Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Fixer82]

Where did it go wrong for O’Neill?

We left the Euros full of hope, having played well, with heart and skill.

Did key, influential players leave the panel since (Given, Keane, Hoolahan, McGeady, Whelan, Murphy, O’Shea)?

He can’t be doing that much different to what he did two summers ago.

Personally, I think it’s a mix of being in transition, certain players (Hendrick, Arter) not stepping up enough and probably younger, academy coached players coming through not understanding O’Neill’s old school approach.

Either way, we are DIRE and a change in management is probably the only thing that will turn it around.

[brine3]

To this day I think Israel away and that late equaliser was a Sliding Doors moment in Irish football.

I thought we were unlucky at home to Israel and their cnut of a goalkeeper.

Yes, we get the points against Israel, we win the group and qualify for the World Cup outright, no playoffs.

Kerr sticks around for another campaign or two. Stan never appointed manager, and hence Trap never appointed to clean up Stan's mess.

But the langers would still have appointed O'Neill at some stage so not sure how sliding doors a moment it would have been. Hoolahan might have ended up with twice as many caps, though.

However, one thing I don't understand is that whenever Kenny is brought up people say, "Ah, but Kerr." Are we to tar all LOI managers with the same brush? One thing about Kerr, he does drone on and on a lot. I can see that annoying the players after a while. Kenny is more concise and to the point when he talks. They are two completely different managers, to be honest. What they both are not though, are spoofers looking for a big pay check.

[osarusan]

As O'Neill and Keane stay longer in the job with performances and results getting worse, the standard of club that would be interested in hiring either of them gets lower.

I don't think they are doing themselves any favours in a way. Chris Coleman probably had the right idea - get out after a poor campaign while the memories of a good one are still somewhat fresh, and your reputation isn't so badly tarnished (although that didn't work out for him).

[DeLorean]

Kerr had no problem to gain the respect of star players like Roy Keane and others. I doubt if Kenny would have any hassle with feeling he had to earn the respect of current 'star' players with the likes of Burnley.

Keane played amazing football under McCarthy despite openly admitting, repeatedly, that he had no respect for him. He was just a quality player who set his own standards. We don't really know how much respect he had or didn't have for Kerr, it suited him to talk up anybody taking over from McCarthy. After his relationship with Alex Ferguson broke down, he claimed the Brian Clough was "without a doubt" the best manager he ever worked under, even though Forest were relegated with a whimper in his relatively short time playing under him.

Our current group are in far more need of inspiration. Maybe Kenny is the ideal man to provide that, or maybe he would be completely out of his depth. It'd be interesting to find out.

[Stuttgart88]

That's why I'm leaning towards Mick. Albeit with better players, he took over a team in decline, re-jigged things at a sensible pace, was imaginative with selections, promoted players on their potential rather than their club league position etc. Sure he made some incomprehensible errors too but he changed the way we played and was a leader, a motivator. He is 16 years more experienced now and is well capable of working with Championship quality players.

I really hope Kenny gets the gig longer term, or one of the more inspiring Mick-era players. I hope Reid or Carsley gets the U21 gig.

[tetsujin1979]

Martin O'Neill is the first Ireland manager to fail to score in four consecutive games - Trapattoni(twice), Staunton, McCarthy, Charlton, Hand all went three games without scoring

Under Hand, the team did go four games without scoring, but two of those, against a Japanese University XI. and Internacional, are not recognised as full internationals

The current record for consecutive games without scoring is five, the last two games of Charlton's reign (v Portugal and Netherlands) and the first three of McCarthy's time in change (v Russia, Czech Republic, and Portugal). The run was ended in a 2-2 draw with Croatia on Sunday, 2nd June 1996, Keith O'Neill and a late equaliser from Niall Quinn.

The longest run of games where Ireland scored is 17, and has been achieved twice - from a 1-0 win against Luxembourg in March 1954 until a 4-0 loss to Czechoslovakia in May 1959, and from a 2-1 loss to Scotland in May 2000 until a 1-0 defeat to Iran in November 2001

[brine3]

I really hope Kenny gets the gig longer term, or one of the more inspiring Mick-era players. I hope Reid or Carsley gets the U21 gig.

Steven Reid? Great player and intelligent midfielder. Would love to see him go on to be a top manager. He deserves it after spending most of his career in the treatment room.

[Diggs246]

Keane had made a forward surge, Kilbane did not follow up to give support, Keane lost the ball, Kerr gestured and shouted to Kilbane that he should have supported Keane. I'm pretty sure Kilbane did not turn around and say "we know what we are doing Brian". Other wild interpretations of Kerr's instruction to Kilbane was that he was exhorting him not to go forward, as in don't take risks. I'm sure Chris took notes and recorded the incident on his clipboard.

What did Kilbane say back to Kerr then?, If you remember this from 15 years ago, there must be more to it then a manager asking a player to get forward

[Diggs246]

Martin O'Neill is the first Ireland manager to fail to score in four consecutive games - Trapattoni(twice), Staunton, McCarthy, Charlton, Hand all went three games without scoring

Under Hand, the team did go four games without scoring, but two of those, against a Japanese University XI. and Internacional, are not recognised as full internationals

The current record for consecutive games without scoring is five, the last two games of Charlton's reign (v Portugal and Netherlands) and the first three of McCarthy's time in change (v Russia, Czech Republic, and Portugal). The run was ended in a 2-2 draw with Croatia on Sunday, 2nd June 1996, Keith O'Neill and a late equaliser from Niall Quinn.

The longest run of games where Ireland scored is 17, and has been achieved twice - from a 1-0 win against Luxembourg in March 1954 until a 4-0 loss to Czechoslovakia in May 1959, and from a 2-1 loss to Scotland in May 2000 until a 1-0 defeat to Iran in November 2001

I watched the game in my local and it was just me and my mate in the whole pub watching, it no one cared …" were all part of Jackies army…."

[Stuttgart88]

What did Kilbane say back to Kerr then?, If you remember this from 15 years ago, there must be more to it then a manager asking a player to get forward

I think older posters like Geysir and I can remember every moment, every pass, every comment from 15-30 years ago but can't remember who we played last week!

[dr_peepee]

Hah!!! Snap. That’s gas. I was only saying the same thing the other day.

[brine3]

I think older posters like Geysir and I can remember every moment, every pass, every comment from 15-30 years ago but can't remember who we played last week!

I have the same problem. Which is ironic, because it's not like there are many passes to remember in the case of an O'Neill side.

[Kingdom]

What is the general view here on the 3-5-2 or whatever formation we have been playing? I know it's the vogue formation in the Premier League now and perhaps if we had Declan Rice or a similar calibre defensive midfielder we could make it work, but I actually believe it is a key part in our team's dysfunction.

While some players may play in that system at club level I would say they are still the exception rather than the rule. If the preparation is as basic as we've been led to believe, I think 3-5-2 is not a formation conducive to players figuring out on their own like a 4-4-2/4-5-1/4-4-1-1 that is more self evident.

There are many ways to play with a 3-5-2 but the worst way is when your wingbacks play with fear and sit as fullbacks, and you end up with a 5-3-2 against inferior opposition, which we did last night.

A form of 352 is my preferred formation, always has been, always will be, not just for Ireland but most teams I've an interest in. I think it's especially relevant now, purely because of the attack orientation of most players, but also the lack of quality centre-backs. That last sentence might not make sense on the surface, but I'll try to flesh it out.

My grá for the formation came from a time when 4-4-2 was the rigid formation, with two central strikers. Having the sweeper allowed for that bit of extra cover for the high press and the ball over the top, but also gives a comfortable footballer the option of pushing out just in front also, as a DM or holding midfielder tends to do.

