Beecher Networks - Web Development, Hosting & Domains
Page 15 of 30 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 300 of 584

Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

  1. #281
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Nah, that's when he really was Iris's toyboy. Complete with loaded weapon?

  2. #282
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Danny preparing to cross the border:

    "A member of the British state's security forces manning the border", more like.

  3. #283
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    No look sniping
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  4. #284
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,282
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,318
    Thanked in
    852 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Don't believe the blather. "Technology" is the Brexiteer's fuzzword of choice when they're confronted on the question of a "hard" or "soft" border and it has often been deployed before Davis ever used it yesterday. I've heard Ian Paisley Junior and Arlene Foster trying to dubiously rely on it during debates in recent months and weeks. Edwin Poots even threw it out there without further clarification as to whatever the hell he meant by it on last night's Nolan Live.

    But what does it actually mean? It's a vague and ambiguous term that's just thrown about to fill the void of cluelessness. There's been next to no detail offered by the proponents of this "technology" model. How exactly will "technology" be able to monitor/check individual truck trailers, car boots and haulage/transport documents whilst simultaneously ensuring that there is a "soft" or "frictionless" border, as has been promised?

    And Davis can only speak from an internal UK perspective, so he's in absolutely no position to be giving guarantees for a "soft" border when reality is saying otherwise. He has no idea what sort of barriers and checks the EU will wish to place on the southern side of the Irish border in order to protect the political and economic integrity of the EU.

    Furthermore, unmanned "technology" (if it's even possible/viable in the first place) will be like a sitting duck for potential saboteurs objecting to the inconvenience, sense of separation/division and threat to privacy that incendiary and disruptive customs, border controls and/or security installations will cause in their border communities. And there will be plenty of potential and willing saboteurs.

    See the video here of a border community mobilising to remove a divisive reinforced concrete block from an "unapproved road" in the mid-1990s: https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85/...62289361985538

    Such blocks were positioned along dozens of minor border roads and bridges by the British army during the "Troubles" when they weren't blowing them up or getting involved in armed border stand-offs with the Irish state army.

    If present-day border communities decide to take similar undermining, disobedient and subversive action in a post-Brexit scenario against any newly-established infrastructure that will hit local economies, livelihoods and ways of life hard, I could hardly blame them. Jaysis, I might even join them myself!

    "Technology" will thus require 24-hour manned - possibly even armed - protection, which will, in turn, offer further sitting-duck targets for those malcontents who might be prepared to go one step further than non-violent direct action and civil disobedience/resistance in their battle against the border.

    The Norway-Sweden analogy won't even apply to the Irish border considering the UK is leaving the single market; both Norway and Sweden are party to the single market agreement and are also signatories of Schengen, so it's a totally different set of circumstances.

    Brexiteers also frequently claim that the Common Travel Area will continue to exist without issue on the entirely suspect basis that it existed before both the UK and Ireland joined the EEC/EC/EU, but this ignores a rather crucial fact; at no time have Ireland and the UK ever been on opposite sides of the EU's border. They've always been either both on the outside or both on the inside, but Brexit will change that for the first time, whereafter the Irish state will find itself still on the inside with Brexit UK having moved to the outside.

    The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.
    I take it you aren't convinced.

  5. Thanks From:


  6. #285
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,026
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,397
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,635
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Interesting article on RTÉ. The article itself is pretty dire and lightweight, but it's interesting that it is being discussed. Reunification is now a topic that's just going to keep being talked about.

    I like.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Murphy, RTÉ
    David Murphy: Reunification won't be easy
    There has been increasing debate about reunification as a hard Brexit looks far more likely.

    Leaving the politics aside, from the point of view of economics and particularly trade there are big hurdles.

    Those challenges have become even more daunting with the prospect of a hard Brexit, not less so.

    The North is running a deficit of £9.2 billion (€10.5 billion) per annum according to its Department of Finance.

    That is the gap between what it collects in taxes and what it spends. It is met by funding from Britain.

    That compares with a deficit of €1.2 billion in the Republic in 2017.

    Obviously if there was a 32-county Republic it would need financial support, possibly from the EU and Britain, to make reunification work.

    None of that is new but what has changed is the prospect of the UK leaving the EU’s Customs Union, which allows for tariff-free trade between member countries.


    That means levies would be imposed on goods and services travelling to and from Britain.

    Crucial to this consideration is this question: Where are the main export destinations for firms based in Northern Ireland?

    Figures from the Department of the Economy in the North for 2015 show sales (or exports) to Britain were £13.8 billion (€15.9 billion), exports to the Republic were £3.4 billion (€3.9 billion), while exports to the rest of the EU were £1.9 billion (€2.1 billion).

    In a nutshell, firms in the North are far more dependent on selling to Britain than companies in the Republic.

    A reunified Ireland would be inside the Customs Union with the border into the EU running the length of the Irish Sea.

    However, the firms in the North that had been dependent on exporting to Britain would find tariffs imposed on their exports to post-Brexit Britain.

    Those companies would need significant amounts of aid to survive and find new markets elsewhere.

    So not only would the 32-county state struggle with the existing deficit in the North, it would also face the mammoth task of re-orientating the exporting sector in the six counties.

    Reunification is a bit like Brexit itself, it is the complicated details that tend to be overlooked.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017...-wont-be-easy/
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  7. #286
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    I take it you aren't convinced.
    Heh, no, not quite. Could you tell?

    I don't tend to believe much that emanates from the mouths of (self-)serving Tories. So-called "liberals" and "right-thinking" people blame Trump for the supposedly-new phenomenon of "fake news", but haven't people heard of propaganda - or of its modern-day variant (since pervasive questionable and sinister usage by the US's Creel Committee during World War I, by the UK's Ministry of Information during both World Wars and by the Nazis before and during World War II led to a heavy tarnishing of the once-neutral term "propaganda"), public relations - which has existed and been moulding/distorting public consciousness/perception/understanding/discourse since time immemorial? We even have the term "perception management" now too. All very Orwellian and Machiavellian...

    The Tories are pastmasters at it. Think of Jeremy Hunt recently lying and manipulating studies, facts and figures to promote his blatant anti-NHS agenda, for example, just to single one of them out. He's so insincere, he even wears an NHS badge on his lapel! It's clear overcompensation, or a twee little facade behind which he conceals his ultimate privatisation designs, in other words.

  8. #287
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,069
    Thanked in
    574 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.
    Brexit is a very welcome thing imo.

  9. #288
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    Brexit is a very welcome thing imo.
    The inconvenience and hardship that Brexit will inflict upon Ireland and especially those in the border regions may well drive people to look for an alternative constitutional arrangement, so it may help the cause of Irish unity in the long run - which would undoubtedly be a silver lining and makes the whole thing a bit of a curate's egg in a way - but it will be disastrous in the short-term.

    Do you think it's a very welcome thing as it enhances the likelihood of unity or do you envisage other benefits?

  10. #289
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,342
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    370
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,069
    Thanked in
    574 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    The inconvenience and hardship that Brexit will inflict upon Ireland and especially those in the border regions may well drive people to look for an alternative constitutional arrangement, so it may help the cause of Irish unity in the long run - which would undoubtedly be a silver lining and makes the whole thing a bit of a curate's egg in a way - but it will be disastrous in the short-term.

    Do you think it's a very welcome thing as it enhances the likelihood of unity or do you envisage other benefits?
    Although I ultimately believe that Brexit will prove to be an act of great self-harm for the UK state, the primary motivation I had in voting Remain was to contribute to a probable Remain majority in NI. In the event of the Leave vote winning the referendum, this, together with a similar majority Remain result in Scotland, would lead to some measure of constitutional crisis thus enhancing the likelihood of Irish unity as you say.

    So, in that sense I'm not sure a curate's egg is the most apt description for me as that would pertain to something partly good but mostly bad.

    Don't forget that it's because of Brexit that the whole question of unity has been pushed to the forefront of public discourse in a way that it has never been before, and it's the Southern engagement with it that is more significant than any awakening of the nationalist population from their slumber in the long grass of NI.

    The cherry on top is that this has all preceded the inevitable border poll call that will arise from the result of the next NI census.

  11. Thanks From:


  12. #290
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    2,700
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    249
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    755
    Thanked in
    487 Posts
    England's difficulty is still Ireland's opportunity
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

  13. #291
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,282
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,318
    Thanked in
    852 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    Reunification is now a topic that's just going to keep being talked about.
    From the Irish Times this week also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Times View Post
    A united Ireland – is there something in the air?
    Key figures from both sides of the peace line have their say on the notion of Irish unity


    Brexit, demographic shifts and the dramatic outcome of the Northern Assembly elections are all fuelling talk of a united Ireland, a Border poll and joint authority.
    Many unionists are nervous and in some cases spooked by the election results, fearing Sinn Féin’s success in coming within one seat of the DUP and the implications of losing their overall Stormont majority.
    Billy Hutchinson, leader of the Progressive Unionist Party, which is linked to the Ulster Volunteer Force, acknowledges that anxiety. Still, he insists that unifications is not even relatively imminent.
    “With nationalism, it’s a bit like St Augustine: wrap the green flag around me, but not just yet,” he tells The Irish Times: “It won’t happen in my lifetime.” Hutchinson is just short of his 62nd birthday.
    Other opinions vary wildly. Nationalists such as SDLP leader Colum Eastwood and writer and former Sinn Féin publicity guru Danny Morrison believe change is coming, and that it can happen without frightening unionists.
    Meanwhile, unionists such as Raymond McCord, whose son was killed by the UVF, and the Democratic Unionist Party’s Gregory Campbell say the union can be defended by good sense and pragmatic diplomacy.
    On the other hand, socialist and republican Bernadette McAliskey, once a youthful, outspoken MP in the House of Commons, would like to see unity, but not under the current administrations. She recalls a famous quote from another republican, Brendan Behan: “I can think of no state of human misery that could not be made instantly worse by the arrival on the scene of a policeman.”
    Paraphrasing, McAliskey says: “I can think of no state of human misery, either North or South of the Border, at this juncture, that would not be made immeasurably worse by putting the idiots that are running the two sides together in the one state.”

    Nonetheless, unity is a live issue after the Northern election. It was already in the air due to population changes and the Brexit vote, the latter raising concerns about Border customs posts, despite assurances to the contrary.
    The UK departure from the EU also creates the possibility of a second independence referendum in Scotland, where a vote to leave Britain could cause a domino effect across the north channel.
    In the 2011 census, 48 per cent (864,000) of the North’s 1.8 million people originated from Protestant households. Those from Catholic households accounted for 45 per cent (810,000) – a gap of 54,000.
    However, just one in four said they saw themselves as exclusively Irish; 21 per cent considered themselves Northern Irish only. Moreover, polls in recent years have found pro-unity opinion to be as low as 13 per cent.
    Opinion has now shifted. A nationalist conviction that it was disrespected by the DUP and its leader, Arlene Foster, triggered an emotional and voting response, leaving unionists with less than a 1,200 voting majority.
    All these facts and figures play in the minds of those who fret or dream about a united Ireland. The Rev Mervyn Gibson, grand secretary of the Orange Order, says “the election has been a wake-up call for unionism”.
    Debate about a united Ireland “will just add to our mistrust and panic”, he says, while the unionist hold on just 40 of Stormont’s seats will be seen as a progression, as a “journey down the road” towards unification.
    Nevertheless, Gibson says “the numbers will still come out all right for the United Kingdom” in a Border poll, dismissing the belief that unionists might be financially enticed by the possible economic benefits of unification.
    “I think it is insulting. It’s like saying to Irish nationalists, can we buy you back into the Commonwealth? I am a unionist; that is my birthright. It’s not something I sell, buy, or trade,” he said.

    However, he went on to cast a warning: “An unsettled community that sees itself as being railroaded into something is a dangerous place for that community to be.”

    Billy Hutchinson believes the nationalist vote surge was not for a united Ireland, but rather to discipline the DUP and Foster. Unionists need “to be more inclusive, they need to make this a friendly place for everybody, including middle-class Catholics”.
    He warns against anyone even raising the idea of loyalist paramilitaries responding violently to the prospect of “a nation once again”: “We need to be careful. Don’t even talk about it. There is no violence there.”
    If Foster was critised for stirring up nationalists with her “don’t feed the crocodiles” comment, then Gregory Campbell, the DUP’s East Derry MP, was accused of preparing the ground with his “curry my yogurt” lampooning of the Irish language – or, as he would have it, his sardonic take on Sinn Féin’s “abuse” of the Irish language.
    In terms of the DUP supposedly showing disrespect to nationalists, Campbell argues that Sinn Féin exploited the “mopery” phenomenon – MOPE being an acronym for republicans characterising themselves as the “most oppressed people ever”.
    He calls Brexit and especially the election “a shock to the unionist body politic . There is going to be a lot of uncertainty over coming years.”
    Still, “if unionism used its collective head, it could turn that threat into an opportunity to make unionism even more viable.” Campbell says that could involve a “realignment of unionism, not necessarily into one single party”, but closer cooperation between the different shades.
    Unionists must make the union welcoming, for those who think the union is a good idea, but don’t readily identify with it”, he says. If done “ properly and appropriately”, he believes 70 per cent would vote to remain in the union in any Border poll.

    “It is not a question of unionism divesting itself of direct, robust approaches and becoming a sort of a unionist-lite. It is a case of unionism explaining that its values don’t all have to be wrapped in a Union Jack. It is not just about wearing an Orange collarette on the Twelfth of July – and I do all of that. It has to be seen to be more than that.
    The union project
    “In my view,” Campbell adds, “unionism can more readily and more successfully sell the union project to Irish nationalists or Catholics or people who would not be identified as unionists than Irish republicans will be able to sell Irish unity to people who regard themselves as unionists.”

    Raymond McCord, a victims’ campaigner and anti-Brexiteer, accuses Sinn Féin of over-playing its hand. “I don’t want a united Ireland. I think Gerry Adams is doing to unionism what Arlene Foster has done to nationalism and republicanism by his comments and his demands. I think he is helping unionism to jell.”
    Before the election, McCord says he was quite anti-DUP and believed Foster should stand aside as first minister. But now he says she should not budge an inch, although she should take a softer line and show respect to nationalism.
    Chatting post-election to family members in his native loyalist Tiger’s Bay in north Belfast, McCord says he was struck by a new mood – one that mirrors the mood of nationalism before the election.
    “Protestant people feel their noses are getting rubbed in it by nationalists and republicans,” he says. “The unionist people won’t be bought. The economic argument won’t wash.
    “We have all come through good times and bad times; we are not going to starve. And you know one thing: we are no better than the nationalist people but we are a proud people, and we are not going to hand something over that we have held onto for so long,” he declared.
    On the nationalist side, Colum Eastwood says there is no “constitutional certainty” about the future of the UK. “What is going on in Scotland, what is going on with Brexit means that there is now a potential to make a very positive case for a united Ireland. I think for the first time in a lifetime we can see the prospect of a united Ireland within our grasp.”
    Such talk should not scare loyalists back to violence because nationalism should have the wit to manage any change. “This has to be done in a way that understands that we have different traditions here, that understands that people are British who live in Ireland. And that has to be respected in the same way we would like our Irishness while we remain part of the United Kingdom to be respected.”
    Eastwood sees a continuation of devolution within a united Ireland. “There would have to be some recognition for the fact that the North has grown up differently, and that our view would be that there would have to be a Northern assembly and an executive as well.”

