Poland V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 19th November 2013 - Friendly - Poznań

[DeLorean]

The ability (agility) to get down low quickly is massive. This might be a small bit harsh but even the Greek winner against us looked suspect to me. He appeared to have no chance because it was right in the corner and he was a good distance from saving it. That said, if he was a bit sharper and had more agility perhaps he could have made it look a routine save? There wasn't huge force on the shot. The Swedish winner wasn't great on his part either, although it was well struck.

Swings and roundabouts? Forde dominates his area better, I'm sure the centre halves love that and are more confident defending balls into the box because of it.

I think everyone has reason to worry about it, but, likewise, Westwood has had his moments in the past and in context Forde's done well. However bets will be off if Westwood can continue his promising form
into next March.

It's not swings and roundabouts for me on what I have seen. If Westwood was very suspect under crosses then maybe, but I haven't found this to be the case. He did have an awkward moment against Fulham in the first PL game this season but he usually seems assured. In the PL match against United, for example, he dominated his area very well.

It sounds like I'm having a go at Forde, I'm really not and it's great that we have the luxury of a debate concerning two pretty good keepers. From what I have seen though, Westwood seems closer to top quality than Forde for me.

[SwanVsDalton]

It's not swings and roundabouts for me on what I have seen. If Westwood was very suspect under crosses then maybe, but I haven't found this to be the case. He did have an awkward moment against Fulham in the first PL game this season but he usually seems assured. In the PL match against United, for example, he dominated his area very well.

It sounds like I'm having a go at Forde, I'm really not and it's great that we have the luxury of a debate concerning two pretty good keepers. From what I have seen though, Westwood seems closer to top quality than Forde for me.

Admittedly I'm basing it mostly on Irish appearances - but I think it's telling that Forde claims almost everything, while I don't think Westwood is so dominant. Not to say he can't be, or isn't with Sunderland, but it's just not something I've seen so far.

Also, again, are we going to apply similar forensic scrutiny to Westwood's performance against, for example, Germany? If you were feeling harsh you might say he was too attached to his near post for the second, was half-hearted coming off his line for the fourth and slow to react for the sixth. Equally you'd say Reus' second was a great strike, the fourth came after we were shellshocked and the sixth he was probably unsighted.

Likewise I think it's great to have this discussion and, ideally, Westwood will be pulling off heroics for Sunderland for the rest of the season. Best way to convince anyone really.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not sure I agree with the criticism of Forde's agility. Granted, he was very slow getting down for the second Sweden goal but I don't think it's something we should fear becoming a regular occurrence. Certainly, of the two goalkeepers in question, I've seen Forde make more difficult saves in his appearances than Westwood has, and certainly has shown he can make saves that the Shay Given of Euro 2012 and beyond wouldn't.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to Forde, he was just back from injury when we played Sweden at home. I think he was superb at Wembley and in Cologne. A year ago I'd have been Westwood all the way, even when he was deputy to Mignolet, but now I'm very much in favour of Forde.

Point taken about his kicking but that pitch was a nightmare for keepers on Tuesday.

DeLorean, I also take your point about the rotation but I think O'Neill wanted his most reliable keeper when he fielded what was probably a weaker outfield. But who knows?!

[paul_oshea]

Forde can get down but you say he can't get down fast enough, regardless of measuring the nanosecond involved, it would be very difficult for an opposition to exploit that one.
Whereas it's relatively straightforward for the opposition to keep pressurising him when he has the ball at his feet in the box, to force him into a mistake.

Of course its important, a kick out, posession he has, or a shot low into the corner, which is more likely to and more often to cause a goal? Its the latter. Analysis has to be microscopic on stuff like this. Greece and the 2nd sweden are clear examples. Someone mentioned about commanding his box and embedding confidence in the defence, Given never commanded his box, but he was still a great keeper, and i'm sure the defence were very confident in his ability, so that argument for his inclusion is not as important as a keepers ability to make saves.

Its a very fine line in Goalkeeping between a good save or a mistake or should have done better. Whilst he made those saves in Germany, thats what I would expect, most of them had he not done so I would have said the same.

[DeLorean]

Also, again, are we going to apply similar forensic scrutiny to Westwood's performance against, for example, Germany? If you were feeling harsh you might say he was too attached to his near post for the second, was half-hearted coming off his line for the fourth and slow to react for the sixth. Equally you'd say Reus' second was a great strike, the fourth came after we were shellshocked and the sixth he was probably unsighted.

In the interests of forensic fairness I watched those goals again. For the second he had no chance, in fact he was very quick to close off the angle when it became apparent that Reus was going to get a shot in. The fact that he covered his near post so well forced Reus into a perfect execution across his body. If anything it could be compared with how Forde didn't do the same against Sweden and left Svensson with an easier task of putting it in at the near post. The fourth he was again very quick off his line even though it seemed unlikely that Darren O'Dea would be taken out with a fairly run of the mill through ball. That said, maybe he could have done better to get his body in the way of the angled shot. I don't think the last one is really open to forensic analysis, just a perfectly stuck shot which pretty much bent in around him.

I wouldn't have huge fears over Forde's agility either CD, but I would tend to think that Westwood is the more agile of the two. It's not comparing good and bad a such but, in order to level the playing field, Forde's strengths would have to be a nice bit better than Westwood's to redeem his ball to feet malfunctions.

[DeLorean]

DeLorean, I also take your point about the rotation but I think O'Neill wanted his most reliable keeper when he fielded what was probably a weaker outfield. But who knows?!

I wonder will Westwood playing under O'Neill at Sunderland help or hinder him. Obviously O'Neill is going to have a really strong opinion on him as things stand, unlike with Forde.

[SwanVsDalton]

In the interests of forensic fairness I watched those goals again. For the second he had no chance, in fact he was very quick to close off the angle when it became apparent that Reus was going to get a shot in. The fact that he covered his near post so well forced Reus into a perfect execution across his body. If anything it could be compared with how Forde didn't do the same against Sweden and left Svensson with an easier task of putting it in at the near post. The fourth he was again very quick off his line even though it seemed unlikely that Darren O'Dea would be taken out with a fairly run of the mill through ball. That said, maybe he could have done better to get his body in the way of the angled shot. I don't think the last one is really open to forensic analysis, just a perfectly stuck shot which pretty much bent in around him.

You understand my point wasn't to criticise Westwood but just to put forward a similar level of microcriticism as pointed at Forde, in regards to the Greece goal particularly (I think you brought it up a few posts back).

I don't think Westwood was at fault for any of those goals, but his actions certainly were not perfect when put under the microscope. Neither has Forde's been in the past, but I trust him to execute the job as equally as Westwood and he gets the nod because his performances have been better (and, on a couple of occasions, spectacular). Westwood hasn't had a game in an Irish shirt anywhere near Stockholm, London or Cologne for Forde.

If your gut is saying Westwood, then I can't argue with that. But if we took a straw poll for player of the past year, Forde would be in danger of winning the thing - albeit in a field with very few candidates!

[DeLorean]

No, I understood your point but what I meant about Forde (v. Greece) was that maybe he doesn't have the agility to get down low very quickly. This isn't really the same thing as being out of position or making a mistake, slight or otherwise. It could be an actual attribute (or lack thereof) that could set the two goalkeepers apart. I'm not saying for definite this is the case.

It's not so much a gut feeling either with regards my preference for Westwood, it's based on the evidence I've seen of both, for club (very limited) and country. Forde's performance in Sweden was based on a steadiness under crosses more than anything, I wouldn't argue against his competence in this area. In terms of his performance in Germany, I think it may have been a bit overstated (by myself included) because of how busy he was. He did make one or two really outstanding saves, I'm just not convinced that (a) Westwood wouldn't have done the same and (b) had they gone in he wouldn't have been criticised for not saving them. I realise that (a), in particular, is a moot point.

