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Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #41
    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Could you not sell the west midlands to your fellow unionist? Understandably that's a harder sell than unity with the fenians but you're more than capable of multi-quoting them into submission and could comfort them by saying at least it's not brazil.

  2. #42
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Fly educates Da South.
    Dat's the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Unity isn't necessarily the same thing as absorption/subsumption.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Agreed in principle, but in practice I think the onus is on you and Fly to spell out the detail. Or, as I put it previously, to sell Unity to the Unionists.


    I saw SF's broadcast on TV last night. Unfortunately, in three minutes (half of which was Gerry stumbling through some Irish translations) we didn't really get far.
    Just to summarize my thoughts, I believe a large part of the problem is that the vision for a united Ireland has never been properly articulated. In order for it to be successful it would have to be stressed, not just in words but also in action, that this would be a new nation. It's lazy thinking to suggest that it would simply be a matter of the Republic absorbing Northern Ireland. In reality, such a prospect is both unworkable and undesirable. Hoping to redraw the border to stave off the impending osmosis is just the flip side to fenian fantasy.

    The are many barriers to be overcome. In keeping with your comments above, I'd suggest the first is the removal of Sinn Fein as chief salesmen. A so-called 'united Ireland' will remain a toxic concept for unionists as long as it is left to Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein alone, to espouse it.
    Last edited by The Fly; 12/04/2013 at 5:29 PM.

  3. #43
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Just to summarize my thoughts, I believe a large part of the problem is that the vision for a united Ireland has never been properly articulated. In order for it to be successful it would have to be stressed, not just in words but also in action, that this would be a new nation
    You must have some articulate ideas of your own though, and links to those of others?

    It's lazy thinking to suggest that it would simply be a matter of the Republic absorbing Northern Ireland
    In the absence of any alternative suggestion, it's not laziness but a recognition of the current situation.

    In reality, such a prospect is both unworkable and undesirable. Hoping to redraw the border to stave off the impending osmosis is just the flip side to fenian fantasy
    We're part-agreed then. Although I see my suggestion as trying to be imaginative rather than fantastic...

    The are many barriers to be overcome. In keeping with your comments above, I'd suggest the first is the removal of Sinn Fein as chief salesmen. A so-called 'united Ireland' will remain a toxic concept for unionists as long as it is left to Sinn Fein, and Sinn Fein alone, to espouse it
    Does that just mean Fine Gael and the rest parroting what SF says

  4. #44
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    You must have some articulate ideas of your own though, and links to those of others?
    For starters, I imagine a federal republic with a significant degree of autonomy for the territory that constitutes the current geographic area of Northern Ireland. Perhaps this federal system could be rolled out on a provincial basis island-wide, but I have no idea as to the popularity of such a proposal. In order to ease unionist fears, and following India's precedent, I suggest applying to join the Commonwealth of Nations and establishing some sort of formal link to Britain. I realize that link is very loose to say the least but perceptions matter.

    Any thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    In the absence of any alternative suggestion, it's not laziness but a recognition of the current situation.
    When has the absorption model been suggested? You have just assumed it to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    We're part-agreed then. Although I see my suggestion as trying to be imaginative rather than fantastic...
    Notwithstanding your spin on re-partition (The Irish state increases its territory + I'm more secure = problem sorted. How can Nationalists not like that?), I see it as a sad reversion to type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Does that just mean Fine Gael and the rest parroting what SF says
    No, and I can see how you may have inferred that. Apologies.
    Last edited by The Fly; 12/04/2013 at 8:30 PM.

  5. #45
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    For starters, I imagine a federal republic with a significant degree of autonomy for the territory that constitutes the current geographic area of Northern Ireland. Perhaps this federal system could be rolled out on a provincial basis island-wide, but I have no idea as to the popularity of such a proposal. In order to ease unionist fears, and following India's precedent, I suggest applying to join the Commonwealth of Nations and establishing some sort of formal link to Britain. I realize that link is very loose to say the least but perceptions matter
    Would Nationalists in ex-NI, especially in their majority up-country and border areas, really want the old six as a whole to have autonomy? That suggests a continued talking shop at Stormont.

    I'd guess there'd be little demand for federalism in Cork or Galway. Wouldn't people just complain abut more gombeen hack politicians?

    The nature of Unionist fears has changed. During the troubles, there was obviously a lot of genuine intimidation, on both sides; now, as you mentioned earlier, people in your village are worried about falling numbers threatening the future of their Church, or local primary school. I doubt the Republic joining the Commonwealth would do anything to soothe that.

    When has the absorption model been suggested? You have just assumed it to be the case
    Implicit in the huge majority of related discussions over decades, I'm afraid

    Notwithstanding your spin on increasing the Republic's territory , I see it as a sad reversion to type
    Partitionist sticks to partition, you mean? I haven't left type.

  6. #46
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Would Nationalists in ex-NI, especially in their majority up-country and border areas, really want the old six as a whole to have autonomy? That suggests a continued talking shop at Stormont.
    I did state in my previous post that there would be a significant degree of autonomy not the full autonomy you have inferred - the amount is something to be discussed.

