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Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #21
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    Then you're not really a nationalist then, sorry.
    Why not?

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    Then you're not really a nationalist then, sorry.
    I am.

    However, when the option is given to me I can alter my beliefs to suit what I believe is best for me and my country.

    So after the vote I may not fit your nationalist ideal (and to be honest I doubt I do anyway as it stands) and I'd be okay with that but until the option is given to me and the rest of my nation I remain a Nationalist who wishes for reunification of my WHOLE country into one jursidiction.
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    You can't be a wee bit pregnant or a part time vegan.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    You can't be a wee bit pregnant or a part time vegan.
    We are talking in hypotheticals here.

    So then define my politics please if I am not a Nationalist?

    Also, if it was put to you for the Free State to subsume parts of Fatdad would you vote yes or are you an all-or-nothing kinda guy?
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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    A nationalist is somebody who aspires for all Irish people in Ireland to live together as a single political society. Some nationalists choose to interpret this as having to include self-identifying British people on the island of Ireland (who are actively opposed to the idea of living in a united Ireland), others don't, and more still are pragmatic like BS.

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    I'm not declaring as anything in particular, although I do have my political opinions. You are the one who claimed to be an unashamed nationalist who went on to state that you'd jump at the chance to jettison, and I'm second guessing a bit here, a sizeable chunk of northern nationalists (your fellow nationalists) for a quiet life. It just seems a strange way for an unashamed nationalist to be thinking to me. In your dreams you'd like to see Unity but if the going gets tough self interest takes over. Which is fair enough just don't call yourself an irish nationalist. You know where you stand with a unionist.

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    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culloty82
    but can't see how the GFA could be adapted for any re-partition scheme
    Replace it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeping Partner
    Somebody was talking about redrawing the border. Not very likely from a unionist perspective. Thoughts about turkeys and Xmas sprung to mind
    You do realise that redrawing the border is basically what Unionists did in 1920?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geysir
    Okay, as it stands now 'we' can take back South Down, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and Belfast. On second thoughts, keep the Tyronies, let them stew for another decade
    Aye, your local towns are going to transfer too. Renamed as Kefla-wicklow and Achill-eyri.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Invincible
    Unless my memory deceives me, you formerly insisted that 50 per cent plus one of the north's electorate voting in favour of Irish unity would not be sufficient for the motion to pass as the concern of a majority of unionists would also have to be considered. Essentially, that would amount to a unionist veto - which I understood you to be (once) advocating - but nowhere is a provision for such included in the terms of the GFA. Have you since modified your stance?
    Hardly. 50% + 1 just wouldn't work because of its inherent instability, not because anyone had a veto.If you choose to interpret my preference for self-determination for a large localised population as a veto, you'll just stay in that blind alley with no hope of a united Ireland in the foreseeable.

    More fool unionism for dragging a significant unwilling minority into matters and wanting to keep them there; then, apparently agreeing to a blueprint for Irish unity with them
    Quoting your old mate Jim Allister again?

    I don't agree. GFA included much that barely any Unionists supported, but many of us thought that worth enduring if it meant an end to 30 years of day-to-day paramilitary violence. If/ when it looks likely to act as your blueprint, Unionists will entirely democratically look to agree something better.

    I might as well be honest that unity would ultimately be my first principle if it really came down to it - in that I don't think I would have it in me to vote against it were the opportunity ever to arise - but I would prefer if that was achieved via bi-communal consent and without unionists feeling coerced by a hypothetical nationalist majority. That would be an ideal
    That's nice, and thanks for the offer, but we aren't interested. So do you want to parley something more realistic or not?

    Sure, but we're talking about the future and obligations in time
    No-one's obliged to fulfil a deal that's been replaced.

    Are you suggesting the GFA is no longer workable? Continually switching the goal-posts isn't inspiring politics. It's inconsiderate, patronising and disrespectful of the minority to intend to go back on promises. What about what they might want?
    No, I've said specifically that it may be in the foreseeable future (in another 15 years, say). So actually nobody is suggesting moving goalposts. The real patronisation is spending decades arguing for something while doing nothing in practice to achieve even a fraction of it.

    Instability would only be a concern if one or both blocs were to go back on their promises and obligations.
    I know you've repeated this so long that you believe it, but it simply isn't realistic. Renegotiating a bilateral deal isn't a breach of promise, and doesn't carry all previously agreed obligations into any new deal.

    Besides, it's not as if NI has been a bastion of stability throughout its short existence. Any decision, no matter how fine the majority, is likely to disgruntle a significant minority
    Northern Ireland has indeed been unstable since the 1920s, basically as a border region between the British and Irish states. And there was similar instability in the previous centuries. Any political agreement should seek to reduce that instability. I'm suggesting that including as many people as possible on their preferred side of the border is the best way to achieve this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
    Is 51% an appropriate threshhold where secession or unifying states is concerned?
    50% + 1 is silly because obviously all you need is Mrs O'Kelly not to turn up at the next election, and the result changes.