I remember Westwood replacing Given seemlessly in that vital qualifier against Macedonia and looking very assured, and any time I saw him for Sunderland also, which included an incredible double save at Old Trafford at one point. I find it a bit of a contrast having a goalkeeper that your heart skips every time a ball is played back to him, even allowing for his other attributes of which there are plenty.

I accept we've seen relatively little of both, for different reasons, so I guess the jury is still out.

[OwlsFan]

I'm not one that actually thinks a rejuvenation is required. McGeady has been good for us imo over the last 4 or 5 years. No doubt he has more in his locker but I am more of a supporter than knocker and think his performances and what he brings to the table have been under appreciated by some/most. Anyway, Ill take the bite - I watched on a fairly crappy stream but I actually thought McGeady put in some decent crosses last night. The Paul Green headed chance was a McG cross. The whipped in cross to Wilson on the edge of the box who flicked it inside and it went just beyond Robbie on the backpost are just two examples I can think of. I certainly cant think of (m)any under hit crosses or crosses that didnt beat the first man etc....

They beat the first man ok, and the second, and the third and the fourth....he obviously has tried to overcompensate on occasions in the Polish game.

I find him a very frustrating player who can give the ball away very easily at times. On the plus side, there is nearly always an air of expectation when he is on the ball and he can make things happen but his end product often does not live up to that expectation. I just have a feeling of unfulfilled potential whenever I see him play. I remember reading rave reviews about him when he first came on the scene: the new Maradona etc. That's not his fault that people were saying that about him and of course Celtic fans would hear no wrong about him (whatever happened to McGeady10 ?) but I just don't think he never became the finished article. Well worth a place in the squad and probably also the side but not above criticism.

[geysir]

A fit and available Westwood was the first choice of Kelly until he wasn't available due to fitness or him not getting first team football, now that both are available I'd be reasonably confident that a goalkeeping coach like McDonagh can figure out which is our nr 1.

[paul_oshea]

Neither has Forde's been in the past, but I trust him to execute the job as equally as Westwood and he gets the nod because his performances

I'm not sure what you are basing this on, I think the word microscopic is a bit strong, its a fundamental attribute of a good/very good keeper, to have agility and speed of hand in this case getting down to the ground and getting a hand towards the ball as quickly as possible, I don't even think we talking nanoseconds here than milliseconds, which is a significant number in the lifecyle of a keeper making a save. Put simply, based on making saves, which is the most important factor, and the consequences of not doing enough to make those saves(Sweden and Greece)*, I would have Westwood ahead, and I think we will see O'Neill do the same, unless Forde improves and Westwood goes backwards.

I remember thinking that to lose 6-1 the keeper must have done something wrong in at least one or 2 goals, I can remember thinking for 2 Westwood could have done better, but I'm not really sure he could have, and I'm pretty sure that Forde wouldn't have. But in the scheme of things it didnt really matter, we got tonked, same as Fordes saves against Germany away, where it did really really matter was Sweden, and a close game like the Greek one, he didnt deliver and perhaps could have been the difference between a score.

[SwanVsDalton]

I'm not sure what you are basing this on, I think the word microscopic is a bit strong, its a fundamental attribute of a good/very good keeper, to have agility and speed of hand in this case getting down to the ground and getting a hand towards the ball as quickly as possible, I don't even think we talking nanoseconds here than milliseconds, which is a significant number in the lifecyle of a keeper making a save.

The reason I'm describing it as 'microscopic' is because the criticisms appear to disregard Forde's strong points and high calibre performances (of which there has been three) to focus on two goals - against Sweden and Greece. The Sweden goal, for me, was a mistake but not an uncommon one for a goalie. The Greece one I don't see much in personally. Either way what we're talking about is question the agility and hand speed of a guy who has made some seriously world class saves for us over the past year. That is microscopic criticism, when it appears to lapse the context. No offence but the tenor of your and DeLorean's argument is 'Forde is a mistake waiting to happen' which doesn't tell the story of his tenure in goal so far.

For the record I don't think he's anywhere near as slow as that.

Put simply, based on making saves, which is the most important factor, and the consequences of not doing enough to make those saves(Sweden and Greece)*, I would have Westwood ahead, and I think we will see O'Neill do the same, unless Forde improves and Westwood goes backwards...

...But in the scheme of things it didnt really matter, we got tonked, same as Fordes saves against Germany away, where it did really really matter was Sweden, and a close game like the Greek one, he didnt deliver and perhaps could have been the difference between a score.

I just don't see how you can base that on 'making saves' or 'not making them'. Forde's cleaned out Westwood in terms of shot-stopping for Ireland. Westwood had plenty of saves to make against to Germany - he didn't make them. Not entirely his fault but still. Forde had some screamers aimed at him against Germany but he kept them out.

As for games that matter or don't - Sweden away featured about three crucial saves to guarantee a point. England away likewise in the second half (if we're counting friendlies). By your reckoning the game in Germany was more meaningless (so the saves less relevant), but then where does that leave Westwood he couldn't pull it out at home when it mattered?

Again if Westwood's your number one choice fine, but I don't see a consistent approach in how these two are being evaluated. And it's just plain skewed to castigate two arguable errors (possibly the only two) and totally dismiss some really, really fantastic goalkeeping because of the opposition or 'games that matter'.

[Stuttgart88]

I though Forde was very good away to Sweden too. A super save in injury time. He made some smart stops against England too, including getting down quickly at his near post to defy Walcott. I think he is good in the air and the best under a high ball since Bonner in the late 80s, in fact probably better.

I watched all 3 keepers up close in Gdansk during the extensive pre match warm ups 30 mins before KO. Westwood had the quickest reactions, Given had acquired a bizarre technique of fisting everything straight at him (which cost us a goal in the game) and Forde looked to have the slowest reactions. Thats all well and good though. A good goalie reads games well and I think Forde does this better than Westwood. I also think Westwood gets caught under high balls at club level, but I still think he is re-acquiring confidence and isn't yet the same keeper that was outstanding at Old Trafford.

I like both keepers and think Forde deserves to stay in the jersey on merit. I like his composure and presence and I think his presence makes up for some minor flaws.

[DannyInvincible]

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:





That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

[Charlie Darwin]

Given had acquired a bizarre technique of fisting everything straight at him (which cost us a goal in the game)

Chest/shoulder injury?

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:

That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

Unless our Jonathan has suddenly become an underage Gah player for Offaly, I'd say it's probably not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, Forde and Westwood?
Two bald men fighting over a comb...

Both mediocre at best, but don't care who plays, more about how we set up in midfield and what our back four is. Even everyone's 'best' selection is never going to be overly inspiring.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's actually a ridiculous thing to say about Forde and Westwood. They might not be elite goalkeepers but both are very good and we're in a lot better position than we were when Given's absence meant we were panicking about the second line of defence. After Alan Kelly retired, we were blessed that Given maintained his fitness so long and seemed to time his injuries for when we didn't have competitive games.

[SkStu]

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:




That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

Why didn't he start for Germany though? Fair question

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's actually a ridiculous thing to say about Forde and Westwood. They might not be elite goalkeepers but both are very good and we're in a lot better position than we were when Given's absence meant we were panicking about the second line of defence. After Alan Kelly retired, we were blessed that Given maintained his fitness so long and seemed to time his injuries for when we didn't have competitive games.

It's not really. Neither are Given at his peak, nor will be ever anything like...

Not the difference between winning and losing a game, both just competent. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's far more about how we're set up on the field that will dictate results.