 50% of the whole population in any region wants to join a neighbouring country and where this is greatly higher percentage that do in counties/provinces/cantons along a national border. Within the new EU states, the closest examples are between Sovakia and Hungary, Latvia/Lithuania and Russia and perhaps Slovenia and Italy. (I'd even add the partition of Tyrol between Austria and Italy within the old EU as the nearest to the irredentism of Ireland. Certainly in my experience, the Belgian Flemish nationalists - despite the same language, and in parts, religion - hate the Dutch with a vengeance and are like Basques seeking independence rather than an anschluss).

[Duncan Gardner]

Take it you mean Swedish/Norwegian.

Indeed!

The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers)

Up to a point. Plenty of Germans in Alsace (Wenger played in the local kreisliga as a kid), Schleswig, even in Upper Silesia (where Miroslav Klose hails from, hence the unusual name).

It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists

Waterside (one of two effectively separate neighboring towns) is but six miles from the border. Your point is fair though slightly exaggerated. Mine's not disingenous- I'm happy to accept the border was unfairly drawn, not that it shouldn't exist per se. As you know...

I'm off awhile. A pleasant and peaceful holiday to all!

[lopez]

The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers)

Up to a point. Plenty of Germans in Alsace (Wenger played in the local kreisliga as a kid), Schleswig, even in Upper Silesia (where Miroslav Klose hails from, hence the unusual name).

And I'm sure there are a few French in Saar too. Both Alsace and Schleswig (the Danish bit) were under German rule for little over half a century between them. Enough for a stream of 'planters' to be settled (like Turkish Cyprus) but not enough time for 'nation building.' It might be all a bit of a myth by the French, but there weren't too many pleased in Alsace-Lorraine to being re-united to the reich once again. Going into Poland, Bohemia and Austria is a different matter. The loss of German lands and cities (Danzig the most famous) and the failure to allow rump German speaking Austria to join with Germany was a malicious and (in view of WW2) possibly a stupid act. However, despite the virtual demolition of German society in what is now Poland, I'm sure plenty of German names remained. Me and Sylvo met a taxi driver with one in Auschwitz (not sure if once part of Austrian Galicia or German Silesia) in April although he was ignorant from whom he picked it up from. Anyway, with the unscrupulous manner that Germany hands out citizenship (Kebabsarbeiter geboren sind im Reich: Nein. Vielen gut fussballers von Africa mit keine Deutsche blut: Ja ) I'd take any Miroslav's German credentials with a large amount of salt, hombre. An old Nazi membership card of a father or grandfather was sufficient for Soviet Germans to get citizenship when the USSR fell apart.

It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists

Waterside (one of two effectively separate neighboring towns) is but six miles from the border. Your point is fair though slightly exaggerated. Mine's not disingenous- I'm happy to accept the border was unfairly drawn, not that it shouldn't exist per se. As you know...

Well, I'm sure that the partition of Derry into two cities is not unthinkable, but until then, it's one city with a nationalist majority. It's also a nationalist majority within four of NI's six counties. Even the statelet's capital is now majority nationalist. I was thinking more of Portadown and Enniskillen - Unionist major towns even if situated in Catholic majority counties- when I was coming up with the 20 mile figure.

I'm off awhile. A pleasant and peaceful holiday to all!

Shona nollaig agus un feliz ano nuevo.

[BobbySands]

As part of the Anglo Irish agreement the republic did away with the articles in the constitution claiming juristiction over the north. This copperfastened the two country/one island concept. Setanta cup is nonsense. Why not play against the Icelandic or Macedonian champs. Build a wall along the border and leave the likes of Paisley, Peter Robinson and Frank Carson up to their own devices.

[Troy.McClure]

Setanta cup is nonsense. Why not play against the Icelandic or Macedonian champs.

LOL

Good to see someone getting back(ish) on topic anyway

[lopez]

LOL

Good to see someone getting back(ish) on topic anyway

Troy. Big up to responding to such a post. LOL: A freestater with the moniker of BS. You couldn't make it up.

[Cosmo]

And back to the point.

Their should be an agreement between all clubs involved that Union Jacks and Tricolours should be banned at all the setanta cup matches. If they don't do this all clubs involved are just plain stupid.

As regards Portadown. We played them in a preseason friendly last season. 3 of us up went up. Went to the pub in the ground where you've to 'buzz' to get in. Probably shouldnt have gone in as we werent made feel very welcome and got one comment 'dirty fenian scum' directed at me. Left then.

After the match though we went into the other bar in the ground. A few dodgy heads but got talking to a few of them and they were grand (a bit of good humoured rangers/ celtic slagging). Made us feel very welcome and got a few free pints and they dug out some old programmes for us!!

You're always going to get the headers at it though. Last time Drogs played Linfield in our old stadium, the Lourdes Stadium, a local politician ran around the race track around the pitch with a burning Union Jack.

[paudie]

And back to the point.

Their should be an agreement between all clubs involved that Union Jacks and Tricolours should be banned at all the setanta cup matches. If they don't do this all clubs involved are just plain stupid.

Whether to ban UJ's & tricolours or not is a tough one. If clubs try to enforce it by stewards taking flags off fans entering the ground it could cause more trouble than it would prevent.

Clubs playing each other should certainly agree rules for home and away fans re chanting, flags etc well in advance.

I think Glentoran fans were advised by their own club not to bring UJ's to the Brandywell for the recent friendly.