But at the moment, when most sides tend to play one central striker, and with goalkeepers generally sweeping up behind, I think there's an alternative to the view of the 352 system, and it essentially involves full-backs as 2 of the 3 defenders, with a single stopper in the middle. Also I believe it gives a team more potential to be fluid within a game, depending on the opposition and how a game pans out. That might sound a bit wishy-washy, but I'm a firm believer that you pick either your best 11 players and find a system to suit them, or you pick your preferred system, and fill it with the best player for each position and not necessarily the best 11 players.

So a couple of things that I feel is fair to share. I hand on heart dislike James McClean. He's reckless, a nasty bugger and he'll do serious damage to himself, to an opponent or to us before his career is over. However, he's an absolute specimen of an athlete, has a very decent left foot, and when he's cool, he's a very decent crosser of a ball. Plus he has an eye for a goal. Unfortunately, either he doesn't understand his role playing wing-back, or the management team haven't explained it properly or don't know themselves what they expect of the position.
Another is that I don't really think there is the scope to play two out and out strikers in the system in the modern game. I think there is the scope to have one striker and one roving playmaker type - or depending on the opposition (Germany for example) an authorised man-marker to drop a little deeper and sit on Kroos constantly. That's the other admission, I love a man-marker, and we don't utilise one, and for the life of me I cannot understand why. We defend in stupid numbers, deeply, without anyone marking specific players. If we're conceding the pitch, and we're conceding possession, the least we can do is assign a man-marker to the opposition play-maker to properly make life-difficult.

To be clear, I'll draw out how I see the formation working for us:

------------------------------GK---------------------------
---------------RCB- ---------CB----------LCB-----------
----------------------------- DM---------------------------
----RWB-------------------------------------------LWB---
-----------------RCM------------------LCM--------------
-----------------------------10---------------------------
---------------------------- ST----------------------------

[Kingdom]

Fortunately I've taken most of my ramblings on the Irish team to a small whatsapp group and spared the rest of you, but I believe it's imperative that we find a way of accommodating both Coleman and Doherty, rather than Coleman and Christie. A number of months ago, I suggested that to maximise both that I'd play Seamus as the Right sided defender of the 3, and Doherty at wing-back. Ireland seem to have a policy whereby the channel defenders take the throw-ins to a particular point in their own half (about 25yds seems to be the mark). It's guaranteed that we give the ball away because recently the lads taking the throw ins aren't particulartly good at them, or at receiving the ball under pressure. Additionally when you consider its not a specific marking role - unless you're playing a top seed that plays three attacking players (of whom the channel attackers are attackers rather than strikers) then there isn't really the excuse of playing Seamus out of position. It also means that when the channel defenders in the system get the ball, their natural inclination is to attack the space and get forward either in that inside channel or to push it out to the line. Let's be honest, it's not a strong point of Shane Duffy's and it's pretty easy to snuff out at the moment.

When we don't actually work on set-pieces, we lose the competitive gain that we should have with a Shane Duffy type, as managers know it's our only trick and crowd him out, it's pretty easy to do, and even easier when the delivery is ****. I've been very impressed with John Egan for a long-time, and he's played it safe with some of his transfers, opting for guaranteed football rather than bigger moves; calculated transfers you might say, and I wouldn't allow that to prevent my opinion of him staying good.

The other option I'd have is Ciaran Clark. he's capable on the ball, he's not the worst defender in the world and he gives balance on that side, probably a bit more than Kevin long does to be fair. He's experience at playing in the left full back slot too, so similar to Seamus he wouldn't be detrimental in the side.
In front of them, doing the Glenn role would be Shaun Williams. I think he's a smart footballer, not fussy, goes about his business well, and is a great lad for breaking up play and recycling the ball. We've missed that. The wing-backs pick themselves. Doherty is on for PL team of the season in a team that keeps the ball on the deck and moves quickly. He should start there for us. Stevens is doing likewise for a good Blades side. Personally I'd high hopes for Greg last year after a great season with Preston, but he just doesn't seem to have the rub of the green.
The beauty about the about that 5 in my opinion is that it quite easily can become a flat 4 (Coleman, Egan, Clark, FB) with Williams in front, or an alternative 3, with Egan and Clark either side of Williams sitting much deeper, with Coleman and FB pushed out as wing-backs, and utilising Doherty almost as an inside right attacker.

The midfield is the hardest part for me to flesh out. There are two reasons for this. One, I don't think the current manager has been fair to some of our lesser-capped midfielders, picking them in unsuitable roles, or in unsuitable formations. If for example Conor Hourihane has excelled in the 8 roving midfield position, why pick him as the left of a defensive 2?
If Jeff Hendrick plays club as the tip of a diamond 3, then why play him as a sitter? it doesn't work that way anymore. It doesn't get the best from the system and it doesn't get the best from the players. We miss a goal threat from the centre of the pitch. We also miss retention of the ball, and a bit of ingenuity. I always thought Alan Judge would take up the Wes mantle seamlessly, but his club career is in the pits and his fitness is off. otherwise I'd find a place for him, probably at the expense of Alan Browne below. David mcgoldrick is that kind of mellow footballer that you need at 10; his Irish career has stuttered. He deserves a chance.

The last problem is up top. I don't rate Hogan, and don't want him anywhere near my Irish team. Robinson has been good, but again he's not a 9 which the team needs, but is good at running in behind. Maguire looks the real deal, is quick, but also hasn't really got a proper run at it for us.

I've seen some crazy suggestions about Troy Parrott recently. I'm not sure if many have watched him, but he's not a striker. He's an attacker, but not a 9. And not Obafemi either. Glad that he's on board, but that's a nonsense call up of the highest order. I'm not advocating starting him, but who I would very much advocate calling up is Adam Idah. He's not as prolific as he should be, but he's got something about him. He creates chances, he gets chances. He's tall and well able to handle himself, despite being slender. And he's confident as ****. He should be around the squad now. That said I'd have no issues with either O'Brien or Cillian Sheridan being given the 9 jersey. O'Brien has worked off absolutely no service, and deserves to play in a team on the front foot.
The reason I'd consider Sheridan is that I think we should consider lads who actually are used to playing against the type of players that we'll be playing against in qualifiers.....Europeans! He's not prolific either, but he's a skilful lump, and he'll hold onto the ball - something that doesn't happen now.

And just for the record, I'm not dismissing domestic based players. Duffy, McEleney, Sadlier and Hoban should all be considered. They are by no means worse than some of the filler already there.

------------------------------GK---------------------------
-----------Coleman- -------Egan----------Clark-----------
---------------------------Williams---------------------------
Doherty Cunningham/Stevens
------------------Browne--------------Brady--------------
--------------Robinson/McGoldrick/Crowley---------------
---------------------------- Maguire/O'Brien---------------

I know I'll get slated for the above left , particularly not having Duffy, Hendrick, Brady or McClean in the team, but to be very honest I don't think they deserve to be in any Irish team on merit at the moment. I'm a big believer in setting your team out with instructions to play the game specifically. If the team doesn't carry out your instructions, you replace the player, regardless of his calibre. If your team carry out your instructions, and they fail to play well while doing all that was asked of them, then you need to be replaced. I'm assuming the players are not carrying out the managers instructions, therefore some need to be replaced.

That's too long for now, will happily come back to it if needs be.

[sidewayspasser]

Not much, one might say - but wait:

- Both were offered contract extensions when timing was questionable (MON before the outcome of the World Cup qualifying campaign was clear, Löw a few weeks before the World Cup proper)
- Both failed spectacularly shortly afterwards (MON getting hammered by Denmark in the Playoffs, Löw exiting the World Cup bottom of their group)
- In both cases, people in their national FAs didn't have the balls to fire them
- Both of them took weeks before they decided that they would not resign
- Both have now played a poor Nations League campaign, getting themselves relegated each with two points out of four games

And somehow I suspect that both will remain in charge for the Euro qualifiers...

[Kingdom]

The ultimate failing with Kerr was he wanted to do the job. And by that I mean he didn't want to leave any stone underturned, a Joe Schmidt mindset you can say. For the players, the international games are a break from "work".

Think Kenny would face the same culture Kerr encountered.

Agree 100pc. Richard Dunne admitted as much when Kerr left. Lets not pretend Kerr's days were great, they're weren't, but they weren't **** either, and it's important to remember that it bloody hurt him when his "kids" as they've fondly been called the past fortnight, didn't give him 100pc.

Also its important to remmebr in the context of gary Doherty and Robbie Keane, that Robbie Keane's club career had stalled. He was coming from a period in his club career where he wasn't seeing game time as much with Leeds, and I'd hazard a guess that it was probably his worst period of goals in an Ireland shirt.
Also worth remembering that his link-up play at that time wasn't that good, certainly not as good as it was later on.

[Kingdom]

Personally Id like to see Kenny have another go "Across the Water". Id have no doubt he would be sucessful, especially when you see what Paul Cook has done.

Why? What has he to gain from milling around the backwaters of league 1 and 2 at his age, after all he's achieved with Dundalk at home and in Europe. To be told by mercenary pros who haven't an ounce of technical ability to do one when he has to drop them. to hell with that. If Kenny wanted a job at a European ambitious club in a mid-tier European league, and got an agent to spread the word, he'd have his pick. Guaranteed.
That or the 21s gig, and the way it's set up with a limited enough playing pool, for an established manager like him, I don't believe the 21s is the right step,

[TrapAPony]

At least Löw's tactics involve Germany trying to score. Martin O'Neill has us playing septic football altogether.

[SkStu]

Fortunately I've taken most of my ramblings on the Irish team to a small whatsapp group and spared the rest of you, but I believe it's imperative that we find a way of accommodating both Coleman and Doherty, rather than Coleman and Christie. A number of months ago, I suggested that to maximise both that I'd play Seamus as the Right sided defender of the 3, and Doherty at wing-back. Ireland seem to have a policy whereby the channel defenders take the throw-ins to a particular point in their own half (about 25yds seems to be the mark). It's guaranteed that we give the ball away because recently the lads taking the throw ins aren't particulartly good at them, or at receiving the ball under pressure. Additionally when you consider its not a specific marking role - unless you're playing a top seed that plays three attacking players (of whom the channel attackers are attackers rather than strikers) then there isn't really the excuse of playing Seamus out of position. It also means that when the channel defenders in the system get the ball, their natural inclination is to attack the space and get forward either in that inside channel or to push it out to the line. Let's be honest, it's not a strong point of Shane Duffy's and it's pretty easy to snuff out at the moment.

When we don't actually work on set-pieces, we lose the competitive gain that we should have with a Shane Duffy type, as managers know it's our only trick and crowd him out, it's pretty easy to do, and even easier when the delivery is ****. I've been very impressed with John Egan for a long-time, and he's played it safe with some of his transfers, opting for guaranteed football rather than bigger moves; calculated transfers you might say, and I wouldn't allow that to prevent my opinion of him staying good.

The other option I'd have is Ciaran Clark. he's capable on the ball, he's not the worst defender in the world and he gives balance on that side, probably a bit more than Kevin long does to be fair. He's experience at playing in the left full back slot too, so similar to Seamus he wouldn't be detrimental in the side.
In front of them, doing the Glenn role would be Shaun Williams. I think he's a smart footballer, not fussy, goes about his business well, and is a great lad for breaking up play and recycling the ball. We've missed that. The wing-backs pick themselves. Doherty is on for PL team of the season in a team that keeps the ball on the deck and moves quickly. He should start there for us. Stevens is doing likewise for a good Blades side. Personally I'd high hopes for Greg last year after a great season with Preston, but he just doesn't seem to have the rub of the green.
The beauty about the about that 5 in my opinion is that it quite easily can become a flat 4 (Coleman, Egan, Clark, FB) with Williams in front, or an alternative 3, with Egan and Clark either side of Williams sitting much deeper, with Coleman and FB pushed out as wing-backs, and utilising Doherty almost as an inside right attacker.

The midfield is the hardest part for me to flesh out. There are two reasons for this. One, I don't think the current manager has been fair to some of our lesser-capped midfielders, picking them in unsuitable roles, or in unsuitable formations. If for example Conor Hourihane has excelled in the 8 roving midfield position, why pick him as the left of a defensive 2?
If Jeff Hendrick plays club as the tip of a diamond 3, then why play him as a sitter? it doesn't work that way anymore. It doesn't get the best from the system and it doesn't get the best from the players. We miss a goal threat from the centre of the pitch. We also miss retention of the ball, and a bit of ingenuity. I always thought Alan Judge would take up the Wes mantle seamlessly, but his club career is in the pits and his fitness is off. otherwise I'd find a place for him, probably at the expense of Alan Browne below. David mcgoldrick is that kind of mellow footballer that you need at 10; his Irish career has stuttered. He deserves a chance.

The last problem is up top. I don't rate Hogan, and don't want him anywhere near my Irish team. Robinson has been good, but again he's not a 9 which the team needs, but is good at running in behind. Maguire looks the real deal, is quick, but also hasn't really got a proper run at it for us.

I've seen some crazy suggestions about Troy Parrott recently. I'm not sure if many have watched him, but he's not a striker. He's an attacker, but not a 9. And not Obafemi either. Glad that he's on board, but that's a nonsense call up of the highest order. I'm not advocating starting him, but who I would very much advocate calling up is Adam Idah. He's not as prolific as he should be, but he's got something about him. He creates chances, he gets chances. He's tall and well able to handle himself, despite being slender. And he's confident as ****. He should be around the squad now. That said I'd have no issues with either O'Brien or Cillian Sheridan being given the 9 jersey. O'Brien has worked off absolutely no service, and deserves to play in a team on the front foot.
The reason I'd consider Sheridan is that I think we should consider lads who actually are used to playing against the type of players that we'll be playing against in qualifiers.....Europeans! He's not prolific either, but he's a skilful lump, and he'll hold onto the ball - something that doesn't happen now.

And just for the record, I'm not dismissing domestic based players. Duffy, McEleney, Sadlier and Hoban should all be considered. They are by no means worse than some of the filler already there.

------------------------------GK---------------------------
-----------Coleman- -------Egan----------Clark-----------
---------------------------Williams---------------------------
Doherty Cunningham/Stevens
------------------Browne--------------Brady--------------
--------------Robinson/McGoldrick/Crowley---------------
---------------------------- Maguire/O'Brien---------------

I know I'll get slated for the above left , particularly not having Duffy, Hendrick, Brady or McClean in the team, but to be very honest I don't think they deserve to be in any Irish team on merit at the moment. I'm a big believer in setting your team out with instructions to play the game specifically. If the team doesn't carry out your instructions, you replace the player, regardless of his calibre. If your team carry out your instructions, and they fail to play well while doing all that was asked of them, then you need to be replaced. I'm assuming the players are not carrying out the managers instructions, therefore some need to be replaced.

That's too long for now, will happily come back to it if needs be.

I'm not convinced at all yet by your back 3 personnel but the principles behind everything in your posts are sound. The need for the system is paramount. And the role specificity within that system is a requirement for this group. I think it is fairly telling that a number of current and recent players are making snarky/smirking comments in the papers or as pundits on TV. MON and Keane are both non-detail oriented and when you couple that with their admitted laziness and arrogance, things are catching up with them. Theyre just trying stuff but there is little to no thought - or detail - behind it. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail as a wise man once said......

[brine3]

Also worth remembering that his link-up play at that time wasn't that good, certainly not as good as it was later on.

Robbie Keane's link up play was never very good. He was never the complete footballer. The Irish Pippo Inzaghi. The team carried him in many matches. Many times his goals made the difference. When the goals didn't come it was like playing with half a player less.

Shane Long gets a lot of stick for not being a killer striker, but he puts in a shift and his link-up and positional play is very good.