    In any case I'd say I wouldn't have much of a problem with it and I suspect the majority of nationalists wouldn't mind either. If such an arrangement is voted for then I suggest that the will of the people will be respected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    I'd guess there'd be little demand for federalism in Cork or Galway. Wouldn't people just complain abut more gombeen hack politicians?
    Possibly, although they may also appreciate a provincial assembly tailored to their own needs and in charge of regional development. However, as I stated earlier, I have no idea as to the popularity of such a proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    The nature of Unionist fears has changed. During the troubles, there was obviously a lot of genuine intimidation, on both sides; now, as you mentioned earlier, people in your village are worried about falling numbers threatening the future of their Church, or local primary school. I doubt the Republic joining the Commonwealth would do anything to soothe that.
    I appreciate that. Indeed, joining the Commonwealth would be largely symbolic but the organisation itself is largely symbolic.

    ---------

    Is that a No to both proposals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Implicit in the huge majority of related discussions over decades, I'm afraid
    So you've just gone along with the troubles-related discourse then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Partitionist sticks to partition, you mean? I haven't left type.
    More like Unionist Northern Irishman is willing for Northern Ireland's territorial integrity to be punctured with no opportunity for repair. A move that would pave the way for future redraws; eventually leaving an Antrim, North Down and North Armagh shaped candle holder in union with Britain. What are your fellow Unionists in these ceded areas supposed to to do by the way? Will Westminster fund a repatriation scheme?
    Last edited by The Fly; 12/04/2013 at 9:38 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I did state in my previous post that there would be a significant degree of autonomy not the full autonomy you have inferred - the amount is something to be discussed
    OK, I was just thinking aloud. I don't think the level of autonomy from Dublin really matters when you're preparing a sales pitch to Unionists.

    I appreciate that. Indeed, joining the Commonwealth would be largely symbolic but the organisation itself is largely symbolic...is that a No to both proposals?
    Afraid so. They're vague and intangible.

    So you've just gone along with the troubles-related discourse then?
    No, I've asked numerous Nationalists down the years to suggest cmething compelling, and to date none of you have.

    At the relatively superficial football team level, Third Policeman and I have rehashed the argument on here a few times. It tends to go like this:

    TP: A single all-Ireland team wouldn't simply take over NI; the Republic's team would disappear too

    GR: Hardly, if it was playing all its matches in Dublin under a tricolor in front of McAleesenthal or Michael D singing the Soldier's Song

    TP: How do you know what the silent majority of NI fans think?

    GR: I can be pretty sure that at the very least, by definition, they want there to be a separate NI team...

    More like Unionist Northern Irishman is willing for Northern Ireland's territorial integrity to be punctured with no opportunity for repair. A move that would pave the way for future redraws; eventually leaving an Antrim, North Down and North Armagh shaped candle holder in union with Britain. What are your fellow Unionists in these ceded areas supposed to to do by the way? Will Westminster fund a repatriation scheme?
    I trailed two suggestions above: one pushed the border to the edge of Portadown, Ballynahinch and Limavady; the other 'merely' nudged it around Derry Cityside, Newry and Strabane. I'm not hidebound by territorial integrity; that latter example wouldn't affect the largely non-existent Unionist voters in those towns. Win-win-no more 'loss' than now, as I suggested above.

    There have been no redraws, barely any suggestion of one, since 1925; so it just doesn't follow that one in 2025 would be followed by an annual event.

    Giving up a larger geographical area would of course strand more Unionists, but at the same time nominally benefit even more Nationalists. I'm not denying that securing a deal would be difficult, but remember you can't have it both ways. To illustrate a point above, you stressed the vanishing Unionist presence in Moy; if that's repeated on any sort of large scale, you wouldn't need to repatriate as people will have left anyway of their own accord.

  8. #48
    Seasoned Pro Lionel Ritchie's Avatar
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    Here's a curve ball. I'm thinking it's time Limerick left the Republic of Ireland ...an institution I've sadly come to conclude is essentially a (Dublin) city state with a (presumed) hinterland of the rest of the country. When I say I'm walking out the door with Limerick by the way I just mean the city -you can keep the wannabee Kerry-folk one encounters beyond Mungret though I'm taking our natural hinterlands and infrastructures such as the near starved to death shannon airport and the estuary ports with us.

    We'll forge our own path and we'll be fine. I'm toying with the idea of applying to join her majestys benevolent union. There's some local RSF gowls it'd really wind up for a bit of extra sport.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

  9. #49
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    OK, I was just thinking aloud. I don't think the level of autonomy from Dublin really matters when you're preparing a sales pitch to Unionists.

    Afraid so. They're vague and intangible.
    A Federal Republic is hardly vague. It's an entirely new form of government for the island, as opposed to the unitary states that exist at present. If you require further description then it would have its own constitution, anthem etc. I haven't decided on economic, education, health or defence policies yet though. Perhaps that's better discussed at the time.

    Anything agreeable there?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    No, I've asked numerous Nationalists down the years to suggest cmething compelling, and to date none of you have.
    Is that not because there is nothing that would compel you to contemplate it? Your suggestion for re-partition indicates so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    At the relatively superficial football team level, Third Policeman and I have rehashed the argument on here a few times. It tends to go like this:

    TP: A single all-Ireland team wouldn't simply take over NI; the Republic's team would disappear too

    GR: Hardly, if it was playing all its matches in Dublin under a tricolor in front of McAleesenthal or Michael D singing the Soldier's Song

    TP: How do you know what the silent majority of NI fans think?

    GR: I can be pretty sure that at the very least, by definition, they want there to be a separate NI team...
    Hardly surprising if you persistently view it as mere absorption.....Dublin, tricolors, Amhrán na bhFiann,.....yada yada.

    Did alternate venues, neutral anthems etc, never enter the conversation?
    Last edited by The Fly; 13/04/2013 at 1:42 AM.

  10. #50
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Aren't you a republican, GR? Perhaps Irish unity would be your best chance of shaking off your undesired monarchy? Unionists might even have a greater say in controlling their own affairs in a new Ireland. The Ulster unionist bloc would amount to a much more significant minority in an all-island state than it does at present in the UK, with the added safeguard of a codified constitution.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
    Here's a curve ball. I'm thinking it's time Limerick left the Republic of Ireland ...an institution I've sadly come to conclude is essentially a (Dublin) city state with a (presumed) hinterland of the rest of the country. When I say I'm walking out the door with Limerick by the way I just mean the city -you can keep the wannabee Kerry-folk one encounters beyond Mungret though I'm taking our natural hinterlands and infrastructures such as the near starved to death shannon airport and the estuary ports with us.

    We'll forge our own path and we'll be fine. I'm toying with the idea of applying to join her majestys benevolent union. There's some local RSF gowls it'd really wind up for a bit of extra sport
    Alternatively you could lobby to join Massachussets. Next parish Boston and all that...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly
    A Federal Republic is hardly vague. It's an entirely new form of government for the island, as opposed to the unitary states that exist at present. If you require further description then it would have its own constitution, anthem etc. I haven't decided on economic, education, health or defence policies yet though. Perhaps that's better discussed at the time.

    Hardly surprising if you persistently view it as mere absorption.....Dublin, tricolors, Amhrán na bhFiann,.....yada yada.

    Did alternate venues, neutral anthems etc, never enter the conversation?
    It's vague without any detailed policies. It's not new, Sinn Fein were talking about it 30 years.

    IIRC, Lionel raised an interesting suggestion: that the IFA might agree to dissolve in favor a single united side, as a sop playing half the games in Belfast. But then suppose than ex-NI fans were unhappy with this and formed their own team, in due course playing other countries and possibly joining UEFA and FIFA. Yet you'd still have the other team playing half its games in Belfast...

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Invincible
    Aren't you a republican, GR? Perhaps Irish unity would be your best chance of shaking off your undesired monarchy? Unionists might even have a greater say in controlling their own affairs in a new Ireland. The Ulster unionist bloc would amount to a much more significant minority in an all-island state than it does at present in the UK, with the added safeguard of a codified constitution
    Heh.One of the small advantages of (previously) living in NI? The proportion of monarchists is only half that in England, Scotland or Wales

    Not sure how that Unionist bloc would use the large minority to benefit its electorate. Devolution? Permanent single-issue nationality politics? Irrelevance? Hard to say.

    You're joking about the constitution surely? Its articles two and three denied reality for 60 years

  12. #52
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    You're joking about the constitution surely? Its articles two and three denied reality for 60 years
    What's the relevance of two articles that were removed a decade and a half ago? I thought you were looking towards the future...

  13. #53
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    What's the relevance of two articles that were removed a decade and a half ago? I thought you were looking towards the future...
    That they were allowed to remain for so long last time? Point taken though.

  14. #54
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    Ha, there is no chance of this fanciful re-partition. As there's no public appetite or demand. Not least from either DUP/SF who represent around 85% of active voters.

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    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepingpartner View Post
    Ha, there is no chance of this fanciful re-partition. As there's no public appetite or demand. Not least from either DUP/SF who represent around 85% of active voters
    DUP/SF combined vote share in 2010 General Election: 50.5%

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/elect...s/region/6.stm

  16. #56
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    My mistake. Meant of the voters who decide seats. With the SDLP included. Anyway none of these 3 parties are campaigning for this or showing any inclination to do so.

  17. #57
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    And whilst the notion of it may be fanciful or fantastic we are here to discuss it in in hypothetics.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  18. #58
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    Which is also mainly farcical.

  19. #59
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepingpartner View Post
    Which is also mainly farcical.
    Be that as you may think. You are under no obligation to partake or to view this thread.
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

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    Yes of course that worked.

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