    52- 53% is unreliable because it's within the margin of error to allow for even NI's minority of floating voters, or freakish conditions like the recent bad weather.

    The 55% I suggested clearly wouldn't mean the end of sizeable opposition, just that the next result was unlikely to contradict.

    As others suggest, Nationalists would present any result better than 50% + 1 as 85% (or whatever it was) massively endorsing unity. They probably wouldn't risk a simultaneous election in the South though, just to be on the safe side

    Quote Originally Posted by Fly
    The problem with reunification is that it is always framed in the context of Northern Ireland being simply absorbed into the Republic
    Er, how else do you suggest framing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonnie Shels
    I think that whilst I'm an unashamed nationalist if it boiled down to giving up the ideal of a United Ireland in exchange for reunification of portion of Fatdad with the Free State I would jump at it... and then vote yes without question
    A pragmatic offer there from Bonnie and Gastric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Punkrocket
    Then you're not really a nationalist then, sorry... You know where you stand with a unionist
    Did you consult the ghosts of Redmond, Collins and Eddie Coll before press-releasing that?

    You obviously don't realise that your stance is contradicted by this very thread, ie both unionist and nationalist posters looking to compromise.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    A nationalist is somebody who aspires for all Irish people in Ireland to live together as a single political society. Some nationalists choose to interpret this as having to include self-identifying British people on the island of Ireland (who are actively opposed to the idea of living in a united Ireland), others don't, and more still are pragmatic like BS.
    I wanted him to define what was wrong with my stance Charlie. No need for your succintness here.

    Though I take umbridge that the difference between Unionism and Nationalism is simply a case of one group wanting a United Ireland and the other wanting partition.

    Unionism should be framed as wishing for Ireland to be part of the United Kingdom as a unified territory as it was from 1801-1922.

    Ulster Unionism as it is today is framed based on what has happened post-1922. Partition is not the wish for all but a the reality we have.

    If we look at Unionism in this context you can reach common-ground between the two concepts much readily.

    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    I'm not declaring as anything in particular, although I do have my political opinions. You are the one who claimed to be an unashamed nationalist who went on to state that you'd jump at the chance to jettison, and I'm second guessing a bit here, a sizeable chunk of northern nationalists (your fellow nationalists) for a quiet life. It just seems a strange way for an unashamed nationalist to be thinking to me. In your dreams you'd like to see Unity but if the going gets tough self interest takes over. Which is fair enough just don't call yourself an irish nationalist. You know where you stand with a unionist.
    I did claim to be an unashamed Nationalist. And one whose idea of Nationalism may differ from your green-tinted view I'm sure.

    I fail to see how I am jettisoning anyone? What would happen in this hypothetical scenario and as already been mentioned over in the Eligibility thread from which this thread gestated, would mean that (in my mind) Fermanagh (the family seat), Tyrone, West Derry and South Armagh all coming under the jurisdiction of an Independent Irish State. and the rest remaining as they were within the United Kingdom. Now I picked those particular areas for ****s and giggles to be honest but insert whatever you want. The major Nationalist centres in the remaining rump NE corner; mainly in Moyle, South Down and West Belfast will continue along with their status quo. How am I jettisoning them? They are and would remain as part of teh United Kingdom.

    I'm curious to see how the going could get tough or even tougher from where it is now. This is an excercise in discussion. Nothing more.
    If the going got tough and we extracted a concession which would see more of this State including parts of the Six I don't see how we could refuse it.

    Where do I stand with a Unionist? Side-by-side with a fellow Irishman who has a different definition of his Irishness.

    I call myself Irish. Nothing more and nthing less. I will never be anything else.
    My politics can be defined as Nationalist; that you disagree with that is your wont.
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    Who says I don't want to compromise? I haven't mentioned my personal politics yet. My issue is with people claiming to be something that they are not.
    A for the thread, the title of his thread is an either/or job, united or repartitioned. Now if it's united then you are a nationalist if it's repartitioned it's, lets not call it partitionist as this may be construed as offensive, is repartitionist okay? Aspiring to be nationalist if the price is right?
    A unionist can continue to claim to be a unionist even if repartition reduces NI to Castlereagh Borough anyone who claims to be an unashamed nationalist who settles for anything other than unity has to think of another name for himself. Letsgetalongerist is popular these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    And one whose idea of Nationalism may differ from your green-tinted view I'm sure.
    Again with the assumptions.

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    BS at the moment the 2 "sides" are approaching parity, are you seriously trying to tell me that reducing the relative size of one of these to the other would be welcomed by them as it is in "Ireland's" greater interests and not felt as anything other than being abandoned. Your understanding the northern nationalist is less than I thought

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    BS at the moment the 2 "sides" are approaching parity, are you seriously trying to tell me that reducing the relative size of one of these to the other would be welcomed by them as it is in "Ireland's" greater interests and not felt as anything other than being abandoned. Your understanding the northern nationalist is less than I thought
    My my my.

    Firstly learn to use the multi-quote function.

    My understanding of northern nationalism is pretty bang-on I would wager. However, you singularly fail to see, as GR pointed out, the point of this thread.

    You've accused me of making assumptions about your politics and yet when I make statements trying to allay any misunderstanding you may have you go and make assumptions of your own.
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    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    I really am spending a lot of time on that internet, it needs to stop. Possibly with a ban. So, I call on the mods and Mr D Hamster to consider re-admitting Mr Bhoy of Ardee to the discussion...
    Last edited by Gather round; 12/04/2013 at 3:46 PM.

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  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    A unionist can continue to claim to be a unionist even if repartition reduces NI to Castlereagh Borough anyone who claims to be an unashamed nationalist who settles for anything other than unity has to think of another name for himself. Letsgetalongerist is popular these days
    Some variation on the thread, excellent. We've had straw man arguments, now it's a reduction to absurdity.

    BS at the moment the 2 "sides" are approaching parity, are you seriously trying to tell me that reducing the relative size of one of these to the other would be welcomed by them
    Are you seriously trying to claim that 50/50 is approached by 58/42?

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    Is the point of the thread letsgetalong?

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    Is the point of the thread letsgetalong?
    No, it's not. May I point you in the direction of Eligibility thread.

    Start reading from here.

    Maybe that will give you an idea that this thread didn't just spring up.
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    It's Da South Danny.
    Fly educates Da South.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Not instability in that sense. If the threshhold is 50%+1, then the next day the result could be drastically different. That's what a supermajority guards against - even if there is a demographic shift or change in voter preference or whatever, the decision is still strong enough that it won't suddenly become the minority preference.
    Only the one result would count as final - it would indicate the opinion of the electorate at a particular chosen moment in time - as with the results of all elections and referenda. (Unless it's the Lisbon Treaty...) So long as the pre-set criteria are satisifed, what might have been the previous day or what might be the following day is inconsequential. Besides, if the motion were to pass, the former electorate would no longer be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Hardly. 50% + 1 just wouldn't work because of its inherent instability, not because anyone had a veto.
    In what way would it be necessarily unworkable?

    I don't agree. GFA included much that barely any Unionists supported, but many of us thought that worth enduring if it meant an end to 30 years of day-to-day paramilitary violence. If/ when it looks likely to act as your blueprint, Unionists will entirely democratically look to agree something better.
    If you supported the GFA, does it really matter what euphemism is used?

    And what would be entirely democratic about it if nationalism wasn't prepared to play ball?

    No-one's obliged to fulfil a deal that's been replaced.
    Why ought nationalists be compelled to toe the line on this?

    Er, how else do you suggest framing it?
    Unity isn't necessarily the same thing as absorption/subsumption.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    subsumption.
    What a grotesque word. Awful.
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    First Team Not Brazil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkrocket View Post
    BS at the moment the 2 "sides" are approaching parity, are you seriously trying to tell me that reducing the relative size of one of these to the other would be welcomed by them as it is in "Ireland's" greater interests and not felt as anything other than being abandoned.
    Curious as to how you would define "the 2 sides", and in what way(s) they are approaching parity?

    I do tend to agree with your interpretation of what Irish Nationalism means.
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    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Invincible
    Only the one result would count as final - it would indicate the opinion of the electorate at a particular chosen moment in time - as with the results of all elections and referenda. (Unless it's the Lisbon Treaty...) So long as the pre-set criteria are satisifed, what might have been the previous day or what might be the following day is inconsequential. Besides, if the motion were to pass, the former electorate would no longer be
    That would create what I once heard described as an equity problem- ie, Nationalists can have effective border polls time and again until they get the desired result. Yet Unionists would be unable to change it, because the new all-Ireland constituency would leave them as a semi-permanent minority of about 15%. Or alternatively...

    In what way would it be necessarily unworkable?
    There would be a real possibility of the result being reversed, maybe quite quickly. Unionist media lobbies etc. would demand another election, maybe multiple recounts of the first one, there would be a rash of opinion polls commissioned and the like. Inherent instability. While you'd be left to plead "But you promised, 15/30/45 years ago!"

    If you supported the GFA, does it really matter what euphemism is used?
    Heh. Although not quite touche. I'm not fudging having supported it in the past, I accept it as the current deal in the present.

    And what would be entirely democratic about it if nationalism wasn't prepared to play ball?
    Come on, it doesn't need total agreement on everything to be democratic.

    Why ought nationalists be compelled to toe the line on this?
    The only compulsion would be to recognise that events have moved on. If Nationalists won't parley, and as a result Unionists give notice to withdraw from the GFA, we could be back to a 1920 situation with all the hassle that followed.

    Unity isn't necessarily the same thing as absorption/subsumption
    Agreed in principle, but in practice I think the onus is on you and Fly to spell out the detail. Or, as I put it previously, to sell Unity to the Unionists.

    I saw SF's broadcast on TV last night. Unfortunately, in three minutes (half of which was Gerry stumbling through some Irish translations) we didn't really get far.

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