Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[bennocelt]

His tenure has been a disaster? Really. What could he have done any different with this team?
There are players in this team who have should have been got rid of while Trap was in charge. No new players were blooded and then O'Neill was left with a certain group he had to proceed with in order to try to gain qualification.
Make no mistake about it, Martin O'Neill is one of the best managers out there. His time at the helm of the Ireland team will not change that one jot.

And that is why he is talked about for the Leicester job! Thats about his level really, mid team EPL, nothing more.

[mark12345]

No I'm not saying that, and in fact I would point to Costa Rica in the last World Cup and the likes of Paraguay, Chile and Belgium more recently. But this particular group has not worked because of a lack of quality all over the pitch, starting with the most porous defence we have had in a long time. We need a complete overhaul from the bottom up and indeed from the top down if you consider Delaney. But casting aside the success that O'Neill and Keane have had as players and managers as some have done on here, and indeed their knowledge of the Irish players out there would be second to none, and also casting aside the success Trap had as a manager before he came to Ireland, is just wrong. They were successful people in their lives, our players (the current bunch) with one or two exceptions have not been. So the players bear a huge amount of responsibility is what I would say.

[Kingdom]

and indeed their knowledge of the Irish players out there would be second to none,

ding ding ding, he's out.

[mark12345]

Which is not a bad level really. No he doesn't have the profile of an Ancelotti, Mourinho or Guardiola, but he is still a brilliant manager. Taking a Celtic team all the way to the Uefa Cup and managing them to victories over the likes of Juventus and Barcelona was nothing short of phenomenal. Taking Leicester to Wembley (twice was it?) against the top tier teams of that era, was also something brilliant. He also played on the N. Ireland team which shocked the world at the 1982 World Cup. And are you forgetting that he played under arguably the best coach of modern times in English football in Brian Clough. So he has quite a pedigree.

[mark12345]

ding ding ding, he's out.

Logic please?

[Charlie Darwin]

honestly who do you think is out there who would improve our squad?

Well to bring it back to the question I was addressing, who was there that wasn't there 12 months previously when Trap was in charge? MON brought in Hoolahan very sparingly and has only recently come to have faith in him. He's struck the right balance in defence but made a strange decision to recall a 38 year old goalkeeper. The midfield is a bit of a basket case still. He's played 10 different strikers and still doesn't know which one he wants to pick. The squad has aged faster than the two years he's been in charge for, and it wasn't a young squad to begin with.

[Eminence Grise]

So he has quite a pedigree.

You say pedigree, I say Peter Princple.

[Kingdom]

I don't believe for a single second that Martin O'Neill's knowledge of the best Irish players in the UK is second to none. Simple. It's not.

The point I was trying to get you to see earlier was this. O'Neill's Celtic were a breath of fresh air because they were different. His 3-5-2 in Europe with Guppy and Agathe utilised the squad he had to its maximum. That arguably is the formation that would suit us best, and utilise the best players available to us.

He didn't bother his jacksie trying anything worthwhile despite a huge amount of lead-in time that he himself bemoaned.

And don't pull the line of playing under one of the best managers of all time lark either. His football at Leicester was deplorable dirge that made the most of the ferocity of Matty Elliot and gerry Taggart at the back, Savage, Izzet and Lennon in midfield and that lump Heskey up top. The only team of note they beat getting to the 2nd final was Leeds, on penalties. They beat Tranmere in the final ffs. The year before again the only "major" team they beat was Leeds.

His Celtic tenure was a success, no doubt about it, and his European adventure was impressive. That's 12 years ago, and tbh, it shows, because football has steadily improved, but it looks like O'Neill has stood still.

[mark12345]

You say pedigree, I say Peter Princple.

Elaborate please

[jbyrne]

Let Keane use the rest of the games as an audition - we're all but out of realistic contention anyway.

we are not out of contention at all. it cant be argued that we are out of contention given our current situation while at the same time expressing the belief that there are managers out there who would improve our results. a draw at home to Germany and a win away to Poland should not be beyond such a manager

[mark12345]

I don't believe for a single second that Martin O'Neill's knowledge of the best Irish players in the UK is second to none. Simple. It's not.

The point I was trying to get you to see earlier was this. O'Neill's Celtic were a breath of fresh air because they were different. His 3-5-2 in Europe with Guppy and Agathe utilised the squad he had to its maximum. That arguably is the formation that would suit us best, and utilise the best players available to us.

He didn't bother his jacksie trying anything worthwhile despite a huge amount of lead-in time that he himself bemoaned.

And don't pull the line of playing under one of the best managers of all time lark either. His football at Leicester was deplorable dirge that made the most of the ferocity of Matty Elliot and gerry Taggart at the back, Savage, Izzet and Lennon in midfield and that lump Heskey up top. The only team of note they beat getting to the 2nd final was Leeds, on penalties. They beat Tranmere in the final ffs. The year before again the only "major" team they beat was Leeds.

His Celtic tenure was a success, no doubt about it, and his European adventure was impressive. That's 12 years ago, and tbh, it shows, because football has steadily improved, but it looks like O'Neill has stood still.

Maybe time has passed him by in the game, but if that indeed is a factor it is just negligible. He was involved up to a few years ago. And my point about knowledge of Irish players being second to none was that the combined force of Keane and O'Neill's knowledge of the Irish players out there would have been second to none (on the international stage) in my opinion. After all didn't we all bemoan Trap's lack of knowledge about the players available to him and didn't we say that he didn't attend enough matches. O'Neill and Keane were a vast improvement on that score. I don't disagree completely with your earlier point but I do have a problem with you dismissing his time under Clough so easily.

[Eminence Grise]

Deleted - didn't quote mark12345 and new posts popped in between.

[Eminence Grise]

Elaborate please

Sorry - thought the Peter Principle was a well-known concept. Managers are promoted because they do a job well, but will eventually find their level of incompetence with promotion to a job that is beyond them. It's not necessarily that they are incompetent, but, for example, that trends overtake the knowledge or skills that made them a success in the past - where their pedigree was shaped. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/peter-principle.asp has a bit more on it.

[mark12345]

Well to bring it back to the question I was addressing, who was there that wasn't there 12 months previously when Trap was in charge? MON brought in Hoolahan very sparingly and has only recently come to have faith in him. He's struck the right balance in defence but made a strange decision to recall a 38 year old goalkeeper. The midfield is a bit of a basket case still. He's played 10 different strikers and still doesn't know which one he wants to pick. The squad has aged faster than the two years he's been in charge for, and it wasn't a young squad to begin with.

"He's struck the right balance in defence"
Nothing but nothing could be further from the truth. That is where our problems begin and end, and indeed if someone wanted to aim missiles at O'Neill and Keane, they could very easily start there.

[mark12345]

Sorry - thought it was a well-known concept. Managers are promoted because they do a job well, but will eventually find their level of incompetence with promotion to a job that is beyond them. It's not necessarily that they are incompetent, but, for example, that trends overtake the knowledge or skills that made them a success in the past - where their pedigree was shaped. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/peter-principle.asp has a bit more on it.

It is possible that the game has passed MON by slightly, but as stated in an earlier post, such margins in his case, if they exist at all, are negligible. It depends on what we are talking about here. The 'Game' encompasses a lot of things and if we are comparing the Real Madrid / Barcelona / Germany / Brazil / Argentina level then I don't think we can apply that in this case. If we are talking more about our own level then I think Martin O'Neill was quite a good appointment under the circumstances. Failure has reared its ugly head however under his watch, but as Einstein said craziness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have continued with hiring high profile managers in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change from the bottom up is long overdue

[Crosby87]

The parade is in full swing here chaps. We just threw paper at Carli and Tobin, both of our greatest state. I wish you chaps could experience the joy of sports success even one time. There's free hotdogs! Or as Stutts calls them weiners.

[mark12345]

The parade is in full swing here chaps. We just threw paper at Carli and Tobin, both of our greatest state. I wish you chaps could experience the joy of sports success even one time. There's free hotdogs! Or as Stutts calls them weiners.

How's the weather in Jersey?

[Kingdom]

Martin O'Neill won an awful lot as a player.
Martin O'Neill did play under one of the greatest managers the English game has seen
Martin O'Neill brought great success to Leicester, brought good success to Celtic, and comparable success to Wycombe.
Martin O'Neill's teams brought great determination and character to the field of play.

Martin O'Neill's teams have not played superb expansive football
Martin O'Neill has often been referred to as a great orator, and a great man-manager
Martin O'Neill's appointed coaches at club level have often been lauded by players for their innovation on the training field.
Martin O'Neill, like Brian Clough, was not lauded for his innovation on the training field, but his presence on the training field.

Giovanni Trappatoni took Ireland from our lowest ebb of modern times, and made us an extremely tough outfit to beat, even if the football was horrific. He went through one campaign unbeaten, and another campaign with one defeat.
Giovanni Trappatoni was on significant salary but due to the involvement in Euro2012, arguably earned that wage.
Giovanni Trappatoni stayed one campaign too long.

Under O'Neill, Ireland's squad is weaker.
Under O'Neill, Ireland have regressed tactically, defensively, offensively.
Under O'Neill, Ireland have not had value for money.

Leicester are welcome to him.

John Delaney needs to man up. Enough with the populist managers, and enough with ceding responsibility to managerial committees. Delaney needs to analyse what can be classified as success stories in modern-day football, and the conditions that made those teams a success. Tactics, coaching, innovation, luck, player pools. Not in the Uk, Not in Scotland, but in Europe. I could present the FAI with a dossier with that info given a few weeks and a few grand.


We're hung up appointing managers/coaches that know the "English" game. Knowing the English game isn't worth jacksheet when we'll be playing at least one Eastern team, one central European team and probably a Nordic team. Knowing the European game is important. Identifying a way to be effective against our peers, and identifying the players to do that is important.

And it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't agree we've regressed tactically. He's made necessary changes Trap was unprepared to make.

[Kingdom]

It is possible that the game has passed MON by slightly, but as stated in an earlier post, such margins in his case, if they exist at all, are negligible. It depends on what we are talking about here. The 'Game' encompasses a lot of things and if we are comparing the Real Madrid / Barcelona / Germany / Brazil / Argentina level then I don't think we can apply that in this case. If we are talking more about our own level then I think Martin O'Neill was quite a good appointment under the circumstances. Failure has reared its ugly head however under his watch, but as Einstein said craziness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have continued with hiring high profile managers in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change from the bottom up is long overdue

I really and truly do not understand a single bit of the above. I'm trying to read between the lines.

You are saying that is marginal if European football has bypassed MON's philosophy.

Why would we be comparing the elite club and elite national teams with ROI?
You could argue that generally you could combine pots 2,3 & 4 and there is not a great deal of difference from 90% of those teams. Our peers. But if we're talking about our peers, then you need to look at how much money Scotland pay Strachan, Poland pay Workowski, Czech's pay Vrba, Turkey pay Terim, Ukraine pay Formenko and so on and so forth, and it's then that you conclude if MON is a brilliant appointment for the money we're paying, and it just cannot be claimed that it is.
Conditions change regularily in football, and as is alluded elsewhere, some benefit, some lose out.

You say:

We have continued with hiring high profile managers in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change from the bottom up is long overdue

I say we've continued to hire the same style of manager in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change is long overdue

Martin O'Neill, for a footballing country like Ireland, with our economic state, earns a disgusting amount of money for the job he performs. No different to our CEO. The money paid to hire the present management team is ridiculous, and totally unnecessary.