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Thread: Northern Ireland 1-1 Republic of Ireland (WCQ - Windsor Park, 17th November 1993)

  1. #21
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    Anybody who carries the scars of the Giles era, has to be of a certain vintage.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Was just having a search for some more photos from the night and came across this one:



    Under the old offside rule, was Keane in an offside position there?

    There were two NI players across the other side of the field possibly playing him on-side, but the position of his lurking shadow in the bottom-left corner of the frame below would suggest it was very tight:



    Thank God that was missed, bloody hell! Maybe it was karma for the ref and linesman having missed Van Basten in an offside position when Koeman misfired his shot towards Kieft's head for Holland's goal against us at Euro '88. My youth would have been a bleaker one without the memories of USA '94 as I can't even recall Italia '90.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post

    Under the old offside rule, was Keane in an offside position there?

    There were two NI players across the other side of the field possibly playing him on-side, but the position of his lurking shadow in the bottom-left corner of the frame below would suggest it was very tight:
    Bonnie posted a link to an article on another thread, in true Fly fashion (the old Fly fashion), he was too lazy to tag it properly or give it a description. The article related to the offside rule of law.
    Why the offside law is genius

    Italia 90

    It was the sterility of Italia 90, as with so many rule changes, that provided the impetus. First a player level with the second-last defender was deemed to be onside, whereas previously he had had to be behind. Then in 1995 came a subtle change to the wording of the law so that a player was deemed to be active if he was "gaining an advantage by being in that position" rather than, as previously, if he was "seeking to gain an advantage".


    So I guess from that, a player could have been in an offside position but as long as he wasn't seeking an advantage, he could be deemed inactive.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Anybody who carries the scars of the Giles era, has to be of a certain vintage.
    Surely you're not 60...

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    Capped Player OwlsFan's Avatar
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    Funny you should post this thread as before the Latvia game I was out for our usual pre-match prandials with my football mates, no less than three of whom were in Windsor Park that night and we were discussing the game. One of the three was also at the Iran play-off game. No many can beat that I'd say. They had to jump to their feet when Norn Iron scored and sit on their hands when we equalised. They drove up in a Dublin registered car which was stopped three times and examined to see whether it was carrying a bomb!! Finding a parking spot was difficult but the RUC directed them to a relatively safe locality. Couldn't celebrate until they crossed the border and they then did a Dell Boy and Rodney when they found out they were millionaires.

    Truly one of the great nights.
    Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.

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  8. #26
    Seasoned Pro Crosby87's Avatar
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    Will there ever be another great night to be an Irish football fan?
    No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.

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    Of course. Why not?

    And great story OF;pal of mine who's a pure Dub was in there and said it wasn't a pleasant evening.

    Was there for the 4-0 which was not exactly a barrel of laughs.
    Remember congratulating the one fan from I saw from the North with a green-and-white scarf;The rest were red-white-and-blue to a man...
    That said, was wearing an orange hat for the '93 game watching the TV, one that said 'Hup Holland' ​on...

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Under the old offside rule, was Keane in an offside position there?

    There were two NI players across the other side of the field possibly playing him on-side, but the position of his lurking shadow in the bottom-left corner of the frame below would suggest it was very tight:

    Thank God that was missed, bloody hell! Maybe it was karma for the ref and linesman having missed Van Basten in an offside position when Koeman misfired his shot towards Kieft's head for Holland's goal against us at Euro '88. My youth would have been a bleaker one without the memories of USA '94 as I can't even recall Italia '90.
    It looks to me like he's still a yard behind the offside line, but nevertheless I don't think he'd have been deemed 'active' for the reason geysir cited. The exception that proves the rule (although it occurred after the shift in emphasis in 1995) also involves Roy Keane, aptly. In the original 1999 FA Cup semi-final between Arsenal and Manchester United (the replay would become an all-time classic famous for Ryan Giggs' wonder goal) when Roy Keane had a goal disallowed because he was in an offside position on the opposite side of the pitch as Ryan Giggs knocked the ball past his man on the wing, and the debate that broke out afterwards helped clarify a lot of what's meant by 'gaining an advantage).

    For some reason, another isolated example that sticks in my mind is also from the FA Cup in the mid-nineties, when Wimbledon were in the process of beating some lower-league outfit like Brentford, and a striker (possibly Robbie Earle or Jason Euell) was watching his shot roll into the net only when Andy Clarke, having been in an offside position, ran up and booted it in to make sure, the goal being promptly disallowed to his strike partner's chagrin.
    Last edited by Charlie Darwin; 17/11/2013 at 10:08 PM.

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    I'm confused Ted. The old "not interfering with play" interpretation would have applied to Keane in 93, and the goal would still have stood. The difference now is that you can feasibly be "interfering with play" but not be active.

    My favourite example of interfering with play, as an ex-goalie and Arsenal fan! - is that famous Nayim from the halfway line goal. There was a centre forward offside in a central position who Seaman had half an eye on, taking him off his line. He wasn't active in today's rule but I am 99pc sure that Seaman was lobbed because he was also looking to sweep any through ball to the offside player. He was further forward than he would jave been if the forward wasn't offside. In the old rules that should have been "interfering with play" in the strictest sense
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 17/11/2013 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy View Post
    Surely you're not 60...
    No
    Did you wait until you were over 20 before you avidly followed the 'fortunes' of the Ireland team?
    I can't remember exactly which was my first memory of following the Intl team, I was just born into it
    But Giles's era was my first full campaign.

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    You've lost me with that second line. Though the answer is No.

    The rest, fair enough...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy View Post
    You've lost me with that second line. Though the answer is No.

    The rest, fair enough...
    You lost yourself.
    You deduced I was 60 because I said I have the scars from the Giles era, you do realise the Giles era started 1974?
    If I was 60 then I would have been 19 or 20. Therefore I asked. did you wait until you were 20 before you avidly followed the Irish team.

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    Actually it was a joke!


    Irony and all that. No matter.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Bonnie posted a link to an article on another thread, in true Fly fashion (the old Fly fashion), he was too lazy to tag it properly or give it a description. The article related to the offside rule of law.
    Why the offside law is genius

    Italia 90

    It was the sterility of Italia 90, as with so many rule changes, that provided the impetus. First a player level with the second-last defender was deemed to be onside, whereas previously he had had to be behind. Then in 1995 came a subtle change to the wording of the law so that a player was deemed to be active if he was "gaining an advantage by being in that position" rather than, as previously, if he was "seeking to gain an advantage".


    So I guess from that, a player could have been in an offside position but as long as he wasn't seeking an advantage, he could be deemed inactive.
    Sorry, yeah, my confusion. The goal stands.

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    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy View Post
    Irony and all that. No matter.
    Like rain on your wedding day.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    This, an extract from Miguel Delaney's From Stuttgart to Saipan, is a wonderful read...

    'Alan McLoughlin on the goal that sealed Ireland’s World Cup place, 20 years ago today': http://thescore.thejournal.ie/windso...78650-Nov2013/

    FROM A POSITION where qualification had looked a procession, Ireland went into the final game of the USA ’94 group needing to beat Northern Ireland or draw and hope one of either Spain or Denmark came out on top in their showdown in Seville.



    If that wasn’t enough tension, events off the field actually amplified it to unbearable levels rather than render it irrelevant. Three weeks before the game, the Shankill Road bombing killed 10 civilians as well as the IRA member who prematurely set off the bomb. Two weeks before, UFF paramilitaries burst into the Rising Star bar in Derry and shouted ‘trick or treat’ before shooting eight people dead.

    In Roy Keane’s autobiography, he claims some of the English-born players — including Alan McLoughlin — needed some of the background explained. McLoughlin refutes this.

    “I was very conscious of it. Both my parents are Irish. I lived in Manchester until I was 19. I completely knew the situation and was no more detached from it than someone living in the South of Ireland. Nothing needed to be explained to me. But in saying that, it hits you like a ton of bricks when you’re in the middle of it. The day before we played, we trained on the pitch and some local lads ran up to the fence as we arrived. They put their hands up pretending to shoot us, like with their fingers, and that hit home.

    “Jack insisted on the same routine though. I don’t think security were particularly enamoured with us but we insisted on going for a walk on the golf course. There was the threat of a bomb in the hotel so there were tense times. We had armoured personnel, people carrying weapons on the buses dressed up as players. It was difficult and there was the little niggle in the back of your head, ‘is someone going to do something stupid?’”



    Charlton as ever had his own choice of words.

    “‘Let’s get ****ing in, ****ing out, get the result and get ****ing home.’

    “No team-talk needed really. A quick resumé on Northern Ireland, quick thing on set-piece, but impose yourselves on them. That was it.”

    Until they got out there. Then came the catcalls and a whole lot worse. Much of it was saved for the unusually placed Belfast native Alan Kernaghan like ‘you ****ing English *******, I hope your mother dies of cancer’. A mere 9,900 Northern Ireland supporters — dotted by 100 undeterred Republic fans — created a spiked wall of noise. And one that seemed to close in on those on the sidelines.

    “The safest place was on the pitch,” says McLoughlin. “The bench was literally a bench. I could hear it and feel it right behind me. You didn’t dare look around and make eye contact. The venom in their eyes shocked me. I remember thinking ‘this isn’t natural’. You just get on with it and pray at some stage you get onto the pitch. That was the safest place to be, you could drown out all the noise.”

    Undoubtedly subdued by both the sound and Northern Ireland’s driven display, Ireland struggled to do as ordered and impose themselves. On the sideline, however, Charlton was stuck on the specifics. Houghton most of all. Any time the star of Stuttgart squandered another ball or chance, Charlton seemed to scream to no-one in particular, ‘Look at him!’ Look at ****ing Raymond. Off, get him off. Get him ****ing off!’

    McLoughlin was to get onto the pitch. Just as he came on though so many jeers turned to spiteful cheers as Jimmy Quinn leapt to score a flying volley. America looked a lot further away across the Atlantic.

    Again though, it’s odd what goes professional’s minds in such extreme surroundings.

    ‘I hadn’t scored for Ireland at this stage and I was getting mighty ****ed with this. I’d hit the bar once or twice and came close to scoring but badly wanted to.”

    So did Ireland, but nothing was happening. “Jack said, ‘get on, influence the game, get forward, see if you can mix it up and keep getting in the box and create something.’”

    Eventually he did. With 14 minutes to go, Eddie McGoldrick was hauled down on the right. Irwin chipped the free-kick in only for Gerry Taggart to clear… but not far enough.

    “All I remember is the free-kick coming into the box. Big Quinny did me a right favour. He blocked Iain Dowie. And I was a good finisher — 106 goals in my career saw I was — and I practised and practised. I knew what I did to get the ball down quickly from chest to volley was done perfectly. Then it was a matter of relaxing and hitting it as best I could. I had to hit it with my left because I was being closed down on my right. To be fair, that switch takes confidence in itself. And as soon as it left my foot I knew Tommy Wright had absolutely no chance. It was always going away from him. And it was gone in a flash.”

    Westward ho once more. Not that such a thought even entered McLoughlin’s mind at that moment.

    “The reaction from me wasn’t really, ‘Oh I’m going to get us to the World Cup’. It was ‘thank **** I’ve scored at last.’ And that was it. That was the emotion. Because it had been playing on my mind. I was a goalscorer, had one in every five games in my career . And I’d gone over three years without scoring was getting mighty ****ed off. The implications of that goal only sank in as the game dragged on.”

    Dragged on is probably the wrong phrase because McLoughlin admits it was a blur.

    “As I said, there are only a few things about it all I remember. And the next was the final whistle, people jumping on you, but then that agonising wait to see if we’d got the right result.”

    At the same time Ireland were prematurely punching the air, Denmark were laying siege to the Spanish goal as they looked for the draw that would have put both sides in Seville through… but, unaware of events in the North, neither could take the chance. After 10 minutes, early Danish pressure saw Andoni Zubizaretta inexplicably roll the ball to Barcelona team-mate Michael Laudrup just yards in front of him. Having forced himself into a foul, Zubizaretta was off and 23-year-old Santiago Canizares was on for his international debut.

    For Sofia ’87 read ‘Seville ’93 as Ireland’s hopes again rested on an international novice. Canizares hadn’t even time to warm up but didn’t have to wait long to feel the heat. He produced save after unlikely save. And on the hour, something even more improbably happened. Peter Schmeichel flapped at a corner to allow Fernando Hierro an open goal. It would be enough for Ireland… so long as Canizares stayed strong.

    He did but was still fortunate a number of Danish players didn’t — Claus Christiansen missed from six yards and Kim Vilfort from three.

    “People were saying we were through,” says McLoughlin. “Then someone else said Denmark had equalised but, when it happened, it was amazing.”

    Afterwards, McLoughlin told Ger Canning, “That was for my wife and little girl Abby.”



    Some of the Northern players would be similarly grounded.

    “A few shook your hand, said ‘well done, hope you have a great tournament.’ Some just didn’t want to know which is understandable. The first thing Jack said was, ‘Right, let’s get the **** out of here, let’s get back to Dublin and celebrate.’

    “We landed in Dublin and there were thousands at the airport. It was one o’clock in the morning and we went straight out on the ****. I hadn’t slept but I still had to get back to Portsmouth for training the next morning. I ended up getting a taxi to the airport and then straight to the training ground. Jim Smith took one look at me and said if I didn’t perform on Saturday I wouldn’t be going to Ireland again so I had to get to bed fairly sharpish. The wife wasn’t happy either but I needed to put in the performance on the Saturday because they paid the wages. I think I did okay!”
    Initially it looked like the goal was going to transform McLoughlin’s life and career. Charlton spoke afterwards of how he had ‘justified his existence’. Every media outlet in the country wanted him. So did the American embassy. McLoughlin and his wife were invited to Ballsbridge for the World Cup draw. But, having driven Ireland to America, McLoughlin frustratingly returned to a role as passenger once there.

    “It was a slight disappointment. Obviously Italia ’90 was a shock so anything was a bonus.”

    With the yearning to play, the post-career pressures and the grafting — as he puts it — does McLoughlin have any regrets himself?

    “Well watching that goal in Windsor Park always helps clear my head. Funnily enough, I don’t even have it on tape. I watched it recently on YouTube. And I’m very lucky to be in a select group of players — Ray twice, Dave O’Leary, Packie, Jason McAteer for the goal against Holland — that will always be remembered for something iconic. I never reached the dizzy heights of, say, John Sheridan. But I’m always remembered for scoring that goal. And it was a great goal. I couldn’t have hit it any better. You’re remembered for iconic moments and I’m thankful I’ve managed to pull one out of the bag.

    “It was worth the ride.”

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  21. #37
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Just watching the Spain-Denmark highlights again; seriously though, what on earth was Zubizarreta trying to do? Had he shaken on a pact with his Barcelona team-mate, Michael Laudrup, to see both sides qualify or something?...

    I had never been aware just how close Wales had come to World Cup qualification that night either until I read this BBC nostalgia piece yesterday evening: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24962509

    What was more shocking was learning that a Wales fan actually died in the stadium after the final whistle due to being hit by a stray rocket flare. How have I never been aware of that until now? Surely it was massive news at the time?

  22. #38
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Vaguely remember about that Wales fan alright.

    Funny that, in a thread about Alan McLoughlin and offside but not interfering, that McLoughlin being offside for Sheedy's equaliser in Italia 90 hasn't come up yet.

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    Was he?

  24. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Sorry, yeah, my confusion. The goal stands.
    You don't think we need a Tricky C investigation into the matter, just to be doubly sure?
    He's probably too busy anyway with this being the 50th anniv of the grassy knoll affair.

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