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Thread: Jack Charlton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Well, they didn't move to the continent because they weren't good enough. The best players in England in the '80s did move to Italy. The rest stayed because nobody wanted them, or they weren't ambitious enough to better themselves.
    You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?

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  3. #82
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gastric View Post
    You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?
    Liam Brady, Graeme Souness, Ian Rush, Trevor Francis, Joe Jordan, Ray Wilkins? The best players in the world played in Italy in the 1980s and early 1990s, as shown by Italy's relative dominance of the competition during that decade. There weren't that many British and Irish players among that number during that time because there weren't that many great British and Irish players around.

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    How are you determining they are among the best players in the world at that time? Rush was a legend for Liverpool, but a disaster in Italy. Among the others mentioned, only Brady was considered a success. For many, it was a retirement scheme as they had achieved all they could in the English game. I agree Italy was dominant in Europe as money speaks, but I can't agree that they were all among the best players in England when they went to Italy.
    Last edited by gastric; 27/03/2013 at 3:10 AM.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Liam Brady, Graeme Souness, Ian Rush, Trevor Francis, Joe Jordan, Ray Wilkins? The best players in the world played in Italy in the 1980s and early 1990s, as shown by Italy's relative dominance of the competition during that decade. There weren't that many British and Irish players among that number during that time because there weren't that many great British and Irish players around.
    In the period of time those players played in Italy (1981-87), the England v Italy score was 3-1, 2-0, and 1-1 for victories in the European Cup, Uefa cup, and Cup-winners cup respectively.

    If your argument is that Italian success in europe in the early 90's demonstrates the superiority of their league at that time, then in the 1980's the English league was demonstrably superior. These players moved away from the English league during its most dominant period in Europe.
    Last edited by osarusan; 27/03/2013 at 3:15 AM.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    I'd say the reason they didn't succeed in Italy was because they played a relatively one-dimensional style of football that didn't lend itself to the more intricate continental game, which to be fair hasn't really changed much. English (and Irish) players generally haven't succeeded abroad regardless of the era. My point remains that Irish players were at the top echelons of the English game because the English game was particularly weak at that point. I'm not saying Glenn Whelan would have prospered at Liverpool in the '80s, just that our standard of player hasn't dramatically decreased since Houghton and Staunton were flitting between Liverpool and Aston Villa.

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  8. #86
    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    In the period of time those players played in Italy (1981-87), the England v Italy score was 3-1, 2-0, and 1-1 for victories in the European Cup, Uefa cup, and Cup-winners cup respectively.

    If your argument is that Italian success in europe in the early 90's demonstrates the superiority of their league at that time, then in the 1980's the English league was deomnstrably superior. These players moved away from the English league during its most dominant period in Europe.
    No, my point is that Irish players came to prominence at the top English teams after those players had left and English teams weren't allowed in European competition and the English national team was at a low ebb.

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    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    I'm disagreeing with your point that the best players in the English league moved to Italy in the 80's because it was a better league. By your own barometer for success, it clearly wasn't.
    Last edited by osarusan; 27/03/2013 at 4:01 AM.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    I disagree with that obviously but I made my point inelegantly. There weren't a whole lot of great British and Irish players around at the time, and I think the more talented ones were courted by superior leagues, particularly when the English clubs were kicked out of Europe. The Irish players in question, with the exception of your Whelans and your Lawrensons, came to prominence when the English clubs were excluded from Europe and thus significantly weaker than they were when English clubs were winning European cups a few years earlier. So I think it's lazy to compare today's Irish players, when the Premier League has the money to attract many of the world's best players, with that era when English football was at a historical weak point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    So I think it's lazy to compare today's Irish players, when the Premier League has the money to attract many of the world's best players, with that era when English football was at a historical weak point.
    I'd argue that it's equally lazy to say that because they didn't move to Italy, they musn't have been all that good.

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    Banned. Children Banned. Grandchildren Banned. 3 Months. Charlie Darwin's Avatar
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    That was lazy, to be fair. But I do think the Italian teams courted and got who they wanted.

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    Many great players didn't move to Italy in the 80's and 90's Charlie. It doesn't make them any less good. And given that the Serie A was the top league in Europe at the time, it is widely accepted that the English league was a very close second, in spite of the ban.

    Plus...with regards to not moving abroad.....

    John Byrne - Le Havre
    Kevin Moran - Sporting Goujons
    Tony Cascarino - Marseilles/Nancy/Red Star
    John Aldridge - Real Sociedad
    Mick McCarthy - facking Lyon!
    Stapleton - Ajax/Anderlecht + Le Havre


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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    If they were top European players, they'd have been playing for European clubs. But instead they were playing in England.
    Football was much more parochial back then. And most of these players wouldn't have suited the Italian 'style'. Which a bit like the EPL now, was vastly over-rated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    I suppose the question then is why were they playing in England?
    don't forget, the player quota was still in force at the time, you had to be an exceptional player, better than what was available from the club's own country, to force your way into a side
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    Players like Ronnie Whelan, John Barnes, Bryan Robson and McGrath would not have been out of place in any club side of that era. You could add pretty much any of the Liverpool team from then actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin View Post
    Well, they didn't move to the continent because they weren't good enough. The best players in England in the '80s did move to Italy. The rest stayed because nobody wanted them, or they weren't ambitious enough to better themselves.
    I remember reading that AC Milan wanted to buy Mcgrath for a big sum but Ferguson refused to sell
    After Baresi, Mcgrath was the best defender I have ever seen - re one Euro game against Genoa where he was magnificent

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennocelt View Post
    I remember reading that AC Milan wanted to buy Mcgrath for a big sum but Ferguson refused to sell
    After Baresi, Mcgrath was the best defender I have ever seen - re one Euro game against Genoa where he was magnificent
    I seem to recall Baresi and Baggio including him in their dream world elevens at that time. High praise from arguably the two greatest players of their generation.

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    It's been often said around these parts but imagine just how good he could have been if he had knees!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Many great players didn't move to Italy in the 80's and 90's Charlie. It doesn't make them any less good. And given that the Serie A was the top league in Europe at the time, it is widely accepted that the English league was a very close second, in spite of the ban.

    Plus...with regards to not moving abroad.....

    John Byrne - Le Havre
    Kevin Moran - Sporting Goujons
    Tony Cascarino - Marseilles/Nancy/Red Star
    John Aldridge - Real Sociedad
    Mick McCarthy - facking Lyon!
    Stapleton - Ajax/Anderlecht + Le Havre

    Yeah but I heard he got roasted over there!
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    Apropos nothing:

    Ireland Team 1988

    Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran, Chris Hughton, Ray Houghton, Paul McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Tony Galvin, Frank Stapleton, John Aldridge. Subs - Niall Quinn for Stapleton (63), Kevin Sheedy for Galvin (76) Subs Not Used: Gerry Peyton; John Byrne; John Anderson Coach: Jack Charlton

    England Team

    Shilton; Stevens; Sansom; Webb; Wright; Adams; Robson; Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker; Barnes. Subs: Hoddle for Webb (60); Hateley for Beardsley (82)

    Joint team:

    1 Shilton, 2 Stevens, 3 Sanson, 4 McGrath, 5 Moran, 6 Robson 7 Houghton 8 Whelan 9 Lineker 10 Beardsley, 11 Barnes

    4 Irish 7 English with moving McGrath back to centre half. Stapleton was nearing the end of his career, hence I chose Beardsley over him. In his prime I would have chosen Frank.

    We did really well to come out with that victory over a very good English side. To keep a forward line of Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker and Barnes scoreless was a great achievement. Thank you Jack. Thank you Ray. Thank you Ireland.
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