Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Fixer82]

WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agreed jb!!

Were you impressed by the Irish performance at the same venue a few days later? Probably the most like for like?

In hindsight though, I'd almost have preferred if Monkeano had used a smaller group of players in early summer and used the 3 weeks to get ideas across. Although the tour probably ruled several players out of serious contention, a bit of foresight and conviction might have done this anyway.

Still, Oman, Georgia (not a gimme, I accept) and Gibraltar are still to be played before the first crunch games. By then we should be much further down the road.

We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe I have to spell it out more clearly
In 2008 Euro qualifiers there were 7 groups, we finished a clear 3rd. That makes 21 teams, 2 hosts, and there would have been one play off (as there was in 1996) to find the last team. In a 24 team Euros in 2008, we would have qualified with Stan at the helm.
Nowadays, what Stan dismally managed to achieve has become a difficult big target.

One slight problem;there weren't 24 qualifiers in Euro'08...

[Stuttgart88]

Agreed jb!!



We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.

Scotland drew 2-2 with a Nigeria team that were being paid to lose

[back of the net]

Looks like USA are coming to Lansdowne road on November 18th

[Stuttgart88]

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day

I thought we were good in the first half especially after they scored.

When we played Germany at home under Trap I was in Slattery's early and they were showing the Ibaraki game in full. The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it. Germany could have won that game 3-0 even though we played well for long periods, especially in immediate response to Klose's goal.

It wasn't how I remembered the game but seeing it again on telly without the emotion and tension changed my view of it. Our first chance in the second half was about two minutes before we scored, Kahn making a good block from Keane, at close range.

[jbyrne]

we well well deserved that draw against germany in 02. i turned to the person beside me in the stand 2 mins before we scored and we both agreed if there was any justice we would get the equaliser.

here are the basic stats for what its worth:

Corners (1st half)
G 0
I 1
Corners (2nd half)
G 2
I 1
Fouls committed
G 18
I 21
Shots on target
G 6
I 5
Shots Off Target
G 7
I 6
Caught Offside
G 5
I 4

[Fixer82]

The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it.

I think it was the same chance. Jancker was useless in that tournament.

i remember Matt Holland almost scoring a carbon copy of his Cameroon goal in the first half

[Stuttgart88]

Jb, if there was a stat for near calamitous defensive ****-ups too, we'd have probably out scored Germany by at least one, maybe two!

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

None of this is to say that we should just hope for the best. Without proper structures in place in all aspects of our game we are simply preparing to fail, as others have put it. At the very least we should be aiming to be competitive. Let the luck follow.

[jbyrne]

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

of course. and if the ref had given us the stone wall aldridge (and/or galvin?) pen v USSR in euro 88 we may have gone to the semis. but i agree with your point

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

agree 2002 was our best wc performance

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

have always taken this line and got savage abuse for it at times!

[bennocelt]

As I am too lazy to look it up but in 1994 we played a truly dire game against Norway, with a predictable 0-0 result. It was shocking stuff. If we had went for the win would we have avoided Holland?

[mark12345]

I agree. Qualification is the big target. Then we reboot and focus on the tournament proper.

I think some historic perspective is needed. I think we have deluded ourselves in some respects given how we had a good record getting out of groups.

Euro 88: some great performances but still "only" 4 points. 3rd in group.
WC90: two ok performances, one awful performance, two resolute / competitive performances. Nothing on a par with Hannover though. Two goals scored, both from opposition mistakes. No games won after 90 or 120 minutes.
WC94: one great performance, one ok and two muck. Two goals scored, one game in four won.
WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.
Eur12: 3 defeats. One for, lots against. Caveat being it was a very hard group.

I'm not trying to revise downwards the appreciation of what went before, just trying to show that even in our heyday we found it hard to impress on the big stage. It's hard and this World Cup showed how the second-placed European teams struggled. Only France did well and they're not your typical European second seed.

Qualify, hope for a good draw, play well, get some luck and only then is progress beyond group stage feasible I reckon.

One common denominator in all of the above - we are a very attack minded team and have absolutely no problem scoring goals.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Scotland drew 2-2 with a Nigeria team that were being paid to lose

Even if that were true, how do you explain all their other results? WGS bribed the oppo' or went for the 'ginger sympathy' card...

[BonnieShels]

As I am too lazy to look it up but in 1994 we played a truly dire game against Norway, with a predictable 0-0 result. It was shocking stuff. If we had went for the win would we have avoided Holland?

We would have finished top by two points and then played Bulgaria in the next round.

Incidentally Italy who finished third played Nigeria in the second round.

[Crosby87]

Lebron James to played in Cleveland again.

[bennocelt]

We would have finished top by two points and then played Bulgaria in the next round.

Incidentally Italy who finished third played Nigeria in the second round.

Yeah looked it up, tbh I dont think we wud have beaten those two, Bulgaria were great in that world cup, and Nigeria were very close to knocking out Italy

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, four years earlier maybe...the travelling and heat did for the Irish in USA'94 iirc.

[paul_oshea]

I thought we were good in the first half especially after they scored.

When we played Germany at home under Trap I was in Slattery's early and they were showing the Ibaraki game in full. The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it. Germany could have won that game 3-0 even though we played well for long periods, especially in immediate response to Klose's goal.

It wasn't how I remembered the game but seeing it again on telly without the emotion and tension changed my view of it. Our first chance in the second half was about two minutes before we scored, Kahn making a good block from Keane, at close range.

stutts I can't recall individuals at this stage but we could definitely have been down 3 0 in that game and lost by the same scoreline.we played well in parts without creating anything.I always felt germany thought they could just do enough to win and were happy to sit back on the lead but we got them on a sucker punch.

I also thought against Spain we could have been 2 or 3 down in the first 20+ mins but once they scored they sat back and we started to dominate.good teams back then seemed a lot happier to do that I don't think they would do it now.

against cameroon we didn't do an awful lot either

I actually think that all the luck Mccarthy didn't get in all those playoffs and last minute goals and shock results all came together in the world cup and got us vital goals at vital times...not just luck but ye know what I mean.

[paul_oshea]

Lebron James to played in Cleveland again.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/11/leb...land-cavaliers

[DannyInvincible]

I actually think that all the luck Mccarthy didn't get in all those playoffs and last minute goals and shock results all came together in the world cup and got us vital goals at vital times...not just luck but ye know what I mean.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean?