Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[paul_oshea]

I have to say if anyone was watching Forrester last night, they wont be going in for him anytime soon. He was like a lost little boy, his touch was terrible and completely off the pace.

I said it on the other thread, and for once it was met by silence so I imagine a few know its true, but so man LOI players look like boys who never grew into men, when playing against their European counterparts. IN this day and age I can understand physical fitness is not up to scratch but physique and upper body strength there should be no excuse. The GAA players, and yes i know LOI players are years ahead in terms of fitness and how much they run, run a huge amount during games and take big hits continuously they need great upper body strength, and looking at them none of them lack in that, and many don't lose the pace in focusing on their core and upper body strength. They are not even semi professional. There is no excuse why LOI players shouldn't be as physicall strong as their European counterparts regardless of the level. Take pats for example why not use Faheys pay and use his experience in England to mirror the strength and conditioning that he has seen and been involved in first hand. There are no players coming back that have performed at that level, have a bit of cop on and use his experience in a beneficial way for the club. I would suggest their is little foresight in LOI clubs, like a lot of backward GAA clubs and football clubs up and down the country.

I agree with the point around MON attending games though, there are many good reasons for his attendance not least guppy or walford looks at a player and any of the 3 use thier contacts to perhaps help with a move to a bigger club and a stronger league.

[geysir]

So in your case then MON shouldn't bother looking at any LOI matches while he is over here and also before the English & Scottish leagues haven't even started yet.

In comparison between the SPL and the LOI the difference is not really that big. Dundalk, Cork, Pats,possibly both rovers and Derry could easily hold their own in that league. To add no one playing in the SPL would get near to being an automatic starting XI in an Irish team. The major difference between the two is off the pitch where the Scottish set up is admittedly years ahead of the Irish one. That is the fault of the clubs themselves never batting an eyelid to invest in infrastructure or facilities.

The likes of Richie Towell (Dlk), Sean Gannon (Dlk), Andy Boyle (Dlk), Horgan (Dlk), Hoban (Dlk), Chris Forrester (Pats), Conan Byrne (Pats), Lennihan (Cork), Patterson (Derry), McNamee (Derry) to name a few all have great careers ahead of them and could possibly be Irish Internationals with a bit of hard work and luck. No one is suggesting that they will get a call up while there are LOI players but the Irish manager should be attending the odd game or two while they are over in Ireland to help promote the top league in the country.

I think it follows that if the LOI players were exposed to a similar SPL infrastructure, coaching, full time, etc you'd get a better standard of league.
But there is a gulf at present between the LOI and SPL. One such difference can be seen in the Scottish u21 team, who're maybe a bit better than ours, had 10 players starting from the SPL in a 2015 Euro qual, only 2 of them were from Celtic. Why Scotland are not producing players like Hansen Dalglish etc is another story, but the structure is there for that to happen.

[DannyInvincible]

Players are more likely to be playing in the SPL while getting a call up than the LOI though. The likes of Stokes, Mcgeady, O'Dea and Randolph have all been Irish players while playing in Scotland. It's been a while since a LOI player has been in a competitive squad.

Ah, if I'd properly read Charlie's post, rather than skimming through, I'd have comprehended the context of AB's post better. My bad, as they say.

I'd forgotten to mention Wes Hoolahan and had been eager to add some more League of Ireland club-bred firepower after having a bit of a think since - the likes of Paul McGrath, Curtis Fleming, Stephen Ireland and Roy Keane - but they all played with League of Ireland clubs in their early days, long before the receipt of any senior international recognition. Robbie having played for Celtic had also slipped my mind. And, of course, Shay was at Celtic in his youth.

So, it'd be the likes of Joe Gamble, Jason Byrne, Glenn Crowe and Stephen Geoghegan (didn't he get called up by Mick once?) I should actually have been thinking of. The former three only ever played in friendly games, whilst Geoghegan never even saw game-time. Out of interest, who was the last player to be capped competitively whilst playing in the League of Ireland? Was it Shamrock Rovers' Pat Byrne against Denmark in November of 1985?

What other players in relatively recent times have received call-ups whilst based in Scotland? I've got Liam Miller, Colin Healy, Jim Goodwin, Tommy Coyne, Cascarino, Packie, Mick McCarthy, Chris Morris... Did Roy play internationally whilst at Celtic?

... Patterson (Derry), McNamee (Derry) to name a few all have great careers ahead of them and could possibly be Irish Internationals with a bit of hard work and luck.

Patterson is 30 and already has five international caps with NI. I'm not 100 per cent sure if he's tied by a competitive cap or whether those appearances were all in friendlies, but, either way, he won't be receiving an Ireland call-up any time soon.

[DannyInvincible]

The GAA players, and yes i know LOI players are years ahead in terms of fitness and how much they run, run a huge amount during games and take big hits continuously they need great upper body strength, and looking at them none of them lack in that, and many don't lose the pace in focusing on their core and upper body strength. They are not even semi professional.

Just on the physique of GAA players, I've often thought they looked almost puny when seeing them come up against Aussie rules players in the international rules series. The Aussie rules players are full-time professionals, of course. It makes a huge difference.

[paul_oshea]

eh it's a different sport as is rugby it's no way comparable.

[DannyInvincible]

eh it's a different sport as is rugby it's no way comparable.

'Twas just a casual observation, but GAA and association football are different sports too, aren't they? And GAA and Aussie rules are similar enough to combine to form a cross-code.

[paul_oshea]

ya but thats not what I was comparing semi professional to professional in terms of physique from strength and conditioning. you've missed the point and I thought you might when I just said different sports.

my point is there is no excuse for semi professionals not to have proper strength and conditioning core and upper body. not comparing gaelic and soccer.

but in relation to assuie rules it's more comparable to rugby in my mind. core strength built for tackling like rugby.

[paul_oshea]

ya but thats not what I was comparing semi professional to professional in terms of physique from strength and conditioning. you've missed the point and I thought you might when I just said different sports.

my point is there is no excuse for semi professionals not to have proper strength and conditioning core and upper body. not comparing gaelic and soccer.

but in relation to assuie rules it's more comparable to rugby in my mind. core strength built for tackling like rugby.

[Stuttgart88]

So in your case then MON shouldn't bother looking at any LOI matches while he is over here and also before the English & Scottish leagues haven't even started yet.

In comparison between the SPL and the LOI the difference is not really that big. Dundalk, Cork, Pats,possibly both rovers and Derry could easily hold their own in that league. To add no one playing in the SPL would get near to being an automatic starting XI in an Irish team. The major difference between the two is off the pitch where the Scottish set up is admittedly years ahead of the Irish one. That is the fault of the clubs themselves never batting an eyelid to invest in infrastructure or facilities.

The likes of Richie Towell (Dlk), Sean Gannon (Dlk), Andy Boyle (Dlk), Horgan (Dlk), Hoban (Dlk), Chris Forrester (Pats), Conan Byrne (Pats), Lennihan (Cork), Patterson (Derry), McNamee (Derry) to name a few all have great careers ahead of them and could possibly be Irish Internationals with a bit of hard work and luck. No one is suggesting that they will get a call up while there are LOI players but the Irish manager should be attending the odd game or two while they are over in Ireland to help promote the top league in the country.

Was that directed at me?

I recently applauded MON for attending LOI games. He's right to, for many reasons

[jinxy lilywhite]

Not at all. It was directed mainly at Ardeebhoy and others who dismiss the top players as not being good enough and that MON shouldn't bother going to matches.

[Charlie Darwin]

Except a lot more Irish internationals have come out of the SPL in the last decade or two...Not sure about Div.3 & the LOI, numbers probably on a par.
Or they should be.

How many weren't playing for Celtic? They are obviously far more than an SPL club.

[Charlie Darwin]

ya but thats not what I was comparing semi professional to professional in terms of physique from strength and conditioning. you've missed the point and I thought you might when I just said different sports.

my point is there is no excuse for semi professionals not to have proper strength and conditioning core and upper body. not comparing gaelic and soccer.

but in relation to assuie rules it's more comparable to rugby in my mind. core strength built for tackling like rugby.

I think the point of the GAA/Aussie Rules comparison was in terms of how a semi-pro is conditioned compared to a pro. While they're different sports, they're very similar in terms of how they're played, yet the "semi-pro" (yeah, I know they're amateur, but the best ones are conditioned like semi-pro athletes or better) and they are noticeably smaller than their counterparts.

You are right about Forrester, though, as I have heard from a few people here and outside the internet that he has real trouble putting on weight. If he was at a club in England or Scotland, they'd have a dietician and strength and conditioning people who could work with him to help him put it on, but as it is he just gets some advice and is more or less left to his own devices. You're right about LOI players in general too being smaller than their counterparts, or at least they don't have the same power as players of a similar stature in other leagues do, which is a conditioning problem. I'd say there's an element of culture there too - they don't play in a professional league, so a lot of players are conditioned to just be better than average, rather than the likes of Pat Hoban and Richie Towell who appear to condition themselves to be top-level athletes rather than just LOI level.

[Fixer82]

I think the point of the GAA/Aussie Rules comparison was in terms of how a semi-pro is conditioned compared to a pro. While they're different sports, they're very similar in terms of how they're played, yet the "semi-pro" (yeah, I know they're amateur, but the best ones are conditioned like semi-pro athletes or better) and they are noticeably smaller than their counterparts.

I think smaller gene pool and lack of sunlight might have something to do with that
We're naturally not a very tall race of people.
And we naturally don't have the kind of weather we're experiencing now. It's very close!

[Charlie Darwin]

I think smaller gene pool and lack of sunlight might have something to do with that

They're not plants, Fixer. In fact, I don't think I'd be pushing the boat out too much to suggest one of the major differences would be the amount of inorganic compounds at play

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not at all. It was directed mainly at Ardeebhoy and others who dismiss the top players as not being good enough and that MON shouldn't bother going to matches.

But they're not and short of a major change in the coaching and admin structure of domestic league soccer plus a major cash injection, aren't likely to be...

How many weren't playing for Celtic? They are obviously far more than an SPL club.

Hibs, Dundee Utd, Motherwell iirc.
The point stands.
(see above)

[DannyInvincible]

I think smaller gene pool and lack of sunlight might have something to do with that
We're naturally not a very tall race of people.
And we naturally don't have the kind of weather we're experiencing now. It's very close!

We're not known to be that small a race of people, are we?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_h...ound_the_world

What has sunlight got to do with it though? Is potential vitamin D deficiency from lack of exposure to sunlight really that influential in discouraging height growth? It's possible for us Irish to get our vitamin D from other sources such as dairy products, eggs and some fish anyway.

Hibs, Dundee Utd, Motherwell iirc.

Who were the other Scottish-based players? Owen Coyle and Alan O'Brien are two further possibles I can think of. Was O'Brien at Hibs when he was called up? And although Coyle was at Bolton when he won his cap, I suppose he spent most of his career in Scotland, so maybe fair to include him, but I'm struggling to think of others besides the mainly-Celtic contingent mentioned above.

Other than Hibs' Mike Gallagher who played for us in 1954, there are no further Irish internationals mentioned on any of these articles outlining international players from the respective clubs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee_...tional_Players
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...land_.28FAI.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_F.C._players

Cillian Sheridan played for Celtic and Motherwell on loan, of course. I think he was still contracted to Celtic when he made his senior debut for us. And there would have been a few other Celtic internationals in older times as well, but that seems to be about it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah, if I'd properly read Charlie's post, rather than skimming through, I'd have comprehended the context of AB's post better. My bad, as they say.

Ah, sure you're forgiven!

Who were the other Scottish-based players? Owen Coyle and Alan O'Brien are two further possibles I can think of. Was O'Brien at Hibs when he was called up? And although Coyle was at Bolton when he won his cap, I suppose he spent most of his career in Scotland, so maybe fair to include him, but I'm struggling to think of others besides the mainly-Celtic contingent mentioned above.

Other than Hibs' Mike Gallagher who played for us in 1954, there are no further Irish internationals mentioned on any of these articles outlining international players from the respective clubs:

Cillian Sheridan played for Celtic and Motherwell on loan, of course. I think he was still contracted to Celtic when he made his senior debut for us. And there would have been a few other Celtic internationals in older times as well, but that seems to be about it.

Think you answered this previously in your own post. #952.
And am including players who weren't always full internationals but appeared at other levels.

[DannyInvincible]

And am including players who weren't always full internationals but appeared at other levels.

Ah, broadening the parameters (shifting the goal-posts) now?

League of Ireland players regularly feature in our under-age squads too though. I don't have the time to go checking through an immeasurable number of under-age squads down through the years right now, ha, but I would be genuinely surprised if significantly more Scottish-based players regularly featured in our under-age squads than Irish-based players.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but you'd expect more people up to the age of 18, when they go pro'.

The point still stands, the SPL currently is a higher standard...

[DannyInvincible]

Aye, but you'd expect more people up to the age of 18, when they go pro'.

The point still stands, the SPL currently is a higher standard...

Don't disagree with the general point - the SPL is undoubtedly of a higher standard - but beyond the age of 18 and between senior representation, the only other levels at which a player can participate would be under-19, under-21 and 'B' level. We've only ever played 14 'B' games since 1957, so, just to take the recent under-21s as a sample, squads over the past year and a half have featured four League of Ireland players (Daryl Horgan of Dundalk, Chris Forrester of St. Pat's, Barry McNamee of Derry and Danny Morrissey of Cork) whilst only one SPL-based player has featured; Joe Shaughnessy of Aberdeen. I'd imagine that's fairly indicative of the usual pattern, but I'm open to correction. Either way, I wouldn't say it's just fair to simply assume the SPL is better represented than the LOI throughout all Irish international levels. The insinuation is that the SPL is proven as a better breeding ground than the LOI for Irish internationals, but I don't think that's demonstrated to be the case. And besides senior Irish international players who've played for Celtic (who are a bit of a unique case in Scotland and are over-represented on our sides compared to other Scottish clubs), I don't think the difference between the two leagues in terms of international representation is that extreme.