Discussion on a United or re-partitioned Ireland

[Wolfman]

Bonita- all I'm telling you is what every Government in the South (backed by public opinion) has done for 90 years. If you prefer to read too much into a few simplistic polls while dismissing the more detailed ones, go ahead.

You mean Dublin? And even you must have noticed times have changed?

Wolfie- had you read/ understood to the end of my last post, you'd have seen me suggest an update to the November 2015 poll.

Do better.

Plus you're contradicting yourself;On the one hand you suggest polls are 'simplistic', on the other that we should take notice of a notional update to one from 16 months ago, pre-Brexit.
Hmm.

As you said yourself, Do better.

[Wolfman]

Ah, I'm not sure how much significance you can take from the results of polls where the samples are self-selecting as opposed to those that are conducted with random samples or using a cross-section that is as proportionate as possible to existing and relevant societal demographics.

Clearly you've never been engaged in conducting opinion polls!
Though most claim they do, the majority don't as certain demographic/minority groups are difficult to reach or don't give honest answers, beyond perhaps exit polls. Plus there's too many leading/ambiguous questions.
Hence the general unreliability of opinion polls over a good part of the last decade.

[Gather round]

I thought [British Isles] general use was waning, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Any specific examples of people who aren't sympathetic to unionism or Conservatism using it? Who are you referring to exactly?

I should have prefaced it as anecdotage, as it's a mix of personal conversations (one guy often mentions BI and the 'North of Ireland' in the same conversation ) and passing references in the more 'progressive' media over here (BBC, Guardian, Independent). It may be a reflection of what's in the less progressive media, of course.

[Wolfman]

Don't bother, more guff.

[DannyInvincible]

Clearly you've never been engaged in conducting opinion polls!
Though most claim they do, the majority don't as certain demographic/minority groups are difficult to reach or don't give honest answers, beyond perhaps exit polls. Plus there's too many leading/ambiguous questions.
Hence the general unreliability of opinion polls over a good part of the last decade.

Ha, what you say may well be true - I'm not necessarily disputing it (as all types of surveys and opinion polls can certainly prove unreliable) - but self-selecting samples are inevitably going to skew impressions/results even more so than surveys that at least attempt some sort of balance/control, surely?

[Wolfman]

In theory yes, but the problem is the latter are becoming harder and harder to achieve.

In terms of relative efficiency the Journal one is probably as 'useful' as the BBC one, in identifying broad trends or profound fluctuations to 'the norm', nothing else.
Know someone who works with political 'big data' and they bored me senseless with all this stuff.

[backstothewall]

I've never had a problem with the use of the phrase "British Isles". For me it doesn't imply ownership any more than Canada being in North America implies ownership by the USA, or than them being in the Malay Archipelago implies that Malaysia owns Indonesia or the Philippines.

If some daft journalist writing for a Murdoch rag in England has a chip on her shoulder that's her problem. For me it's a convenient geographical term to describes these islands. It isn't worth foregoing the utility of that to make a political point that is lost on the rest of the world anyway.

[DannyInvincible]

Martina Devlin is urging people to get their thinking caps on for a united Ireland.

'Bring in the deal-makers, it's time to knuckle down... the case for Irish reunification is overwhelming': http://www.independent.ie/business/b...-35504764.html

Bring on the deal-makers. Time to knuckle down to business. To set Stormont functioning again? That, too, but there are more pressing matters to address than a provincial parliament in Belfast - another strand of discussion needs to be opened.

The end of partition: that's what is crying out to be negotiated. Theresa May is due to trigger Article 50 within weeks, bouncing a reluctant Northern Ireland out of the EU. That timetable means serious horse-trading has to start now, shaping Ireland's future in a post-Brexit world.

The Border has to go. The case for Irish reunification is overwhelming - over time, the two parts of this island will be more prosperous together than apart. Politicians from Ireland, north and south, from Britain and the EU need to sit around a table and agree a financial plan and outline for how a post-Brexit united Ireland would function.

...

A united Ireland is the clearest way to minimise the fallout from Brexit, provided it can be handled sensitively and a carefully plotted, long-term approach taken. The economic case is compelling. But within the new framework there must be solid guarantees for the Unionist culture. Above all, the Republic needs to be genuinely welcoming and embrace inclusivity for Unionists.

Last week's Northern election result does not show a more polarised society. It is evidence of an outward rather than inward-looking population, angled towards Europe rather than Britain. The majority voted for parties in favour of remaining in the EU. The DUP, which lost significant ground, is out of step with an electorate which understands its economy will be shredded by Brexit.

Various political parties from Dublin and Belfast have engaged in dialogue with British representatives about soft borders, free movement of people and e-customs. But those are sticking-plaster solutions. There is no upside for Northern Ireland from Brexit. As for the Republic, it will be negatively affected if its nearest neighbour is forced out of the EU because it would hamper north-south trade and the all-island economy.

A united Ireland would be stronger in the long run. However, challenges lie ahead, especially during the transition period.

Discussion needs to begin on how to stimulate economic growth, provide services, run education programmes and foster social cohesion. Also how to finance reunification.

An economic stimulus package needs to be put in place and Britain would have a responsibility to contribute. But, however expensive, there would be an end in sight. The EU would have financial obligations, too. Perhaps Irish-American well-wishers might also put their hands in their pockets. The financial support package would need to cover at least one decade and possibly two, with a variety of targets including reorientating the entire business culture in the North.

The region was once Ireland's industrial powerhouse but has been reduced to reliance on British subvention - some £10bn (€11.5bn) a year. Investment is essential to boost the weak Northern private sector where entrepreneurs are thin on the ground. But there is a lower cost base north of the Border, so the lack of an entrepreneurial culture is fixable via supports to investors and by offering training and financial supports to start-ups in a transitioning economy.

Germany should be able to offer advice, having taken on its own reunification project.

Northern Unionists and Nationalists will need reassurance that their incomes will be protected in an all-Ireland economy within Europe - rather than exposed to risk in a Brexit-Britain which doesn't value the sons (or daughters) of Ulster.

Unionists must be persuaded, too, about the benefits of an enhanced ethnic status in the Republic.

Sustained outreach will have to take place, guaranteeing that their voices will be heard and respected, as will their traditions.

A key message to advance is that the Republic has changed, and the Catholic Church's role in Irish society has diminished greatly. Steps, finally, to separate Church and State must take place.

Unionists and Northern Nationalists alike may be nervous at the loss of benefits emanating from Britain, especially the health service. Again, these anxieties can be addressed. Britain's health service is no longer the shining example it was once. One positive message to put forward is that social welfare is higher in the Republic, and Northern benefits would have to rise in tandem after reunification. That carries further financial implications but it may be an inducement.

...

The DUP is arguing from a weak position in seeking to retain a Border which poses severe economic problems. Meanwhile, there are moderate Unionists who could be convinced about the benefits from reunification. Some of them realise the British have no interest in Northern Ireland and, after all, why be loyal to a government which feels no loyalty in return?

Much work needs to take place before plebiscites north and south can be called. Rather than foist imperfect solutions on the unwilling, let's make haste slowly and get this right. Wouldn't it be something if Nationalist and Unionist labels became historic footnotes?

[DannyInvincible]

I've never had a problem with the use of the phrase "British Isles". For me it doesn't imply ownership any more than Canada being in North America implies ownership by the USA, or than them being in the Malay Archipelago implies that Malaysia owns Indonesia or the Philippines.

If some daft journalist writing for a Murdoch rag in England has a chip on her shoulder that's her problem. For me it's a convenient geographical term to describes these islands. It isn't worth foregoing the utility of that to make a political point that is lost on the rest of the world anyway.

Do you regard Ireland as British though?

If you do, how come? If not (and I'd assume you don't), then isn't it the case that you're just going along with or conforming to the use of a misnomer in order to appease or not inconvenience the imperious, the mistaken and the misled?

It's not even necessarily that it offends or insults (although it has the potential to be used in such a manner too); it's more so that I just don't consider it remotely factual.

