Meagher wrote the following complementary piece a few days ago; 'Northern Ireland is leaving the union - it's only a question of when': http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-an...ving-the-union
Originally Posted by Kevin Meagher
It's sure to be quite the week. No end of questions which will be answered on way or the other. first and foremost over the funeral
Will there be any IRA symbols? Beret and gloves on the coffin?
Is he to be buried in the republican plot?
Do the unionists go? Ian Paisley almost certainly will which puts his colleagues under pressure.
Does the British govt send someone. It would be unthinkable that the Theresa May wouldn't go to the funeral of a Scottish or Welsh FM.
The IFA have a big problem on their hands. How do they not have a minutes silence/applause on Sunday? But how likely is it to be respected...
And there is surely no possibility of getting a deal all Stormont this week with all this going on. Between them they will have to come up with a mechanism to buy more time
All bumps on the road between now and starting again next Monday morning
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Ruth Dudley-Edwards on BBC saying unity had never been further away due to him and his ilk and that unity would have to have grown organically through business links etc. Also she fully expects SF to now dwindle away particularly south of the border.
Of course, yes RDE, the Unionists would have coughed up gerrymandered supremacy after a few more civil rights marches, and SF vote share is evaporating election on election.
Jesus Christ, BBC finally give some time to NI and that's who they wheel out, absolutely woejus. Some dude from the Uni of Manchester or Liverpool (can't remember which) absolutely put her to shame.
What show was that on, CTP?
Ruth Dudley-Edwards is a special class of troll. Her brand of nonsense will always have a receptive audience on both sides of the Irish Sea, unfortunately, and there'll always be people outraged enough to keep clicking.
She was on Newsnight.
Ruth is as partisan as they come; a charlatan professing to be an historian. It is disappointing that she was given such a prominent platform and was presented to a British audience - who, as you say, CTP, get very little serious or in-depth insight into Irish affairs through their media - as a neutral or reasonable voice representing the Irish journalistic realm, but, of course, it's not as if she was chosen by the BBC at random.
Most serious pundits acknowledge that Sinn Féin are a growing force in the south and will be in government in the near future. Upper-class anglophiles like Ruth may find it a bitter pill to swallow, but Sinn Féin are increasingly the party of the younger voting generations. To suggest Sinn Féin's rise will just peter out in the south because Martin McGuinness has passed away is genuinely outlandish and lacks coherence as a point. Why would his death negatively affect Sinn Féin's southern momentum? What's the supposed link?
She also claimed there was no desire for unity in Ireland, north or south, right now. Where has she been? Recent polls in the south indicate majority support for unity.
Analyse controversial aspects of McGuinness' past, certainly - there's plenty in his more distant past that is worthy of critical reflection and the Coshquin "human proxy bomb" was a particularly troubling incident that occurred within hearing distance of my house and for which Martin almost certainly gave the go-ahead (or at least would have had the authority to stop, yet didn't) - but when, say, Tony Blair passes, I wonder will the BBC be interviewing surviving family members of Iraqis killed by the bombs and military actions sanctioned by Blair? Hardly. The hypocrisy and rank double standards of the British establishment media are hard to stomach.
Also, any analysis of McGuinness' life and past that omits mention of the repressive and impoverished circumstances that directly moulded him and led to him joining the IRA in the first place - unionist oppression and discrimination buttressed by the jackboots and guns of the British army - is sorely lacking in credibility. The primary motivating factor for most IRA volunteers joining up was simply a wish - in desperate circumstances - to defend and protect their families, friends, streets and communities against violent intrusions by sectarian state forces and against pogroms by belligerent loyalist mobs as the state stood idly by. As Eamonn McCann put it:
The appeal and sense of purpose, belonging, protection and solution presented by joining the IRA was greater for hundreds of young men and women in nationalist communities than what an inhospitable statelet and bent status quo had to offer them, which was poverty, alienation, insecurity, vulnerability, pain, frustration, anger, paranoia and panic. Joining the IRA was a rational response to their immediate material and structural conditions; it was a symptom of lived experience within a system that was, at best, neglectful or suspicious of the nationalist community and, at worst, hostile towards it on account of contrasting political, social, cultural and national outlooks.Originally Posted by Eamonn McCann
Norman Tebbit made the claim earlier that the only reason the British army decided to pay the north of Ireland a visit was in order to protect people from the IRA. This was utter baloney. The British army were sent in with what Fintan O'Toole described as a "colonial mentality" to buttress the unionist status quo after the nationalist community revolted (through civil disobedience and rioting) against their condition en masse in the Bogside and elsewhere around the north in 1969. Operation Banner commenced in August of 1969 to quell the Battle of the Bogside. There was no seriously organised IRA at the time; just a few lads, organised in a ramshackle fashion, manning barricades around areas like Free Derry for defensive purposes. The Provos emerged months later in December of 1969 as an organisation initially focused on the more concerted defence of nationalist areas and only went on a higher-intensity offensive against what they and many within the nationalist community regarded as the occupying British army after 1971 and 1972 when incidents like the Ballymurphy massacre and Bloody Sunday, along with the British state's failed policy of internment without trial, considerably boosted support for and recruitment into the organisation. Norman Tebbit could do with some reading up on his history.
By the way, the other guest on Newsnight with Dudley-Edwards was Jonathan Tonge from the University of Liverpool. He provided a welcome antidote to Dudley-Edwards' drivel.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 22/03/2017 at 3:19 PM.
Which largely ignores the same big issues that the book does. To be fair to Meagher, he says in the introduction that it's a polemic more than a work of political science. He sees unionists largely as ciphers and grotesques and uses that as justification to avoid talking to them.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
To be less fair, he isn't just a jobbing journo but ex-SPAD to Shaun Woodward as NI SoS. Potentially quite influential, but in practice the pair of them did basically nothing to achieve what KM says is inevitable. As I mentioned upthread, it's 100% certain in the same way as Labour leading a majority government or Liverpool (who KM supports) winning the EPL
Agreed, that doesn't make much sense. In a separate BBC interview this morning, RDE claimed that MMG was the brains of the outfit and with Adams as main/ sole front guy it will flounder. As if SF was just the two of themWhy would his death negatively affect Sinn Féin's southern momentum?
This is pretty overblown, history as Hovis advert. Violent protest against discrimination and intimidation was rational; a shooting war for 25 years after specific grievances (housing, electoral etc.) were addressed clearly something else.Also, any analysis of McGuinness' life that omits mention of the repressive and impoverished circumstances that directly moulded him and led to him joining the IRA in the first place
There'll be a minute for Ryan McBride. They should justify not extending it to Marty because quite clearly it wouldn't be respected . I will probably be in the toilets or concourse at the time; my grudging respect for ex-paramilitaries doesn't extend to applauding them.Originally Posted by BacksToTheWall
I expect P O'Neill will manage more shots than M O'Neill junior does on Sunday.
Wishful thinking probably. I suppose it depends largely on when/ whether they join or lead a government and then start getting blamed for running the countryOriginally Posted by CraftyToePoke
It fell successively in the 2014, 2015 and 2016 NI elections...SF vote share is evaporating election on election
Hmm, more factual inaccuracies. There's a surprise.
Foster is reported to be "undecided" on attending: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-35554737.html
It would be exceptionally poor form if she refused to attend the funeral of her deputy and it would rightly be perceived as another snub of the nationalist/republican community. It's unfortunate that she appears more concerned by losing some votes to hardliners than paying respect to a colleague - her deputy - and seems completely oblivious to the massive amount of respect that a gesture such as her mere attendance at the funeral would win in return from broader society. It might actually help the DUP blossom into a party that is seen as fit for dealing with the realities of the modern day. Clearly, she has learned very little from the election if she has to mull over whether or not it would be right for her to attend.
But I thought Windsor Park was now supposed to be a model beacon for this shared future they keep telling us about...The IFA have a big problem on their hands. How do they not have a minutes silence/applause on Sunday? But how likely is it to be respected...
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 22/03/2017 at 7:21 PM.
He actually used those words?
The two-tiered unionist statelet was explicitly discriminatory of nationalists for decades. You can't change prejudiced mindsets and corresponding senses of grievance overnight. Besides, unionism later rejected the possibility of power-sharing. The statelet's infrastructure was effectively discriminatory up until the Good Friday Agreement was agreed and safeguards against potential discrimination became enshrined in law. Even still, the concept of parity of esteem isn't being properly implemented. Sadly, the deep-rooted hostility of unreconstructed unionism towards Irish nationalism remains even today.This is pretty overblown, history as Hovis advert. Violent protest against discrimination and intimidation was rational; a shooting war for 25 years after specific grievances (housing, electoral etc.) were addressed clearly something else.
Addressing housing and electoral grievances didn't make life rosy for nationalists all of a sudden, and especially not for those in impoverished working-class areas like west Belfast and Derry's Bogside. There was still much to endure and resist. Throughout that quarter of a decade you mention, the British state and its agents were still killing and massacring innocent civilians. There was extensive state collusion with supposedly-illegal loyalist paramilitaries, there were extra-judicial killings emanating from a shoot-to-kill policy. Legalised death-squads were operating from within the British army in the form of the the Military Reaction Force, the Special Reconnaissance Unit and the Force Research Unit. There were false-flag operations, there was torture and abuse (including waterboarding) of detainees, there was mass internment of "suspects" (who ended up being overwhelmingly nationalist by an approximate ratio of 19:1) without trial, curfew tactics were employed against the nationalist community, there was widespread use of potentially-lethal rubber and plastic bullets (such use would never ever have been tolerated by the powers that be upon communities in Britain), there was the (ab)use of civilians and communities as "human shields", we had widespread intimidation and harassment of nationalist individuals and communities and there was the blowing up of border roads and bridges (thus depriving many communities of their social and economic potential). Weirdly, even black propaganda was utilised by the British state as a weapon against the local population. And so on... And all this within a supposed modern liberal democracy.
The mutually-agreed compromises negotiated and secured via a long and hard-won peace-process culminating in the 1998 Agreement included power-sharing and all-island institutions, equality, inclusivity, human and minority rights protections, recognition for the differing cultural identities and of the validity of the contrasting political aspirations of the people in the north of Ireland, parity-of-esteem, the demilitarisation of the region, the release of paramilitary prisoners, a constitutional blue-print for Irish unity whilst recognising the principle of consent and a new 50-50 cross-community police force. It's of little surprise that only then did armed resistance cease.
No time for reconciliation?There'll be a minute for Ryan McBride. They should justify not extending it to Marty because quite clearly it wouldn't be respected . I will probably be in the toilets or concourse at the time; my grudging respect for ex-paramilitaries doesn't extend to applauding them.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 22/03/2017 at 3:26 PM.
I'll post this here seeing as we've been discussing McGuinness and the circumstances that made him who he was. It's a really excellent piece by Philip O'Connor looking at the Irish media's response to his death: http://ourmaninstockholm.com/2017/03...in-mcguinness/
Originally Posted by Philip O'Connor
It seems not: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/no-...eral-1-7879517
Originally Posted by Mark Rainey
Hmmmm...Originally Posted by Mark Rainey
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
I saw it instantly. I have a sixth (county) sense for unionist underhandedness.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Loving the discussion on here even respecting gather round's opinions!. I have been living away from Ireland a long time, so I am not always au fait with present sentiments on Northern Ireland. Whilst polls suggest a majority in the ROI would support a united Ireland, would that not drop dramatically due to economic factors and potential violence? I ask because if I had the opportunity to vote, whilst emotionally committed to a united Ireland, practically I could not vote for something that might derail the south and economically compromise my family's future and safety. Am I completely out of touch or is this a sentiment shared by others?
Your fears are valid, sure, and don't be afraid to express them because it's good and important to have the debate. Unity-proponents have to be prepared for challenges and criticisms. Nevertheless, I'm confident that proponents can win the economic argument convincingly. I posted the following up-thread, which may be of interest:
(*The study in the second link there, which was peer-reviewed, was actually by Professor Kurt Huebner from Vancouver University; not Michael Burke. My mistake.)
In a recent poll, a slight majority of those who gave either a positive or negative response to the proposal posed still said they'd back unity even if it cost €9 billion a year: http://foot.ie/threads/219060-2017-N...=1#post1910038
NeverFeltBetter also posted the following a while back, which is relevant:
I suspect he was referring to these surveys: http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/201...oll-test-page/
I posted details up-thread a while back of another interesting poll conducted in the south post-Brexit that saw two thirds of those surveyed say they'd back unity tomorrow:
With regard to potential violence arising from loyalist objection, unity will also likely entail making constitutional changes that will hopefully reassure unionists/loyalists and help them feel at home in the new Ireland rather than have them feel like aliens in a nationalist-centric state.
Interestingly, the UK's Brexit decision has actually led to some unionists in the north of Ireland feeling a bit alienated now within a UK that is set to leave the EU (within which they wish to remain); some are now openly discussing and genuinely considering potential Irish unity (and remaining within the EU that way) as a solution to their woes. See:
The prospect of Scotland leaving the UK has also increased unionist uncertainty within the present arrangement. Unionists' strongest cultural ties are to Scotland really - they're Ulster-Scots, after all - rather than to England and/or Wales.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 23/03/2017 at 1:29 AM.
Sam McBride, political editor of the Newsletter, attempts to explain why Arlene has been unsure about attending Martin's funeral: https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/statu...32379557863437 and https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/statu...33247992762368
As another tweeter says there, a leader's gotta lead though, right?Originally Posted by Sam McBride
Meanwhile, McBride's article on how unionist leaders may soon experience nostalgia for McGuinness makes for interesting reading: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/sam...ness-1-7876915
Originally Posted by Sam McBride
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