Poland V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 19th November 2013 - Friendly - Poznań

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/11/2013, 3:29 AM

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

It's not really. Neither are Given at his peak, nor will be ever anything like...

Not the difference between winning and losing a game, both just competent. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's far more about how we're set up on the field that will dictate results.

That's an insane comparison. Given is the best goalkeeper this country has ever produced. By that logic, Tevez and Aguero would be two bald men fighting over a comb when compared to Maradona, but nobody to make such a moronic analogy. Westwood and Forde are of a similar standard, and I for one am glad we have them rather than Paddy Kenny and Wayne Henderson. You might prefer to play ten men and no goalkeeper in the absence of Given in his prime, but I'm going to take the common sense approach and hope Martin O'Neill picks a goalkeeper in his team, and luckily for us it looks like he will select one of the aforementioned twosome.

Although, you never know, O'Neill might call up Alan Kelly, Sr in his prime next week, or maybe even Pat Jennings circa 1982. We can always hope. They were team mates after all.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 22/11/2013, 3:43 AM

Except Tevez and Aguero are both capable of changing a result, a bit like Maradona back in his day.
Forde/Westwood aren't and never will be. And Kenny/Henderson are marginally 'worse', but again probably aren't ever going to affect a result either way.
So all this navel gazing is irrelevant. Unless we discover a better keeper.

As for moronic analogies, well that's Kelly & Jennings being put into the equation when they're probably both just glad to still be alive...

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/11/2013, 3:49 AM

No, you're wrong. Forde won us a point in Sweden.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 22/11/2013, 3:56 AM

As opposed to Westwood, who didn't play.

And that, tbf, was more about how Trap set up the team to cancel out the Swedes. Oh and that Zlatan wasn't that interested either, possibly the two are related?

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/11/2013, 4:25 AM

OK, so Zlatan wasn't interested. He was interested for the games against Germany, Austria, Kazakhstan, the Faroes and Portugal, but for some reason he wasn't interested against a very beatable team that could have won his side qualification for his last World Cup. Perhaps he had a headache, or perhaps he's just a keen critic of David Forde and wanted to provoke a few extra pages of debate on foot.ie.

Forde made several great saves to earn us a point. Westwood I remember making a great save to win us three points against Macedonia. The fact is Ireland are a side where we need our goalkeeper to make saves to get us results. Argentina have the opposite problem - they need their strikers to win them games where the opposition is set up to defend. They're important players for different reasons.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 22/11/2013, 4:31 AM

Forde played his part, but though I was no fan of Trap in that last campaign, that was entirely about he set up the Ireland side, in which the keeper was just an incidental piece.

Failure to grasp this, is a failure to grasp the fundamentals of football tactics. This was one time recently Trap got it 'right'. Bravo?

Something for MO'N & co. to build on, away from home.

**geysir** · 22/11/2013, 7:29 AM

Trap's formation in Stockholm to neutralise the Swedish threat, stunned Zlatan into a state of apathy,
and therefore our goalie wasn't exposed to more shots? Some Crocodile Dundee type jinx?
We were fortunate that Trap had a little bit of black magic up his sleeve, seeing how his renowned lucky streak had dried up.

**Stuttgart88** · 22/11/2013, 9:36 AM

Just FYI, "our" player was Jonathon Douglas!

And Charlie D, no I don't think Given's punching was anything to do with injury. I don't know, but I reckon he was being coached into copying the European style of goalkeeping. These were hard, crisp shots straight at his chest. Bread and butter stuff for even amateur goalkeepers.

**DeLorean** · 22/11/2013, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

No offence but the tenor of your and DeLorean's argument is 'Forde is a mistake waiting to happen' which doesn't tell the story of his tenure in goal so far.

Offence taken!

I don't think you're getting me. I'm going to make one final attempt and leave it at that. I really like Forde and think he has performed superbly for us since his introduction, which was a baptism of fire in a team devoid of any confidence and up against it in most games. I also think it's a wonderful story, making his debut at 31 and he really appears to be loving every minute of it. He clearly has a really good temperament for the big occasion as well which is admirable for a guy of so little big game experience, relatively speaking.

"A mistake waiting to happen".... I can only speak for myself but I mean this in relation to his poor kicking only. It's not a mistake waiting to happen, it's a mistake that happens a couple of times per game depending on how often the ball is passed back to him. It's a mistake waiting to be punished. It also gives the opposition some impetus as it makes us appear nervous and shaky. The majority on here seem to think that it's a flaw that can be overlooked because it either hasn't really been punished yet or the rest of his game makes up for it. I would probably agree if we didn't have another goalkeeper of at least similar ability who doesn't possess this flaw. It wouldn't be as big an issue if we were a team capable of retaining possession and our outfield players didn't use their goalkeeper as an outlet so often, but at the moment they do.

When I mentioned the goals conceded to Greece and Sweden, I wasn't having a go. Neither were criminal. I was only making the point that if we are to overlook his ball to feet inadequacies, the rest of his game should be substantially better than Westwood's. On what I have seen, I don't think it is.

**tetsujin1979** · 22/11/2013, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:
That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

no, this is his twitter account: https://twitter.com/dougieno8

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Just FYI, "our" player was Jonathon Douglas!

that's not how he spells it!

**Stuttgart88** · 22/11/2013, 10:49 AM

No? I thought he spelt it unusually. My error.

**paul_oshea** · 22/11/2013, 11:15 AM

I think the point is being missed how important the keepers agility and ability to makes saves is. It doesn't matter who you have outfield, if your keeper can't make the required saves to keep you in the game. It's not about what he did in Sweden, its about what he didn't do against Sweden at home. A keepers job is all about fractions, look at England, Hart makes great saves and everyone is happy, he makes 1 or 2 mistakes or doesn't makes saves that he should and he is rightfully castigated and dropped. We could be doing really well in a tight game, and the oppossition have identified his lack of ability at getting down low and his reactions, against decent opposition they will be aware, and in a better position to execute and expose the flaw. It has nothing to do with "oh well im expecting something to happen" as SvD pointed out, its based on past experiences of what I have seen of Forde.

I also thought he could have done better for the England goal in wembley actually.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 22/11/2013, 11:30 AM

Aye, but he wasn't helped by having a mediocre defence in front of him.
If you have a good/great defence you can often get away with a mediocre keeper. Unfortunately, we have a largely mediocre back 5, whoever plays.

**tetsujin1979** · 22/11/2013, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

No? I thought he spelt it unusually. My error.

oddly enough, it's his birthday today!
He's 32

**SwanVsDalton** · 22/11/2013, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Offence taken!

I don't think you're getting me. I'm going to make one final attempt and leave it at that. I really like Forde and think he has performed superbly for us since his introduction, which was a baptism of fire in a team devoid of any confidence and up against it in most games. I also think it's a wonderful story, making his debut at 31 and he really appears to be loving every minute of it. He clearly has a really good temperament for the big occasion as well which is admirable for a guy of so little big game experience, relatively speaking.

"A mistake waiting to happen".... I can only speak for myself but I mean this in relation to his poor kicking only. It's not a mistake waiting to happen, it's a mistake that happens a couple of times per game depending on how often the ball is passed back to him. It's a mistake waiting to be punished. It also gives the opposition some impetus as it makes us appear nervous and shaky. The majority on here seem to think that it's a flaw that can be overlooked because it either hasn't really been punished yet or the rest of his game makes up for it. I would probably agree if we didn't have another goalkeeper of at least similar ability who doesn't possess this flaw. It wouldn't be as big an issue if we were a team capable of retaining possession and our outfield players didn't use their goalkeeper as an outlet so often, but at the moment they do.

When I mentioned the goals conceded to Greece and Sweden, I wasn't having a go. Neither were criminal. I was only making the point that if we are to overlook his ball to feet inadequacies, the rest of his game should be substantially better than Westwood's. On what I have seen, I don't think it is.

Good explanation but it's pretty much how I read you (even if I exaggerated in the description

)

I just don't see it that way, because I think Forde brings more to the table than you do. He eclipses Westwood in his vocal assertiveness and calmness aided to a commanding control of his area and good shot stopping.

I don't think the kicking flaw should be overlooked, I just hope that if the management deign to make him first choice he a) works on it and b) the team take that into consideration when using him as an outlet. Like I mentioned playing it out short - which Forde is perfectly capable of - should be a used when facing lesser opposition and/or at home and would go some way to mitigating the problem.

I wouldn't have a major problem if the management plumped for Westwood off the back of great Prem form, I'm just not sure as yet.

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I also thought he could have done better for the England goal in wembley actually.

Fair enough on your larger point but this is what I mean by forensic. You could make a case for a keeper doing better for a lot of goals, when taken in isolation. Keep this up in a few pages Forde could've done better for every goal! As could Westwood if we wanted to get down to it. But I'm happy to say both have largely not been at fault for goals conceded, albeit Forde could've done better on occasion mitigated by largely strong performances.

This lack of goalie trust is a partly a result of what happens when a truly great custodian goes away like Given. Westwood and Forde need to earn unconditional trust like those before. As has been said, it's a good position to be in and the competition will keep both strong in a way Given failed to be in latter years.

Both have some way to go - but what I really liked about Forde that I think he took his chance. He was vocal. Commanding. Assertive. He wasn't just solid, he was positive. He influenced games. Westwood did pretty much nothing wrong - but he didn't do as much actively right either. His auditions were more passive. If he has those commanding qualities Forde has displayed, fine - but I want to see them in a green shirt. Get out there and take the jersey back.

**DeLorean** · 22/11/2013, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Both have some way to go

Big time. Westwood's immediate priority will be reclaiming his Sunderland spot first anyway. Probably not a good thing that Mannone has only conceded once in two and a half games since taking over, which included two victories and a clean sheet against Manchester City.

**geysir** · 22/11/2013, 12:52 PM

It will be interesting to see if Westwood regains his starting place on the Sunderland team this weekend.

**Drumcondra 69er** · 22/11/2013, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

It will be interesting to see if Westwood regains his starting place on the Sunderland team this weekend.

Apparently not, Mannone there on merit at the moment.

**SkStu** · 22/11/2013, 3:07 PM

I really despair sometimes at the nature of some debates on here. People just want to argue to the most micro level possible in the knowledge that you can always be considered right at a micro level no matter what side of the debate you are on. Forde and Westwood are good keepers and they will both do a good job if called upon. A flaw is only a flaw if it is comprised of repeated and similar mistakes - see Fordes distribution. A mistake is not a flaw, it's a mistake. Forde and Westwood have both made mistakes in games. So did Given. It's only when they are similar and become repeated that the issue becomes a flaw (Joe Harts judgement). Hart wasn't dropped for making one or two mistakes - he was dropped for making repeated mistakes of a similar nature which displayed a flaw that had developed in his game and was proving costly to City.

To blame Forde for a mistake leading to anything other than one goal since he started with us is ridiculous. Even if we were to acknowledge a second mistake, it would still be a good return for him. He does however need to work on his flaw - his kicking. For the reason that DeLorean identified in #149.

On who should be our #1 - they are both good keepers with different strengths and weaknesses. They will both do a fine job for us. Therefore possession is 9-10ths of the law and Forde should retain it for now in my humble opinion.

**DeLorean** · 22/11/2013, 3:39 PM

I'll leave that slide as most of it was aimed at Paul I'm sure

As for the possession being 9/10ths, I'm not sure that is the case, or that it should be the case. For a start, Forde was Trap's number one, not O'Neill's. Secondly, Westwood only lost the position in the first place due to a lack of first team football, something we hope he is now getting. Assuming he is now getting it, it's at a higher level to Forde (though I'm not sure it counts for as much with goalkeepers). Thirdly, Forde is about to turn 34 and Westwood has just turned 29. Granted age isn't a major issue with goalkeepers but Forde will be 36 (and a half!!) when the Euros come around.

We'll have a better idea where Westwood stands when we see Sunderland's line-up tomorrow I guess.