[DannyInvincible]

A fascinating map showing how Europe might look if every secessionist, separatist or independence movement on the continent succeeded or had succeeded:



I note it has Ireland's capital down as Athlone, a reference to the old Éire Nua policy adopted by Sinn Féin during the 1970s and early 1980s. This remains a policy of some "dissident" republican groups.

[BonnieShels]

Do you regard Ireland as British though?

If you do, how come? If not (and I'd assume you don't), then isn't it the case that you're just going along with or conforming to the use of a misnomer in order to appease or not inconvenience the imperious, the mistaken and the misled?

It's not even necessarily that it offends or insults (although it has the potential to be used in such a manner too); it's more so that I just don't consider it remotely factual.

When I was younger I had more of a problem with it and would resolutely bristle at the use of the term. But as I've gotten older and more confident in my own "Nationalism" It means less to me if uttered. I feel like I'm with Walsall on this one. I don't like the term, but we have bigger fish to fry.

Interestingly, years and years ago I purchased The Isles: A History by Norman Davies in which he discusses the gestation of the title and the book:

Many years later, having written Europe: A History, I was invited to give a lecture at University College, Dublin. After the presentation, someone in the audience asked about my current project. I started to reply that I was thinking of writing a history of 'the British—'. I then realized that in Dublin, of all places, one cannot talk fairly of 'the British Isles'. The Isles ceased to be British precisely fifty years ago when the Republic of Ireland left the Commonwealth, though few people in the British residue have yet cared to notice. Various clumsy alternatives were discussed, such as 'the British and Irish Isles', 'Europe's Offshore Islands', and the 'Anglo-Celtic Archipelago'. In the end, it was decided that the only decent name for the forthcoming book was 'A History of These Islands'. And such was one of several working titles until, after much trial and error, I eventually arrived at The Isles: A History.

Worth a read, the book. You'll pick up some nuggets. It's nice to read something that is devoid of "an angle" and purports to be a strict neutral telling of the history of our islands.

The confidence is back within Irish Nationalism and we should now continue to sell this post-Brexit UI to everyone.

---

While looking for the above quote I happened upon the original Grauniad review from Jan 2000 and it was interesting given the content of the book and the lengths that Davies went to be neutral that the reviewer opened with this partagraph:

"Sometimes - frequently, in fact - one doesn't know quite what to make of critics, or of the flatly contradictory conclusions they reach. Take Norman Davies's The Isles, a 1,200-page romp through the whole of British history, which has produced a remarkable divergence of opinion..."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2000/jan/11/1

Mon dieu.

[BonnieShels]

I was reading Slugger there and the commenter, Obelisk in response to Msiegnaro, hit the nail on the head for me.

There is a rugged honesty within Unionism but we really lack charm and we need to sell our message better - we can still do it in an honest manner.

What you call 'rugged honesty' I call paranoia. Yes, there is a tradition of fiercely criticising leaders within Unionism. Sadly it's criticism of leaders who attempted breaking the mould or reaching out to Nationalism. Throughout this thread you have been making multiple comments of repackaging Unionism, or selling Unionism, or sending a better message.

This isn't exactly a revelation. Plenty of other Unionists before you have come to the same conclusion. And they have either been ignored, marginalised or (if in a leadership position) torn down. O'Neill. Faulkner. Trimble. Even Ian Paisley was torn for appearing to be too accommodating. IAN PAISLEY.

You could STILL give it a try I guess. I mean, the Union is beginning to crumble and it would have been better tried a few decades back but you COULD.

You just won't. The reaction of the Unionist parties since last Thursday has been so predictable as to be boring. Calls for Unionist Unity abound. Denial that the result is representative. A belief that next time if they can just get their vote out they can put things back the way the were.

It's getting increasingly pathetic to observe. Unionism is forever an ideology in eternal pursuit of their last, lost line of defense.

They lost the old majority rule Stormont, they spent decades wanting Stormont majority rule back.

They had to settle for powersharing, but at least they were the majority. Then the majority went. Now the cries will be about getting the majority back.

And Sinn Fein just keep slowly pushing their project forward, bit by bit, helped along by the intransigence and narrow mindedness of a political enemy they couldn't have designed better had they tried...in circumstances of Brexit that are terrifying for all but as a silver lining, opportunistic for Sinn Fein.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2017/03/08/...e17-sinn-fein/

[backstothewall]

Do you regard Ireland as British though?

If you do, how come? If not (and I'd assume you don't), then isn't it the case that you're just going along with or conforming to the use of a misnomer in order to appease or not inconvenience the imperious, the mistaken and the misled?

It's not even necessarily that it offends or insults (although it has the potential to be used in such a manner too); it's more so that I just don't consider it remotely factual.

Land doesn't have a nationality. It's defined by the people who live there. So I guess the question is are Irish people British.

And I'd say the answer to that is a heavily qualified yes. I see Irishness as a type of Britishness just as I see it as a type of Europeanness.

We certainly share much more in common with the English, Scots & Welsh than the French.

The word British comes with a lot of baggage, but there is no other word for it. I've no interest in Ireland being part of a British political unit, but we have always been part of a cultural one.

Basically there is something there that is structurally similar to Scandanavia. We just don't have a good word for it.

[Real ale Madrid]

A fascinating map showing how Europe might look if every secessionist, separatist or independence movement on the continent succeeded or had succeeded:



I note it has Ireland's capital down as Athlone, a reference to the old Éire Nua policy adopted by Sinn Féin during the 1970s and early 1980s. This remains a policy of some "dissident" republican groups.

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.

[osarusan]

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.

There was a draw made for qualifiers some years ago. I don't remember if it was EC or WC qualifiers, but it had a huge number of 'conditions' in it because of regional political tensions.

When it came to the lower seeded teams, team X would be drawn out, the the host would explain that because team X can't be in group A, B, or C, because of the teams already in there, they must go into group D, E, or F. And when team Y was drawn out, because they couldn't go into groups A, B, or C, or be in the same group as X, it could only be E or F...and so on.

[backstothewall]

My one and only contribution here would be to simply imagine the craic at the Euros if this had played out.

And if you think Eurovision is crap now...

[DannyInvincible]

Land doesn't have a nationality. It's defined by the people who live there. So I guess the question is are Irish people British.

And I'd say the answer to that is a heavily qualified yes. I see Irishness as a type of Britishness just as I see it as a type of Europeanness.

We certainly share much more in common with the English, Scots & Welsh than the French.

The word British comes with a lot of baggage, but there is no other word for it. I've no interest in Ireland being part of a British political unit, but we have always been part of a cultural one.

Basically there is something there that is structurally similar to Scandanavia. We just don't have a good word for it.

Does simply sharing things in common with the English, Scots and Welsh make us British though? In what sense does it make us a British people exactly? The term "British" finds its roots in the Brittonic branch of the Celts. It was the Goidels, or Gaels, who inhabited Ireland. The term "British" was eventually (mis)appropriated by the non-Brittonic English crown as a means of "legitimising" its claim to dominion over the entire island of Great Britain and the surrounding islands, which happened to include Ireland, but I'm not sure how that sleight of tongue makes us a British people. We became British all of a sudden just because the English happened to emerge as the politically, economically and militarily dominant force on these isles?... Our lingua-cultural heritage is primarily Gaelic; not English or Brittonic (although I do accept that those cultures have been influential upon Irish culture to varying degrees over the centuries).

Maybe "the Celtic Isles" would be a more appropriate or accurate term, although the English (Anglo-Saxons) weren't Celts, of course. How about "the Anglo-Celtic Isles" then?

[DannyInvincible]

Irish university's are officially backing unity. It's fantastic to see such positivity and a real developing momentum around the idea now.

'UCD Students Vote to Support the Reunification of Ireland': http://www.universitytimes.ie/2017/0...on-of-ireland/

With a vote taking place in Trinity next week and students in other universities already voting in favour, a referendum mandating University College Dublin Students’ Union (UCDSU) to have a pro-unity stance on a united Ireland has passed, with 63.1 per cent of voting students voting in favour the proposal.

