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Thread: Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being


    Of course, I didn't mean "fantastic" in that formal/literal/original sense, but touché.

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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

    But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being
    Be not afraid.
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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    So I got a response from the Acting President:

    Hi BonnieShels,

    Your email to helpdesk@ditsu.ie was forwarded on to me as Acting President.

    Thank you for raising the question, certainly it has become a discussion topic for a few SU's so far over the last while.

    I will absolutely bring the discussion up with the Executive Team in DITSU but it'll have to be after the Elections for this year have concluded.

    Please let me know if I can be of any more help in the meantime.

    Best,

    Acting Prez
    Useless
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

    But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being
    Coming from someone indulging in circular, repetitive waffle and who uses American 'english' with their 'spelling', irony much...

    And hardly a fantasy. Look at what certain 'unionists' have been doing or saying post-Brexit. Luckily they're not all myopic!
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post

    Of course, I didn't mean "fantastic" in that formal/literal/original sense, but touché.
    Don't indulge him Danny!

  5. #265
    Seasoned Pro backstothewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though? In what sense does it make us a British people exactly? The term "British" finds its roots in the Brittonic branch of the Celts. It was the Goidels, or Gaels, who inhabited Ireland. The term "British" was eventually (mis)appropriated by the non-Brittonic English crown as a means of "legitimising" its claim to dominion over the entire island of Great Britain and the surrounding islands, which happened to include Ireland, but I'm not sure how that sleight of tongue makes us a British people. We became British all of a sudden just because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles?... Our lingua-cultural heritage is primarily Gaelic; not English or Brittonic (although I do accept that those cultures have been influential upon Irish culture to varying degrees over the centuries).

    Maybe "the Celtic Isles" would be a more appropriate or accurate term, although the English (Anglo-Saxons) weren't Celts, of course. How about "the Anglo-Celtic Isles" then?
    There's a lot to address there, but I've spoken about the name above. Anything i would say about that would only be to repeat my self.

    Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though?
    Yeah. Kinda. Or more accurately it makes Irishness a kind of Britishness. I think we're still too defensive about this as we're anxious about our nationhood. But we shouldn't be. Ireland isn't a nation once again. It was always a nation, and always will be. We don't have to worry about being the equal of the English anymore. We are the equal of any nation, be it Britain, the USA or Gambia. We should secure in ourselves about that. And being confident of that means that we should be honest, and proud, of our part in whatever that common culture of these islands is.

    In what sense does it make us a British people exactly?
    In the sense that everybody from Dover to the Bloody Foreland is a hybrid. We've all rubbed off on each other in massive ways. This isn't a case of us becoming British because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles. The reason i say this is because we DIDN'T become the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles, yet we have had a MASSIVE influence on British culture.

    A couple of (diverse) examples.

    - British Racing Green. The classic colour of British manufacturing. Not just cars, although a Jaguar doesn't look as good in any other colour. Came about as a tribute to Ireland by the Napier Racing team when the Gordon Bennett Cup was held in Athy, Kildare in 1903, as they were hosting the event but Ireland was the only part of the UK where motor racing was legal.

    - Ed Sheeran. Don't even listen to him. Just look at him

    - Fish and Chips. It's literally as British as fish and chips. At least it has been since the mid 19th century. Before that it was as British as fish and bread, but a mass wave of immigration from Ireland to Britain occurred due to the famine. Shops selling fried potatoes started popping up in areas populated by immigrants and before you knew it a British classic was born. And today it's sold in every city, town and village in Britian (and Ireland).

    - Tayto. The Brits might make their own crisps, but it was an Irishman who came up with the idea of flavouring them with more than just salt. It sounds obvious now, and it seems equally obvious that everyone would copy the idea. But they didn't. A walk around a supermarket on holidays in Spain, France or Portugal will confirm as much. The Brits did though, a Mr Walker from Leicester in particular.

    - The Gallagher brothers: "The first music I was ever exposed to was the rebel songs the bands used to sing in the Irish club in Manchester. Do you know, I think that's where Oasis songs get their punch-the-air quality" - Noel Gallagher". If you're old enough imagine England in the mid-late 1990s without Oasis. Just Tony Blair and Blur.

    - Rashers. A new way to cut bacon from Henry Denny. Now a staple of the full English Breakfast, and quite frankly what is served as bacon outside these Anglo-Celtic Isles is crap

    - Everything our rugby players have done with the Lions. Once FIFA finally ruin the World Cup I can see a day the football associations do something similar.

    - Our men, from the Duke of Wellington to Col. Tim Collins, built a large part of the British military (and by default, the British Empire). 195 recipeints of the Victoria Cross, and still counting. We might not have been in charge, but we were a big part of that. It may have been forgotten but many an Indian villager lost their life to an Irishman.

    - Terry Wogan

    I've focused on our influence on England & Wales there. I know the English are hard work at times, but imagine how much worse they would be without us nudging them in the right direct.

    And that's the effect we've had on the English. Scotland is a massively exaggerated version of that. If there wasn't water between Ireland and Scotland I'm not sure how one would know where one ends and the other begins.

    I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness. Having a Republic doesn't give the 26 counties a monopoly on Irishness. Having a United Kingdom doesn't give GB&NI a monopoly on Britishness. Not least because this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back.
    Last edited by backstothewall; 11/03/2017 at 12:43 AM.
    Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.

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  7. #266
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    Wouldn't agree with all of that, but can see where you're coming from.

    My experience of talking to random unionists is some cases of extreme intransigence, so you might have to go rather more than you have!

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    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness...this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back
    I'm a lifelong Atheist albeit with an interest in and relaxed attitude to organised religion. I've embraced my Irishness throughout. Some of it the same as your Irishness. How British or otherwise you feel is up to you.

    Partition may hold you back (if so, how?), but what allows you to speak for everyone else?

  9. #268
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    - Fish and Chips. It's literally as British as fish and chips. At least it has been since the mid 19th century. Before that it was as British as fish and bread, but a mass wave of immigration from Ireland to Britain occurred due to the famine. Shops selling fried potatoes started popping up in areas populated by immigrants and before you knew it a British classic was born. And today it's sold in every city, town and village in Britian (and Ireland).

    To nit-pick, wasn't fried fish and chips a Jewish phenomenon originally?

    - Our men, from the Duke of Wellington to Col. Tim Collins, built a large part of the British military (and by default, the British Empire). 195 recipeints of the Victoria Cross, and still counting. We might not have been in charge, but we were a big part of that. It may have been forgotten but many an Indian villager lost their life to an Irishman.
    Certainly not our proudest contribution to global affairs.

    I also don't think we can ask Ulster Protestants like Gather Round to embrace their Irishness while we refuse to embrace our Britishness. Having a Republic doesn't give the 26 counties a monopoly on Irishness. Having a United Kingdom doesn't give GB&NI a monopoly on Britishness. Not least because this sort of bull**** blocks a genuine conversation about the merits of the Union v the merits of ending partition. That's the ground i want to get onto because i feel utterly confident of winning a genuine debate about that because partition holds everybody back.
    You're right that the 26-county state doesn't possess a monopoly over Irishness. GR does embrace his Irishness (as do many unionists) - it's a British form of Irishness, certainly, but a perfectly valid form of Irishness all the same - but even if he (or they) didn't want to do so, there's no expectation or obligation upon him (or them) to embrace Irishness from my corner. They can identify however they wish; be it as Irish, as Irish and British, solely as British, as Northern Irish or however.

    If you feel in some way British yourself for the reasons outlined above, fair enough, but, as GR points out, it doesn't give you a voice to speak for everyone else. I think the term "British" is loaded and problematic when sweepingly applied to Ireland and the Irish as a whole, but we've both outlined our positions clearly and there's no point really going over again what is a matter of opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gather round View Post
    I'm a lifelong Atheist albeit with an interest in and relaxed attitude to organised religion. I've embraced my Irishness throughout. Some of it the same as your Irishness. How British or otherwise you feel is up to you.

    Partition may hold you back (if so, how?), but what allows you to speak for everyone else?
    If you're an atheist, why would you care who governs you and who their 'official' church is?

    As for 'embracing Irishness', it seems to done in a highly qualified extent by many unionists.
    Using criteria most, er, Irish people probably wouldn't dream of. Including 'feeling British' even at all, fine people some of them are...

    And as an Irish person who's not embracing his 'Britishness' (!!!), bttw's opinion is as valid as any!

  11. #270
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Enda Kenny announced in Philadelphia today that the Irish government is to hold a referendum as to whether to extend presidential election voting rights to Irish citizens living in the north and abroad: http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859...-patricks-day/

    Quote Originally Posted by RTÉ
    Taoiseach Enda Kenny has confirmed that the Government will move forward with plans to hold a referendum to allow Irish citizens resident outside the state - including in Northern Ireland - the right to vote in Irish presidential elections.

    In a speech at the Famine Memorial in Philadelphia, he confirmed the Government had taken a decision to move forward with plans to hold a referendum to give the right to vote in presidential elections to Irish citizens abroad, including those in Northern Ireland.

    Mr Kenny said the decision, taken at a cabinet meeting last week was a "clear recognition of the importance that Ireland attached to her citizens wherever they were".

    The move was recommended by the Constitutional Convention in 2013 and last July the Diaspora Minister Joe McHugh said there was a commitment to hold a referendum.

    An options paper will be published later this month outlining arrangements on how to register citizens abroad, and how to facilitate voting outside of Ireland.

    This will then be discussed during the Global Irish Civic Forum in Dublin in May.

    The referendum is unlikely to be held this year, and assuming it passes, would come into effect for the presidential election after the one set for 2018.
    A very positive development.

  12. #271
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    I was just coming in to post this. I seem to recall a thread years ago on this. Must root it out.
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  13. #272
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Fianna Fáil are going to publish a white paper which is nice. But dual Parliaments? What in the what? that would just entrench difference.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017...nited-ireland/
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    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Also, I thought it was funny when Arlene (who I actually admire in an odd way, despite not agreeing with her on much, in contrast to the contempt in which I hold the likes of nincompoop Edwin Poots, wind-up Gregory Campbell or haughty Nelson McCausland) tweeted to wish us congratulations after our great victory over Italy: https://twitter.com/dupleader/status/745724610067443712



    The tweet was a complete surprise, but a sign that her heart isn't made of stone, after all. It also happened to be her most popular tweet ever, which just goes to show how far a little bit of respect and good will goes. An indication of its exceptional nature too. As a responding tweeter said: "your most popular tweet ever. A lesson in diversity and respect can go a long way. A bit more would be good for all."
    How's your admiration now Danny? :P
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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    How's your admiration now Danny? :P
    It went up in a cloud of ash.

  16. #275
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
    If you're an atheist, why would you care who governs you!
    God knows.

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    Except according to a lot of people, you included, he doesn't exist!

  18. #277
    International Prospect CraftyToePoke's Avatar
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    Wasn't fully sure which thread this best belongs in, but am surprised a little it hasn't gotten more attention today, some nuts and bolts detail on how the border will be managed, (hopefully anyway) and the specific peace process assurance. I'm sure the DUP will raise an eyebrow or three at why their Tory brethren couldn't have thrown them this bone two weeks back or so, but there we go.


    Quote Originally Posted by RTE News View Post
    UK rules out border posts between NI and Republic post-Brexit

    The British government has ruled out introducing Irish border posts after leaving the EU.

    Brexit secretary David Davis said the UK would adopt technology to cover the movement of goods between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    He gave evidence to his Westminster scrutiny committee about the future of the UK's only land frontier with an EU state.

    He said: "It is not going to be easy, it is going to cost us money, a lot of work on technology, to put border controls in but without having border posts - but that is what we intend to do."

    Businesses north and south are unanimously opposed to a hard border following Brexit, with long queues for paperwork checks envisaged akin to the 1980s when the Northern Ireland conflict still simmered.

    Tour operators, hoteliers, business leaders and members of the agriculture industry are among those concerned about the implications if no special deal is struck between the UK and Ireland.

    Mr Davis said: "I am confident that actually the two nations and the (European) Commission between them will be able to solve this because we really want to, because the technology is better than it was 20 years ago and because we all understand the value of it."

    He added: "We are not going to do anything which jeopardises the peace process."

    The Brexit Secretary noted excise duty differences on goods moving between north and south were already dealt with in a subtle fashion.

    He said the same system for sending goods between Belfast and Dublin could also control trade between the UK and a city like Rotterdam in Holland.

    Freedom of movement between the UK and Ireland is covered by separate arrangements.

    Under the UK's 1949 Ireland Act Irish citizens living in the UK are treated as "non-foreign".

    That may have to be reviewed post-Brexit, given that the Republic would still be in the EU.

    Mr Davis added: "What we will aim to do is pretty much identical to the 1949 Act, which gives effectively citizenship rights to the citizens of each country."



    The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic can "work perfectly" and be "seamless" like the Norway-Sweden border, two Swedish MEPs said.

    They have suggested the Irish border could be modeled on their EU frontier with Norway.

    EU member state Sweden has a 1640km border with non-member Norway. The two countries enjoy trade links worth over €18 billion annually as they have bilateral cross-border agreements.

    Asked if a similar arrangement could be replicated in Ireland, Swedish European People's Party MEP Gunnar Hokmark told RTÉ News: "The main issue is that you need to have trust between the countries, which we have between Sweden and Norway and I guess you would have the same [with Britain]. So I think it is very much how much you want it to be divided.

    "Our experience is that it is very seamless, working in a way that when I get this question I need to think about it because I don't see any obvious obstacles. "

    His Swedish colleague, Max Andersson, MEP for the Greens/European Free Alliance claimed the border with Norway "works perfectly."

    He said: "It is like an internal EU border because Norway is a member of the single market agreement. Norway is also a member of Schengen agreement so unless Britain decides to become a member of the EEA [European Economic Area], if they do that, there will be no problems but if they don't do that, there will be border controls and that it going to be quite difficult.

  19. #278
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke View Post
    Wasn't fully sure which thread this best belongs in, but am surprised a little it hasn't gotten more attention today, some nuts and bolts detail on how the border will be managed, (hopefully anyway) and the specific peace process assurance. I'm sure the DUP will raise an eyebrow or three at why their Tory brethren couldn't have thrown them this bone two weeks back or so, but there we go.
    Don't believe the blather. "Technology" is the Brexiteer's fuzzword of choice when they're confronted on the question of a "hard" or "soft" border and it has often been deployed before Davis ever used it yesterday. I've heard Ian Paisley Junior and Arlene Foster trying to dubiously rely on it during debates in recent months and weeks. Edwin Poots even threw it out there without further clarification as to whatever the hell he meant by it on last night's Nolan Live.

    But what does it actually mean? It's a vague and ambiguous term that's just thrown about to fill the void of cluelessness. There's been next to no detail offered by the proponents of this "technology" model. How exactly will "technology" be able to monitor/check individual truck trailers, car boots and haulage/transport documents whilst simultaneously ensuring that there is a "soft" or "frictionless" border, as has been promised?

    And Davis can only speak from an internal UK perspective, so he's in absolutely no position to be giving guarantees for a "soft" border when reality is saying otherwise. He has no idea what sort of barriers and checks the EU will wish to place on the southern side of the Irish border in order to protect the political and economic integrity of the EU.

    Furthermore, unmanned "technology" (if it's even possible/viable in the first place) will be like a sitting duck for potential saboteurs objecting to the inconvenience, sense of separation/division and threat to privacy that incendiary and disruptive customs, border controls and/or security installations will cause in their border communities. And there will be plenty of potential and willing saboteurs.

    See the video here of a border community mobilising to remove a divisive reinforced concrete block from an "unapproved road" in the mid-1990s: https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85/...62289361985538

    Such blocks were positioned along dozens of minor border roads and bridges by the British army during the "Troubles" when they weren't blowing them up or getting involved in armed border stand-offs with the Irish state army.

    If present-day border communities decide to take similar undermining, disobedient and subversive action in a post-Brexit scenario against any newly-established infrastructure that will hit local economies, livelihoods and ways of life hard, I could hardly blame them. Jaysis, I might even join them myself!

    "Technology" will thus require 24-hour manned - possibly even armed - protection, which will, in turn, offer further sitting-duck targets for those malcontents who might be prepared to go one step further than non-violent direct action and civil disobedience/resistance in their battle against the border.

    The Norway-Sweden analogy won't even apply to the Irish border considering the UK is leaving the single market; both Norway and Sweden are party to the single market agreement and are also signatories of Schengen, so it's a totally different set of circumstances.

    Brexiteers also frequently claim that the Common Travel Area will continue to exist without issue on the entirely suspect basis that it existed before both the UK and Ireland joined the EEC/EC/EU, but this ignores a rather crucial fact; at no time have Ireland and the UK ever been on opposite sides of the EU's border. They've always been either both on the outside or both on the inside, but Brexit will change that for the first time, whereafter the Irish state will find itself still on the inside with Brexit UK having moved to the outside.

    The whole thing will be just such an awful ball-ache of a mess and the UK government well and truly deserves all the difficulty, disobedience and indignation it'll get, for it is undermining and explicitly contravening the Good Friday Agreement - a binding international agreement lodged with the UN - and is dragging the people of the north out of Europe both against their will and to their inevitable social, political and financial detriment. It genuinely saddens and worries me what they're doing to my locality. It's downright insanity.

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    Danny preparing to cross the border:


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    Clontibret is looking well
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