Ireland V Germany(A) 11th October & Kazakhstan(H) 15th October 2013 - World Cup '14 Q

[Stuttgart88]

What's the significance of Turkey on Tuesday?

[Stuttgart88]

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?

[ArdeeBhoy]

What's the significance of Turkey on Tuesday?

See the Euro 2016 thread, to do with seedings.

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?

Badly. You might get away with one, but not both...

[mark12345]

I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.

Agree. I couldn't believe Hoolahan wasn't played from the start, let alone brought on as a sub. Whelan played in his stead. Crazy selection, and I like Noel. He is a former coach of mine at Home Farm. Great coach to be honest and gave us a new perception on the game when we played under him. Ireland never would have won the game against Germany, let's be honest, but my biggest aggravation is and has always been, not playing our best players - something Trap graduated with honours in. Having seen what Whelan has done, or should I say hasn't done, over the last few years in an Ireland shirt, it is hard to see how anyone would pick him. Anyway....

But as far as the game plan, I give full credit to King for getting his players to play a short passing game. Coleman most impressive in this regard I thought. At the end of the day it just shows you how far we have to go to get to the 'start' line. We're not even at that stage yet to be honest. But we have to start somewhere and although it's going to take time, it's a journey that has to be made.

[Crosby87]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's a bit like asking, is Martin Luther King related to Martin Luther...

[elroy]

Given that most of us watch EPL, I couldnt help thinking the other night as Germany completely dominated possession that how come the likes of a Crystal Palace against a team like Man U dont appear to be so dominated. Like United wouldnt be able to boss the possession and pin Palace in their half like Germany did to us. I think the gulf between United and Palace and Germany and Ireland is a similar comparison.

I suppose what Im getting at is, would the end result have been any worse if we actually tried to play against them (rather than just damage limitation)? Playing higher up the pitch, play a little more offensively? I dont think it would have been.

As I type this, I can think of La Liga games where I have watched Barca in particular completely boss and dominate possession in a similar manner. Maybe this point in itself is illustrating the need for change in the UK/Irish game.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I think that's it. I watched the game on Friday with 2 ardent United fans. They were saying that under Moyes and even Ferguson United play a relatively unsophisticated brand of football. They were saying they watched St Galen in the Europa League, a relatively unheralded Swiss team, and they played a far more accomplished brand of football.

I have always admired the central and Eastern European style of football and prefer it to the Latin style. The movement off the ball and the angles they create is a joy to watch.

Would Celtic against Barcelona be a mismatch of Germany v Ireland proportions? Celtic certainly put it up to them, and also Milan. I also thought Celtic were superb at home to Karagandy and said here at the time that I wish Ireland could play like that at home. The thing is, we probably have better players in most positions. I don't watch Celtic enough to be sure though.

But look at how Bayern took Man City apart last week. Yes, City came back strongly but that's like saying we could have drawn 3-3 in Cologne. 6 of the German team are from Bayern. City's squad cost a fortune.

[Yard of Pace]

But look at how Bayern took Man City apart last week. Yes, City came back strongly but that's like saying we could have drawn 3-3 in Cologne. 6 of the German team are from Bayern. City's squad cost a fortune.

Well that's the crux really isn't it? Man United aren't particularly good at the minute and are in a period of transition. Also a game against Palace is unlikely to get their players revved up to the nines.
We've been humiliated by Germany and Spain, both in games that meant a huge amount to those teams. Putting it up to them wasn't really an option, unless we could've flooded the defence, kicked them round the place and hoped for a lenient ref so we'd end up with enough players to finish the game. Our best players wouldn't get near their squads.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would Celtic against Barcelona be a mismatch of Germany v Ireland proportions? Celtic certainly put it up to them, and also Milan. I also thought Celtic were superb at home to Karagandy and said here at the time that I wish Ireland could play like that at home. The thing is, we probably have better players in most positions. I don't watch Celtic enough to be sure though.

Despite their first leg win, Karagandy were awful in the 2nd game. Probably proportionately even worse than Ireland. And yes, Celtic could easily get humped by Barca in another CL game. They're very limited in that context, but if they can get 7 points in their remaining games, should be enough to keep them in Europa.
Not sure how much a mismatch Barca away will be, but if Messi plays we can fear the worst.

More interestingly would be who is better, Celtic or Ireland? Not much in it, but give it to the 'Tic by a cigarette paper !!
As for Barca, v.Germany;Barca have the better defence.

[brine3]

I didn't realise that Barca have a defence.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe you should pay more attention...

[tricky_colour]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

Descended from Good King Wenceslas I believe.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Credit to Stutts as Roi.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...king-1.1559480

Even the biggest fantasist isn't expecting Hoolahan and Reid in the same team though...

[DeLorean]

Well, let's see how he does in a home game. I think we can at least agree that home performances against decent teams have been poor, although I think we'll agree to differ on the first half against Austria. I expect well agree that home performances against the likes of Armenia and Macedonia were workmanlike and efficient rather than being particularly good. I know you don't get style marks for a win, but at the same time the standard of performance contains some additional information benefit.

I won't argue for a second about defending a 2 nil defeat. Even at 2 down I thought that a goal was there to be nicked and then it'd have been interesting.

You seem to think he deserves a free ride for the Germany game and I might have agreed if he had got the basics even half right. This isn't a 'Bring back Trap' campaign or anything like it, but if Gio was in charge the other night, picked that ultra negative team and tried to hang on for dear life to a 2-0 defeat he would have been ridiculed. Not bringing on a creative player or two, with our campaign dead and buried and absolutely nothing to lose, bar face, was inexcusable. I know you're not arguing this point a such, but obviously you're not as put out by it as me. I don't see why we need to wait until the game tomorrow to rate his performance. We can rate tomorrow night on tomorrow night, just as we can rate Friday on Friday.

I'm sure we would have lost in Russia if we didn't have Dunne, and I'm sure we would have lost plenty more aside without him. We could have easily lost by an embarrassing scoreline the other night without Forde on top of his game too. I completely disagree with the doc, usually such an optimist but I guess this is Sledge related, about Ciaran Clark. I think he has all the attributes you need in a centre back, aggressive, assertive, good in the air and vocal. He's 24 now which is young in centre back terms. He's improving all the time and those brain farts we gradually become less frequent I'd imagine. To be honest I'm relieved to have somebody of his potential taking up the reins post Dunne.

We can't compare a stand-in manager's stint to Trap's away games in the first 2 campaigns. That's a patently ridiculous comparison. But it was as good if not better than anything we have done in this campaign and he managed that by making mistakes left right and centre. Just imagine the improvement if he or another manager was capable of rectifying/improving a few obvious situations.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at my 'Trap away' comment but I've explained a few times what I meant by that. On your point though, our performance in Stockholm was incomparably better than our performance on Friday in my view, even allowing for the level of opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

Thanks DeLorean, I concur with all of paragraphs 1 and 2.

[paul_oshea]

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?

Thats a very good question stutts, I'm pretty sure we would have conceded at least 1.

I thought we actually played ok on Friday, for a back four that had never played before, and a team that included kelly which it shouldnt have really.

I thought the selection was bizzare but that the team performed pretty well overall, but some were poor. I would have started with Wilson left back and thrown Whelan in beside Gibson, the other calls were marginal as we werent going to creating much anyway.

Mark12345, did you actually see the game? Whelan was one of our best players on the night. I have often said how poor he is but i remarked(tongue in cheek perhaps) to stutts on the night, that Trap had been holding him back all these years, that ball he played over the top in the second half was class. Long probably would have had the pace there to get ahead of Neuer and take it around him, whether or not he would have scored is another matter.

[paul_oshea]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

No, he is related to Martin King.

[SwanVsDalton]

Mark12345, did you actually see the game? Whelan was one of our best players on the night. I have often said how poor he is but i remarked(tongue in cheek perhaps) to stutts on the night, that Trap had been holding him back all these years, that ball he played over the top in the second half was class. Long probably would have had the pace there to get ahead of Neuer and take it around him, whether or not he would have scored is another matter.

Only just back from Cologne yesterday so catching out of the forum proper now but I'm a little surprised more hasn't been said about Glenn, as I agree with you. His best game in an Ireland shirt for an age, albeit in a role that utterly didn't suit him. He was disciplined and worked hard to double up on Schurrle - he and Coleman's work was far superior to Kelly and Doyle on the other side. In the second half he and Coleman also switched seamlessly at times to let Seamus go forward.

On the ball he was decent too - held the ball well, didn't panic, looked to get the team going forward. That pass to put Stokes away was a beauty. For me more composed and involved than McCarthy, and far more quality than Wilson who was quite poor on the ball.

Agreed to an extent. His mistake for the first goal should have been more determination to atone for the error with some of his chances...On the offside in the first however, he was not offside. It was a bad call by the linesman.

Fair enough I haven't seen it back. Didn't seem there was much complaints from the player's at the time, but I'll exonerate Anthony in that case. Still if his performance confirmed anything, it's simply that when Robbie goes we are in big trouble.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, Paul and I were in agreement with the Whelan assessment. He actually looked a decent player. I know you cant judge a player's performance from a set piece but he was given a dreadful ball by Gibson(?) which he did well to control and put in a good ball onto Clark's head, leading to him hitting the bar. Whelan's general play was decent, his best in a long time. Credit where it's due, but I still wouldn't pick him!

Paul, I thanked mark1234's post because he is right about Friday being the first step in a long journey we have to take. We are starting from behind the start line, if that makes sense!

SvD, Stokes was onside that time. A tight call but the wrong one.