Voting took place on March 7th and 8th, alongside the union’s sabbatical officer elections, with the results announced today from the College’s student centre.

Speaking to The University Times today, Lucy Connor, Chair of UCD for Unity, said the campaign was “absolutely over the moon” with the result, stating the campaign’s belief that “now is the time for a united Ireland”.

There was no official no campaign for the referendum. Connor is also Chair of the UCD branch of Sinn Féin, but was not speaking to The University Times or campaigning in this capacity.

“We think that now, given the circumstances with Brexit, given the way the North has been treated, given the way the North has absolutely no way whatsoever in what way it’s future’s going, the way the two economies are going, we think that now is the time to have a serious debate on the alternatives to the status quo at the minute.”

“The reason we specifically did it in UCD was a few weeks ago a couple of the chairs of different societies in Cork, Galway, Dublin and Belfast came together and decided to lobby their students’ union for a united Ireland”, Connor explained.

“Obviously there are plenty more universities than just Queen’s, Cork, Galway and UCD, there’s Limerick, there’s DIT, Magee up in Derry, so it’s a way to get the ball rolling and have the major institutions on board. After this we hope to actually form together to create a Universities for Unity”, Connor added.

Both NUI Galway Students’ Union (NUIGSU) and University College Cork Students’ Union (UCCSU) are also mandated to support Irish unity after recent votes.

On March 2nd, students in NUI Galway voted to mandate NUIGSU to support the reunification of Ireland and to call on the state “to hold a national referendum on the question of such reunification”, after 2,337 students, over 71 per cent of valid votes, voted in favour.

Sixty-three per cent of voting students in UCC voted yes when asked: “Should UCC Students’ union campaign in favour of a United Ireland?” The referendum was held after signatures were collected by the college branch of Sinn Féin, with the results in both colleges hailed by the main Sinn Féin party.

The news also comes as Trinity students will vote next week in a preferendum that will help determine the stance students want Trinity College Dublin Students’ Union (TCDSU) to take. Campaigning started today, with the preferendum presenting three options to students: in favour of reunification, against reunification and a neutral stance.

A referendum may then be put to students to create a binding union policy.

The preferendum comes as the result of a motion passed at a meeting of TCDSU’s council in February. The arose after a discussion item proposed by Business, Economics and Social Studies (BESS) student Conall Moran, who stated that the issue would “soon be a very prominent student issue” as political developments such as Brexit and the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) scandal. Moran also drew attention to the then-imminent Northern Ireland Assembly elections.

Speaking to The University Times over email, ahead of the today’s results being announced in UCD, Moran said: “It has been great to see this response in Universities across Ireland. This is a topic that definitely deserves to be discussed and considered and it is great to see students of Ireland doing this.”

“We’ve seen positive results so far and we are hoping that this trend can continue with Trinity’s vote”, he added.

The Northern Ireland elections, which have since taken place, saw a major political upset for the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), who now hold just a seat more than Sinn Féín, and also saw the highest turnout since the vote which followed the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.

In 2014, Sinn Féin branch of Queen’s University Belfast called for the union to hold a motion on the question of Irish unification. The referendum was narrowly defeated, with just over 50 per cent of students voting against the motion. Students instead voted overwhelmingly in favour of the union taking a neutral stance on the issue.

At a meeting of TCDSU’s council on Tuesday, uncontested candidate for President of the Union of Students in Ireland (USI), Michael Kerrigan, stated in response to a question that USI was unable to take a stance on the issue due to their arrangement with the National Union of Students (NUS) in Britain. Both NUS and USI come together to form NUS-USI in Northern Ireland, which represents over 200,000 students and campaigns on their behalf.

[BonnieShels]

Not to get twee about it but there is definitely a "feeling" about the place [Dublin] when it comes to this matter. As a DIT student I'm gonna get onto our SU Prez and see what we are planning wrt this.

EDIT: Email sent. His term is coming to an end and our president is relatively ineffective generally. So we'll see.

[Gather round]

Irish university's are officially backing unity. It's fantastic

Maybe they should get the English Language students to draft the motion.

But you're right, it's a fantasy for the time being