  14. #292
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,282
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,318
    Thanked in
    852 Posts

    Continued

    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Times View Post
    Bernadette McAliskey is far from convinced by constitutional reconfiguration. “No, things have not changed utterly, they have not changed at all. There is no threat to the union,” asserts the civil rights veteran. “We are in more danger of the Free State coming back into the Commonwealth with an apology note.”
    McAliskey says a Border poll would have no chance and that some of the old-school, non-Sinn Féin republicans might boycott the plebiscite rather than vote for unity . “I would not ask a dog to live in the existing Irish Republic,” she says. “So why would I vote to live in it?”

    Neither is McAliskey happy with notions that Nationalists can “breed” their way to unity. Instead, she predicts the DUP response to the election will not be to “reach out to Sinn Féin but to swallow the Ulster Unionist Party”.
    “It is forward to the past, it’s back to having one single unionist party. Which is what we had when this state was created, which is what we had when the state was sustained, and which is what we need now when the state will fall apart - that is the DUP thinking.”
    Like McAliskey, Breandán Mac Cionnaith, national vice-chairman of Éirígí, says he is “not getting carried away” by the elections. He too believes that unionism will regroup: “I would not call it on the basis of one election; we will see changes to unionism.”
    Éirígí, a socialist, republican group, tends to be at odds with Sinn Féin. Mac Cionnaith, who was the main nationalist spokesman during the annual Drumcree parading protests and stand-off in the 1990s, would like to see an all-Ireland Border poll, but also a poll in Britain, which, he believes, “wants shut of the place”.
    Though saying that he cannot provide any insight into dissident republican thinking, Mac Cionnaith venture that the election results might give Sinn Féin food for thought. “I think people have to reassess their position in the light of changing circumstances across all of Ireland.”
    Republican activist Danny Morrison, who coined the phrase an “Armalite in one hand, a ballot box in the other”, says he is more taken with Brexit than the election result.

    Border incident
    “It is extremely dangerous,” Morrison says of Brexit. “The PSNI have already stated that they don’t want to be involved in policing the Border. They know that the relationship that has been carefully wrought and built up over the last 10 years could be destroyed overnight by a Border incident.”
    Morrison tweeted against republican triumphalism and says any debate about unity should consider options such as a 32-county state, or a federal or confederal Ireland. “A united Ireland in old terms was a unitary government from Dublin, but I think we have to be more imaginative in terms of the stages that we go through,” he says.
    He seems content with the principle of no alteration to the status of Northern Ireland without the consent of a majority: “I don’t want to frighten unionists or alarm unionists. I think if everybody is transparent about what they are doing at each stage of the development, then we can have a rational conversation here.”
    Morrison says he suspects that if a majority voted for unity, then a majority of unionists “will go along with it” although others might push for repartition.
    “I think the prospects [for unity] have increased as long as things are done at a pace that people are comfortable with and people understand what you are doing, why you are doing it, where you are coming from, where you are going to.”

    Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...-air-1.3007271

  15. #293
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,282
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,318
    Thanked in
    852 Posts
    Different article, but getting plenty coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Times View Post

    Nationalists have learned little over the last 100 years
    By using Brexit to campaign for a united Ireland nationalism has repeated an old mistake

    John Hume: spent his political life trying to convince everybody that territorial unity is not what matters but unity between people

    The emerging campaign for a united Ireland, led by Sinn Féin and tamely followed by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, indicates that Irish nationalism has learned nothing from the events of the past 100 years.
    If history tells us anything it is that the one way to ensure a united Ireland does not come reality is for a pan-nationalist front to demand its implementation.
    John Redmond’s campaign for Home Rule foundered at the final hurdle because he underestimated the depth of Ulster unionist resistance until too late in the day. His belated attempt to accommodate it destroyed his authority over nationalist Ireland.
    Irish republicans went one better and refused to recognise that Ulster unionism posed any kind of obstacle to an Irish Republic. That blindness made partition inevitable and copper-fastened it for a century
    A fascinating seminar on the Mansion House last weekend, organised by the Collins Griffith Society, heard from historians how Redmond’s Irish Party was dealt a fatal blow at the South Longford byelection of 1917 for even considering a temporary form of partition.

    The irony is that the Sinn Féin victors in that byelection, who denounced Redmond for his moderation, effectively ensured that partition would become a reality with the hardest of hard Borders between the two parts of the island.
    In the intervening century nationalism has regrouped at regular intervals to campaign for a united Ireland and on each occasion has only succeeded in reinforcing the strength of unionist opposition to it.

    A depressing aspect of successive nationalist campaigns down the years is that they have usually had more to do with internal party competition in the Republic than any genuine attempt to address the complex issues involved.
    The issue is back on the agenda thanks to Brexit although Sinn Féin was already agitating for a united Ireland even before last summer’s referendum in the United Kingdom.

    There is no doubt that Brexit has put the future of the UK into the melting pot. The arrogance and stupidity of the Conservative Party, which did so much to make the process of Irish independence bitter and violent 100 years ago, has now put the future of the entire UK at risk.
    Scottish independence is back on the agenda thanks to Theresa May’s handling of the Brexit process. The future of Northern Ireland was bound to come up for discussion given that a majority of people in the region, like their Scottish counterparts, voted to remain in the European Union.
    However, by moving immediately to campaign for a united Ireland nationalism has repeated the old mistake of underestimating the depth of unionist feeling. The louder the demand for a united Ireland the stronger unionist resistance will become.
    On a practical level there are two massive problems. One is the €10 billion a year subsidy from the British exchequer to Northern Ireland and how that is going to be replaced without wrecking the economy of the entire island.
    The second and even more serious problem is that, even if at some point there is a majority in the North for unity, there would still be resistance and possibly violent resistance from a significant loyalist minority. The prospect of loyalist terrorism against an Irish State struggling with the massive economic shock of unity is a terrifying prospect.
    While it is possible that, in time, a significant segment of Ulster unionism might reassess its traditional loyalties, in the light of the indifference with which the British government has for its welfare, pushing for a united Ireland will only delay that day.

    Belfast Agreement
    John Hume spent his political life trying to convince everybody that territorial unity is not what matters but unity between people. The Belfast Agreement was designed around Hume’s vision of creating a society in which both unionist and nationalist traditions could live together in harmony.
    That agreement has succeeded in bringing peace to the island but sadly the harmony between the two communities in the North that powersharing was designed to foster has been slow to emerge over the past 20 years.
    The result of the recent Stormont election showed some thawing between moderate voters from the SDLP and the UUP but the DUP and Sinn Féin remain as the powerful big parties on either side of the sectarian divide.
    The chances of some accommodation between them will be hindered rather than helped by the campaign for a united Ireland even though the only feasible route to unity is for the two communities in the North to find a way of working together as a first step.
    The only united Ireland worth having is one that comes about because the people of the North want it. Down the line it is very possible that Brexit and the possible break-up of the UK could lead to a fundamental reassessment by both communities in the North about where their future interests lie.
    The Government and the other parties in the Dáil should stop playing games about which of them has the best nationalist credentials and instead focus on overcoming the real challenges of Brexit so that in time this State will be a place that both communities in the North will want to join.
    Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/na...ears-1.3011696

  16. #294
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    John McGowan discusses the economic failure of the northern statelet and the solution presented by the prospect of Irish unity: https://www.derrynow.com/news/united...economy/151164

    Quote Originally Posted by John McGowan
    ...

    People in the North of Ireland would clearly benefit financially within any structure which creates an economic union within a new Ireland.

    I stress the word "new" because assuming we just hook on like a piece of Lego and everything remains the same as it is now is wrong.

    In any reunification, the new political dynamic would mean a completely new political class and one that is no longer driven by two parties with power bases firmly in Dublin.

    The old economic powerhouse of the island, Belfast, would be back in play.

    Remember that prior to partition, Belfast and its surrounding area accounted for 80% of all the economic output on this island of Ireland.

    How times have changed.

    We can discuss that later.

    First let us consider the challenge.

    A lot of people point to the size of the block grant we get from Westminster.

    This produces figures from £10bn to £3bn as the cost to run NI.

    The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Sceptics are quick to say that any reunification of Ireland would result in this burden being passed to the ROI government.

    This is a totally narrow and erroneous view.

    In any scenario of a united Ireland, the U.K. Government couldn't simply walk away.

    There would be a period of up to 10 years where they and the EU (they did for East Germany) would plug any exchequer gaps.

    This period could realistically extend to 15-20 years.

    This would dramatically reduce any burden to the ROI taxpayer and can be subsidised by additional GDP growth in the medium to long term.

    The reality is an EU/international intervention would surely follow any decision to reunite.

    Don't be fooled by naysayers and bar room economists who say "we cost too much".

    A period of readjustment might be a little painful as we move from an economy low on innovation and high in public sector employment.

    The upside however, is higher paid jobs and better futures for our kids.

    Economic policy in the North is failing and has failed for 90 years.

    Household income is 12% lower in NI than it was in 2007.

    We have had a decade of zero GDP growth and prior to that we had growth less than half that of the ROI.

    The Institute of Financial Affairs (IFS) announced this week that UK living standards are the worst in 60 years and that people will be 20% worse off by 2021.

    In reality, our GDP in a good year is never more than half that of the ROI.

    Failure to address this will mean an island not separated by a border post Brexit, but by clear wealth disparity.

    The ROI recorded 5.2% GDP growth in 2016 and if it keeps doing this, the gap between both economies will become huge.

    We really need to wake up to the economic failure of the North and the potential job killer that Brexit can be.

    In 2016 the ROI decreased unemployment by 40,000.

    In Dublin, they are planning to build 136 new office buildings over the next 5 years totalling over 12 million square feet and these will house 100,000 workers.

    Already, 35 of these are under way and these will house 30,000 workers.

    Remember, in Derry we have just over 6,000 unemployed people.

    Add to these impressive build figures the fact that the IDA had 102 new foreign investment enquiries in 2016 and being part of that economy becomes a no brainier.

    It is also worth noting that 9 out of 10 top companies in the world's top 5 business sectors are based in ROI.

    I could blind you with loads of statistics and figures but the reality is that NI has tried 90 years of economic policy driven from Westminster and delivered here on the ground by various organisations.

    We have, each decade, lost ground on not just the rest of Ireland but also on regions in the U.K. NI currently tops a lot of tables looking at regional disparities.

    We are simply becoming poorer and the job of attracting FDI has always been difficult but post Brexit will become virtually impossible.

    It is a classic case of "death by a thousand cuts".

    As every region within the UK attempts to grapple with life post Brexit, I feel getting our voice heard in London will be even more difficult.

    Pumping huge sums of money in to NI is not going to get any party huge numbers of seats in Westminster.

    We are in a battle for resources and Investment and up against many cities in the UK better positioned than NI.

    In my opinion (and I have said this many times), the economy of NI has failed.

    It has failed, not out of effort but, due to policy and the inability to adapt to a changing world.

    A united Ireland would not only revitalise the economy of the North, it would totally transform it.

    Dependency on the public sector would wane within a decade.

    Unemployment would drop and our kids could enjoy the many employment opportunities that it would bring.

    I am talking purely economics here folks and not making a political statement.

    Belfast would be transformed and would become the economic powerhouse it used to be.

    Its population could increase by 100,000 in 15 years taking it back to where it was in 1920 when it was the biggest city in Ireland.

    This is about jobs and prosperity. We would be better off and yes, the ROI over a 10-15 year transition period could definitely afford to join with the North.

    As I said the EU and UK would have an obligation to assist.

    One last example of growth in the ROI which amazes me - I look at a website in Dublin which counts monthly the number of tall cranes on the skyline as a barometer of economic activity.

    In Feb 2016, Justin Comiskey posted there was 34. A very impressive amount. In March 2016 Odlum833 posted there was now 44.

    On 1st March 2017, there was 65 tall cranes in Dublin. This is growth. This shows an economy growing and building office space to employ the young people of the future.

    No one needs to feel threatened by this desire for economic integration.

    No one needs to exchange their passport or citizenship.

    It's purely economics and I want all the young people of NI growing up and having the chance to get one of these jobs in the offices that these 69 cranes are building.

    I also want 10 of these cranes polluting the skyline in Derry creating jobs for all the people who live here.

    Is that politics or economics?

  17. Thanks From:


  18. #295
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,282
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,318
    Thanked in
    852 Posts
    But would Dublin willingly share these tower cranes etc around ?

    You often hear griping on Dublin centered thinking and this would have to be addressed to a point where people trust it, particularly if the UK / EU are financing a transition meanwhile. The below, (although I accept is more layered & complex than the quoted part) did result in a swing to Dublin, which was of course seen as nothing but the same old story re Dublin in certain quarters Shannonside & the west generally, particularly with an eye on the key tourism spend in that part of the world upon which so many depend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shannon stopover View Post
    During the transition period, the ratio of Dublin/Shannon flights will change from 1:1 to 3:1, so that for every one flight to or from Shannon an airline may provide three flights to or from Dublin.
    Link - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/shann...2008-1.1184691

  19. #296
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    2,515
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    214
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    261
    Thanked in
    204 Posts
    Posters may be interested in "The Rule of the Land" about Garret Carr's journey along the Border - currently available as a podcast on the BBC Radio Player, and the book is also out now.

  20. Thanks From:


  21. #297
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    Interesting stuff linked above.

    I've just finished reading Kevin Meagher's book 'Why a United Ireland is inevitable'. It's well-argued on British disinterest and NI's structural economic weaknesses, less so on how scrapping the border will end the latter, and most significantly of all how you sell the idea to Unionists and others prepared to tolerate staying in the UK. He does point out that the NI party keenest on equal business tax rates across Ireland is actually the DUP, before describing Arlene Foster as an 'archpragmatist'

  22. #298
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    I've just finished reading Kevin Meagher's book 'Why a United Ireland is inevitable'. It's well-argued on British disinterest and NI's structural economic weaknesses, less so on how scrapping the border will end the latter, and most significantly of all how you sell the idea to Unionists and others prepared to tolerate staying in the UK.
    Even if he had have done, doubtless it wouldn't have been enough to satisfy the sceptics. And most 'diehard unionists' via SM claim they can't be bought at any price.
    Begrudgingly I almost acknowledge their stubborness/stupidity?
    Almost.

  23. #299
    Reserves
    Joined
    May 2011
    Posts
    298
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    28
    Thanked in
    19 Posts

  24. #300
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    Martin McGuinness was the embodiment of the peace process. Another big loss in the space of only a few days for the community in Derry after the death of Ryan McBride on Sunday.

Page 15 of 30 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11/08/2017, 12:55 PM
  2. Merge the FAI and IFA (United Ireland Discussion)
    By Not Brazil in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 25/11/2009, 10:52 AM
  3. Replies: 169
    Last Post: 12/09/2007, 6:32 PM
  4. Replies: 28
    Last Post: 13/10/2005, 2:51 PM
  5. Ireland v Switzerland - Pre-match discussion
    By thejollyrodger in forum Ireland
    Replies: 138
    Last Post: 12/10/2005, 9:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •