Giles spoke about what the role of an assistant manager was under Matt Busby and Brian Clough (i.e. over 40 years ago). He then agreed with Dunphy. Dunphy agreed with Giles and had a complete volte face from his initial position and thought both were great appointments. Brady liked the appointment of O'Neill, wasn't enthusiastic at all about Keane and wondered what he would bring to the job and reminded Dunphy that he had sung similar praises about Trappatoni when he was appointed. Bill laughed.
All I could think of was when Giles said about Keane having been out of the game for two years and having learned from his mistakes:
Attachment 1967
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
the panel discussion is online here: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/813/485196/
Can anyone explain why Alex Bruce's pic is on the link for the squad announcement?
The Indians and South Asians do not consider the Swatzika in the same form as hitler had it, its been found on ancient scribes and drawings, but it has no context in the same form.
Similarly you cannot compare the Irish flag which is such a divisive thing on the Island of Ireland, with a large number of people, to some symbol.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
In the context of the cross, and the amount of Catholics the world over, i doubt at most a few thousand Lazio fans can be called a sizeable divisive number.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Widespread neo-Nazi and white-pride group use of the Celtic cross is well-known. It's one of their most popular symbols. In fact, its depiction can be prohibited within certain contexts in both Germany and Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_...Neo_Nazi_Usage
That was my point. Was it not you arguing that what you called a "black-and-white" symbol could only possess one meaning or connotation? And, of course there is a cross-over of context, even if Nazi theory was rather spurious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastik...mbol_of_NazismOriginally Posted by Wikipedia
Originally Posted by WikipediaWhy not? The Irish flag is a symbol, after all.Similarly you cannot compare the Irish flag which is such a divisive thing on the Island of Ireland, with a large number of people, to some symbol.
Meanwhile...
Football and politics, there; mixing...
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/11/2013 at 1:29 PM.
The context for Tet's reply is that celtic crosses are part of a symbolism of a culture dating back thousands of years, however, in recent history it has become a symbol used by fascist groups. In a similar vein, the swastika has been an important symbolic part of Eastern spiritual culture for thousands of years and in recent history has been used (in a modified form) by fascist groups.
I'm not sure where the confusion is, or why there is confusion more importantly.
The poppy, might be for some people a symbol of getting high, for a small minority. It doesn't really matter.
However my point is about the poppy a symbol of peace originally supposedly, not some ancient bloody meaning, its worn in the UK as a symbol of support to their Forces. It has no connotation or some link to anything else in the UK by a significant number of people to mean anything else, its pure and simple a symbol of support to the Armed Forces. Whether or not its meaning is peace or what not is irrelevant really, the symbol is a show of support to the British Armed Forces.
*Off topic - DI stop quoting, wikipedia for gods sake. I really don't like people who textbook learn, live the world, learn from people immersed in that culture. I'm pretty sure if you ask the average(educated Indian for example or Pakistani or Bangladeshi on the street about that symbol it will not pop into their head anything you throw up from wiki like above, it will relate to the WWII Nazis.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 07/11/2013 at 11:19 AM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
Only Skstu tried to get high on the poppy.
But what does "support" for the British Armed Forces even mean exactly? Even that can mean different things to different people. Does it mean support for their troops? Their memories? Their sacrifices? Their past wars? Their current wars? Their imperial pursuits? Their slaughters?... I'm not sure how whether or not its meaning is "peace or whatnot" is irrelevant. How could it not be? Isn't that the crux of the contention? For some it may represent hope for peace; for others, it represents thirst for war. For you, it represents support for the British Armed Forces, whatever that might entail. Just because you have that opinion, doesn't make it true for everyone.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't wear one myself due to its negative connotations with regard to Ireland and Irish history. Stutts, for example, obviously feels it possesses different connotations to how I might view it. That's his prerogative as a free-thinking individual. I highly doubt he sports one to celebrate imperial warmongering, whilst that is part of the reason I wouldn't wear one; because my circumstances have resulted in me viewing it differently. Perhaps one aspect of his wearing of it is in memory of Irish lives lost during the World Wars rather than it amounting to some explicit support for the British Armed Forces.
Apologies, I'll head out with my dictaphone next time. I was merely providing some basic context and background. Wiki's a pretty handy tool for info-searching when it's difficult to find such perspectives in the flesh.*Off topic - DI stop quoting, wikipedia for gods sake. I really don't like people who textbook learn, live the world, learn from people immersed in that culture. I'm pretty sure if you ask the average(educated Indian for example or Pakistani or Bangladeshi on the street about that symbol it will not pop into their head anything you throw up from wiki like above, it will relate to the WWII Nazis.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Of course your average south Asian immersed in Western culture will be more than aware of the Nazi connotations of the swastika and may well dismiss the conjectured association of the symbol by Nazi theorists with their part of the world as nothing more than crude b*stardisation. I've never been immersed in non-Western south Asian culture, so it would be hasty to assume what the thoughts of those from that culture might be, but they may well have feelings on what would be swastika's "true" symbolism. The swastika is used contemporarily in Asia, after all.
I'm not sure what exactly your point is though. Symbols can mean different things to different people, is all I'm arguing. Some will see "true" meanings where others see "twisted" meanings; it's all just a matter of one's perspective. Are we not in general agreement on that (with the exception of the poppy and its alleged unambiguous meaning by yourself)?
Well, of course, which just signifies the great myth under which they're sent off to fight.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/11/2013 at 2:23 PM.
My evidence is my experience in life, more so than not. I live life as a realist rather than what ifs or what I've read. And generally it has done me well. But if you think reading books is the only way to learn, good luck to you, each to their own. It's kinda the Sarah Palin way of learning geography read some books on culture and customs and think you understand the whole world.
Btw, isnt it the white poppy and not the red one which is the peace symbol anyway? Which completely nullifies the argument that it has many meanings for many different people(s).
The discussion stemmed(good one o hai?) out of something of symbolism related to the red poppy worn in the UK - which coincidentally factually is incorrect I think - and how it could symbolize different things to sizeable numbers of different people. I think we have proven it doesn't, it symbolises the same thing, but its interpretation or how it emotionally attaches to certain people is different.I'm not sure what exactly your point is though. Symbols can mean different things to different people, is all I'm arguing. Some will see "true" meanings where others see "twisted" meanings; it's all just a matter of one's perspective. Are we not in general agreement on that (with the exception of the poppy and its alleged unambiguous meaning by yourself)?
Last edited by paul_oshea; 07/11/2013 at 2:57 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
That's not what Peadar was saying at all.
No, it doesn't. I've outlined numerous different meanings or connotations it can have for different people.Btw, isnt it the white poppy and not the red one which is the peace symbol anyway? Which completely nullifies the argument that it has many meanings for many different people(s).
What "same thing" does it symbolise for everyone? You've failed to elaborate. Its possible or alleged symbolism is wholly derived from its subjective interpretation by whoever is doing the interpretation. I mean, some people might even claim it's not political but humanitarian rather.I think we have proven it doesn't, it symbolises the same thing, but its interpretation or how it emotionally attaches to certain people is different.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/11/2013 at 3:07 PM.
Paul, you're just rambling nonsense now.
My point was that symbols have different meanings to different people. Some symbols have very fixed meanings - like the Roman salute, the Nazi swastika - while others are far more open to interpretation, like the poppy which can be as innocent as "keep our boys safe" or as malignant as "kill those paddy facks". I'm not sure why you're so resistant to this basic concept and even more baffled by your resort to "life experience" to deflect from the fact you've talked yourself way into an argument you haven't really thought through.
No, because i live here, and i know what it symbolises, and that relates to my last point, you live in Ireland CD and read about it and what not, but don't really understand or have a clue yet you felt you could empathise with someone living in a country who wears it for whatever reasons, which we still dont know. Your point was nothing to do with symbols but understanding why someone living in a country would wear a poppy, thats how this all started!
My point hasnt changed CD, there may have been other offshoots, but its relative to what you posted originally. How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces, you never answered, just jumped back on an advanced original discussion now.
DI, if you took 10 people and showed them a picture, that picture might mean 7 different things for 7 people, and the same for 3. It means absoloutely nothing.
What Peadar was trying to say was that because I'm not backing up with wiki he wouldn't take any heed of my point. Thats his opinion and Im not too bothered about it, however he paints around it.
I'm also open to the point that I answer different posts at different times, not necessarily succintly either, because i dont have time to sit back and check over and formulate posts. I reply quickly so its probably a bit more confusing. I don't have time like you CD to quote on quote and all that crap :P Maybe to you becasue you cant understand it it comes across as nonsense
Last edited by paul_oshea; 07/11/2013 at 3:19 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
No, you live in England and you know what it symbolises to English people, although even so not everybody agrees. You're very correct that I live in a different country where the symbol has different connotations.No, because i live here, and i know what it symbolises
I said it's understandable that he doesn't see a reason not to wear a poppy. He didn't really elaborate on the "I live in England, etc" and I didn't push it, I just assumed he had his own reasons that were more nuanced than what he posted.How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces
Thanks Danny.
I'm here 14 years now. I started wearing one about 5 years ago. I felt it was more of a churlish statement not to wear one than it is a positive statement to wear one. If I lived in Ireland I probably wouldn't wear one. If I did I'd be making a strong message whereas here I think I'm simply making a passive gesture. (by here I mean London, not foot.ie!)
Most people wear them here without really over-thinking any of the potential political dimensions. Some UKIP heads and Tory nutjobs probably see it in a more malign sense.
The vast majority of people here that wear a poppy just see that historically British and other soldiers made great sacrifices to fend off totalitarianism or other badness. Of course, that's the nice explanation - WW1 was more about a land grab or a grab for influence and power when fault lines were fracturing in Europe and it was in the UK's interests to side with their allies. That doesn't matter though - kids were sent to a brutal death.
And of course many here were fed a diet of propaganda during The Troubles too. But still, at WW1 there was a tragic loss of young lives in a way that thank God none of our children will ever have to go through. Part of wearing a poppy is remembering that. I would say that my UK friends almost to a man - in fact including a soldier who served in NI - would agree that at Bloody Sunday and throughout the Troubles the army and their State acted terribly. But in light of the terror of the WW1 trenches and that so many kids are/were returning home from Afghanistan in boxes or missing limbs, whatever I feel about what happened in Ireland isn't enough for me not to show a little respect in the country I live in. If I lived in New York I wouldn't not take part in a passive mark of respect to those who died in the Twin Towers because of what the US did in Central and South America - which I happen to feel very strongly about.
The world is a messed up place. I can't think of any former colonist that hasn't got a dark past.
I think poppy wearing can be a little like football: generally pretty benign but gets hijacked for political expediency by some.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 07/11/2013 at 3:32 PM.
That's patently ridiculous, you're assuming that your interpretation of those experiences is correct, so anyone with a different viewpoint on the same experiences is wrong by default. The vast majority of learning is done through reading. Are you saying all of this is wrong, because the person involved didn't actively experience the Renaissance/American Revolution/World War II?
I live in England too, but what does that matter? I've seen all types of different people wearing poppies of late. Likewise, I've seen all types of different people not wearing poppies. There are a whole myriad of reasons as to why or why not, I'm sure. Aren't you the one, and not Charlie, jumping to judgment and conclusions? You think you know why everyone is wearing a poppy. Just because you might live near or amongst some wearers, and possibly may have spoken with some others, it doesn't give you any greater right to assume or insight into all wearers' motives.
Because it may have another meaning for that someone.How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces
It means that a symbol can mean different things to different people, no?DI, if you took 10 people and showed them a picture, that picture might mean 7 different things for 7 people, and the same for 3. It means absoloutely nothing.
That's not quite what he said either.What Peadar was trying to say was that because I'm not backing up with wiki he wouldn't take any heed of my point.
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