Beecher Networks - Web Development, Hosting & Domains
Page 28 of 30 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 LastLast
Results 541 to 560 of 584

Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #541
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Except SF/SDLP are generally light years of FF & FG, even with all their associated baggage.

    Modern progressive parties barely exist on the whole island, another legacy of the Brits interference.
    Last edited by Wolfman; 16/01/2018 at 11:11 PM.

  2. #542
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    @ Fly

    1 I think Nationalists should try to sell a UI- it makes that 55%+ support and a smooth transition more likely. In the short term it's likely that a lot of Alliance voters will look to the Unionists- Fear of a Fenian Planet basically (even if they've spent £80 on a new passport)

    2 I imagine the by election will have a low turnout (as usual) and SDLP will catch up a bit. Unionists are so far behind they might just go with 2 candidates

    3 I know FF and FG are shy of fighting NI elections. That said one of SF's ex councillors in Omagh has now joined the Soldiers of Destiny, so why not give it a go?

    4 SF aren't fronting with their core belief (ie that a UI is inevitable past, present and future and a few shootings or paralysis of local govt are just collateral damage). Instead , the leadership have convinced their activists, wider opinion at home and abroad and perhaps even themselves that they're a rainbow coalition of human rights liberation lobbies. Until brainless Barry let it slip, alas

    5 Ideally I'd like a few things none of which look likely for now. Variously

    - Stormont to return then
    - actually pass some laws incl on Language, Marriage and Abortion
    - some way to have voluntary coalition or flexible co-operation
    - Brexit to be abandoned
    - Brussels to give me a passport, in return I promise to drink Kriek, add mayo to chips and read Tintin in the original
    Last edited by Gather round; 17/01/2018 at 9:07 AM.

  3. #543
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    So just another day in cloud cuckoo land?

    Shouldn't you be campaigning for another referendum then?
    The EU would welcome this.

  4. #544
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the gutter, but looking at the stars
    Posts
    11,479
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,729
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,309
    Thanked in
    1,522 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post

    Modern progressive parties barely exist on the whole island, another legacy of the Brits interference.
    Is there anything the Brits can't be blamed for?
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

  5. Thanks From:


  6. #545
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Lots. But the whole island was set up on the premise of Divide-and-rule and this is its political legacy sadly.

  7. #546
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the gutter, but looking at the stars
    Posts
    11,479
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,729
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,309
    Thanked in
    1,522 Posts
    I cannot see how the British can be blamed for the state of politics in the Republic. That's on us.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

  8. Thanks From:


  9. #547
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    It shouldn't be, but look at the history of the vast majority of parties on the island.

  10. #548
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,067
    Thanked in
    573 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    @ Fly

    1 I think Nationalists should try to sell a UI- it makes that 55%+ support and a smooth transition more likely. In the short term it's likely that a lot of Alliance voters will look to the Unionists- Fear of a Fenian Planet basically (even if they've spent £80 on a new passport)
    I agree but it's nearly impossible to do so when we don't have the political outlets to do it. It's very frustrating as a voter generally.

    I appreciate and sympathise with unionist fears. All I can say is that for me this New Ireland (I prefer not to use the term united Ireland) isn't about some sort of victory over unionists. That doesn't feature in my thinking at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    3 I know FF and FG are shy of fighting NI elections. That said one of SF's ex councillors in Omagh has now joined the Soldiers of Destiny, so why not give it a go?
    Well I wish they'd get over their shyness. I firmly believe that Sinn Fein would haemorrhage votes to them if they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    4 SF aren't fronting with their core belief (ie that a UI is inevitable past, present and future and a few shootings or paralysis of local govt are just collateral damage). Instead , the leadership have convinced their activists, wider opinion at home and abroad and perhaps even themselves that they're a rainbow coalition of human rights liberation lobbies. Until brainless Barry let it slip, alas
    Front and centre as in they're never shy in talking about it.

    & I can totally get how the way they have wrapped themselves in the equality banner winds people up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    5 Ideally I'd like a few things none of which look likely for now. Variously

    - Stormont to return then
    - actually pass some laws incl on Language, Marriage and Abortion
    - some way to have voluntary coalition or flexible co-operation
    - Brexit to be abandoned
    - Brussels to give me a passport, in return I promise to drink Kriek, add mayo to chips and read Tintin in the original
    In other words - Stormont to return with reform of the petition of concern; whistling in the wind with talk of Brexit reversal; & keeping an eye on this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42707383

  11. #549
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    You're seriously suggesting vast numbers of SF voters would vote FF/FG in the North?
    Why...

  12. #550
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    @ Fly

    1 That's a bit pessimistic surely? Even without Stormont or a wider range of MPs there are still ways for broad N & U opinion to discuss compromise

    2 It's Unionists own fault/ choice that they are seen (as) only negative(ly), including by themselves. That isn't likely to change soon and of course SF play up to it. If gormlessly in recent days. The name for any new structure matters little

    3 Any broad estimate of how many votes FF or FG would get in WT?

    4 What winds me up is the offhand attitude to day to day issues of local govt- health, education, housing etc. I've no problems with them pretending to be a Rainbow Coalition too and as I suggested I want Bradley to enact for gay marriage and the rest immediately. Remember that I've had 40 years of not believing much that SF say, but as long as there's no return to a shooting war that's not the biggest stumbling block

    5 Whoa- I have always opposed the P of C- partly as the DUP esp have abused it, partly cos I don't like legalese or the sociological waffle I gently chided you for above. When there are 2 blocs of 45% it's almost inevitable that they'll need to do some sort of coalition eventually

    6 The passport thing was a joke. I can get one from Dublin tomorrow. Half the Rathcoole UDA already have, so I'm told

  13. #551
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    If FF/FG stood on a Joint ticket promising a united Ireland tomorrow, they'd be derided by most nationalists in the North.
    They'd lose their deposit.

  14. #552
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,067
    Thanked in
    573 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    You're seriously suggesting vast numbers of SF voters would vote FF/FG in the North?
    Why...
    I'm saying that large numbers of nationalists in the North would.
    Last edited by The Fly; 18/01/2018 at 2:36 PM.

  15. #553
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Lol.
    Any evidence of that?
    For those under say 60?

  16. #554
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,067
    Thanked in
    573 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    Lol.
    Any evidence of that?
    For those under say 60?
    Nope it's all anecdotal, but if you think that the majority of nationalists are natural SF voters then you're deluded.

    FG & FF are the parties of government in the South so they don't need run on a 'ticket promising a united Ireland tomorrow'. It's kind of implicit. The SDLP will have been, or will be, wound-up in this scenario btw.
    Last edited by The Fly; 18/01/2018 at 3:06 PM.

  17. #555
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    The vast majority will be until a UI arrives, then they. will fragment into special interest groups, but I have never met anyone from the North, with any great urge to vote FF/FG.

    And who could blame them?
    As even the Rotund waffler states, they have had virtually no interest in helping Northern nationalists for decades.

  18. #556
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,067
    Thanked in
    573 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    The vast majority will be until a UI arrives
    SF get the majority of the nationalist vote because they exist in a kind of vacuum of choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    but I have never met anyone from the North, with any great urge to vote FF/FG.
    How could they have the urge when they aren't able to vote for them?

    The SDLP fulfilled their purpose with the GFA and went into a natural decline thereafter. In this post-Brexit world we're all living in now more all-island choices are needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    And who could blame them?
    As even the Rotund waffler states, they have had virtually no interest in helping Northern nationalists for decades.
    I'm talking about the here and now - that's what matters.

  19. #557
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    @ Fly

    1 You're being either unrealistic or facetious above on reasons for the SDLP's decline. Voters in NI have 3 options- Unionist, Nationalist or Others (led by Alliance). It doesn't really matter how many mini parties there are in the 2 big blocks- one of each will still dominate because voters see the others as less effective in soothing that Fear of an Orange/ Fenian Planet. SDLP are much closer to SF than to anyone else and have to be- any serious flirtation with the UUP and they'd lose support to SF on the one hand and maybe Alliance on the other

    2 So they're basically knackered until they fold into a Dublin party, or disband. Which is a problem if FF/ FG don't stand until a UI is achieved- that may still take decades. If the SDLP fulfilled their purpose in 1998 they should have either realigned then* or done a better job of opposition since

    3 * which had already happened before, when the Hume/ Mallon leadership saw off Fitt and Devlin in the late 70s. They haven't been credibly left-wing since

  20. #558
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,340
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,067
    Thanked in
    573 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    @ Fly

    1 You're being either unrealistic or facetious above on reasons for the SDLP's decline. Voters in NI have 3 options- Unionist, Nationalist or Others (led by Alliance). It doesn't really matter how many mini parties there are in the 2 big blocks- one of each will still dominate because voters see the others as less effective in soothing that Fear of an Orange/ Fenian Planet. SDLP are much closer to SF than to anyone else and have to be- any serious flirtation with the UUP and they'd lose support to SF on the one hand and maybe Alliance on the other

    2 So they're basically knackered until they fold into a Dublin party, or disband. Which is a problem if FF/ FG don't stand until a UI is achieved- that may still take decades. If the SDLP fulfilled their purpose in 1998 they should have either realigned then* or done a better job of opposition since

    3 * which had already happened before, when the Hume/ Mallon leadership saw off Fitt and Devlin in the late 70s. They haven't been credibly left-wing since
    Depressing as it may seem I think it was entirely predictable that SF and the DUP became the largest parties in the years after the GFA. It was almost like a marking of territory with each community electing the ‘strongest’ and certainly loudest advocates for each respective constitutional position. Anecdotally I would say that there is a kind of lament amongst most nationalists over the fortunes of the SDLP but a tacit acceptance that the party had fulfilled their raison d’être with the GFA and went into a kind of natural decline. That their big hitters left the scene soon after merely hastened this.

    Dealing with the here and now - they can no longer compete with Sinn Fein because they're not an all-island party; it matters little where they position themselves on the left-right political spectrum or what job they do in opposition. NI is engaged in an electoral tit for tat; a kind of sectarian race to the bottom where a 'sensible, middle of the road' party is never going to eclipse that tribal pull. It's the f*cking pits!

    You stated earlier that nationalists need to sell a united Ireland more and I agree, but the only way to do that, particularly in this post-Brexit landscape, is by having FG & FF standing for elections in NI.
    Last edited by The Fly; 18/01/2018 at 7:19 PM.

  21. #559
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    2,692
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    248
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    751
    Thanked in
    485 Posts
    It seems to me there needs to be a realignment in the south as much as the North. The opportunity was there in 2011 but rather than Labour forming a centre-left opposition against a centre-right FG government they were attacked by the ephemeral sugar rush of being junior coalition partners. The bloody fools.

    The SDLP are now holding back nationalism in the North. It is a idea of It's time, but It's time is up. History will judge them well, but their options are either for the factions of the party to go their separate ways, or to face oblivion.

    I think they would do much better if they split though. A northern wing of Labour could do well in Belfast, at least at assembly and council level. Similarly I think FF would do well West of the Bann among better at heel nationalists. Harder to see a natural base for FG but many nationalists, myself included, have been impressed by Varadkar & Coveney so even that isn't impossible
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

  22. #560
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the gutter, but looking at the stars
    Posts
    11,479
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,729
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,309
    Thanked in
    1,522 Posts
    There needs to be serious consideration given to changes in how the Stormont executive works.. since it very clearly doesn't. Both tribes have gone to the extremes and the DUP and SF have no incentive to moderate as they thrive on bashing and aggravating the other side. This is massively unhealthy in terms of trying to heal a society with deep sectarian issues. And massively unhealthy in terms of trying to achieve something resembling good governance. Or as has been the case recently- any governance.

    But the most urgent thing is to end segregated education. To me that's one of the biggest things that needs to happen to move towards a better future. A secular education system where everyone mixes freely would have huge long term benefits. But the 2 biggest parties and indeed the churches have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo so I won't be holding my breath.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

Page 28 of 30 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11/08/2017, 1:55 PM
  2. Merge the FAI and IFA (United Ireland Discussion)
    By Not Brazil in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 25/11/2009, 11:52 AM
  3. Replies: 169
    Last Post: 12/09/2007, 7:32 PM
  4. Replies: 28
    Last Post: 13/10/2005, 3:51 PM
  5. Ireland v Switzerland - Pre-match discussion
    By thejollyrodger in forum Ireland
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: 12/10/2005, 10:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •