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Thread: Jack Charlton

  1. #21
    International Prospect tricky_colour's Avatar
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    Just found an old article about Charlton and that era surprised they had the internet back in 1994!!!

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...y-1437587.html

    I have not read it all myself yet but I thought it would be interesting for people to read an article
    from prior to the Finals looking forward rather than as people now see it looking back.



    Football: Why Charlton's men are the guardians of Irish identity: As Ireland's squad for the World Cup finals is named, Eamon Dunphy believes that the questioning of their pedigree at home and abroad is unreasonable and pays insufficient regard to their real ability


    THE TONE was, as ever, faintly patronising. The speaker, an English television commentator, was expressing a view shared by most of his compatriots, certainly those employed as sportswriters. Jack Charlton's Irish team were 'gallant'. The expert, engaged to sit alongside the commentator, one of those louche gents who feature regularly on the back pages of tabloid newspapers, a Football League manager, chipped in 'Yes, they've done well the Irish, some of them were actually born over there.' A wry chuckle, before expert and commentator returned to the banal business in hand, an attempt to infuse some drama into yet another nondescript FA Premiership occasion.

    We should be accustomed to an Englishman's failure to appreciate the achievement of the Irish under Charlton, who yesterday announced the squad (see right) for next month's World Cup finals in the United States. Two convictions underpin this condescending attitude. Both are understandable, both are wrong. The notion that the Irish are gallant has to do with our size. If a small nation succeeds on the world's playing fields, the tabloid mind can only advance one explanation for success: gallantry. This is a David and Goliath job, hats off to David.

    The possibility that Ireland's successes, while reflecting an inordinate amount of gallantry, might also be attributable to more celebrated qualities, such as talent and tactical resourcefulness, seems beyond the grasp of those watching from afar. To be fair to those English critics who cling affectionately to the gallant theory to explain Ireland's presence among the elite of international soccer, one should acknowledge that it was for guts more than anything else that Jack Charlton's team was distinguished when first emerging during the 1988 European Championship.

    Courage and a certain stubbornness, bloody conviction, injected by an English manager creating a team in his own image, was indeed the hallmark of the Irish team in Germany. And, two years on, when Ireland reached the quarter finals of Italia '90, the story was much the same.

    But now, four years later, the Irish team are immeasurably more formidable for the presence of a group of outstanding footballers, men of unquestioned ability worthy of a place in any international side in Europe. Gifted players such as Denis Irwin, Terry Phelan, Gary Kelly, Roy Keane, Phil Babb and Niall Quinn (sadly injured for next month's finals) have come of age in the world game these past four years. Alongside trusted veterans, Paul McGrath, Kevin Moran, Andy Townsend, John Aldridge, Ray Houghton and Ronnie Whelan, the new generation of Irish players matured while ensuring that Charlton's team survived the most competitive of World Cup qualifying groups. A task which, significantly, proved beyond Denmark, the reigning European champions.

    This new Irish team are one of the best in Europe and may prove next month to be even better than that. Gallant Irish? Of course, but talented as well on the latest available evidence, the annihilation of Holland in Tilburg last month, sophisticated and bearing a newly discovered self-confidence in their ability to outwit the opposition rather than grind them into submission.

    The fighting Irish are now the thinking Irish, a team worthy of respect. Condescension is no longer appropriate.

    That issue having been resolved, the more serious and insidious insult hurled at this remarkable team, that they are not really Irish at all, deserves nothing more than contempt. On the question of breeding, whether or not the sons and grandsons of the Irish diaspora can validly claim to be Irishmen at all, it is not merely English observers who should be confronted with the facts, but others nearer home who sneer at the admittedly incongruous sound of an English voice in an Irish shirt.

    During the fraught final qualifying match in Belfast, an unprecedented test of sporting character which Charlton's players passed with honours, sectarian fanatics masquerading as Northern Irish fans vented their hatred for the world to see. The charge levelled at the 'Fenian *******s' was that they were 'mercenaries', selling their souls for an opportunity to play international football. The blackguards of Belfast could be dismissed if it were not for the ironic fact that in their desperation they were echoing the sentiments of their mortal enemies, the Gaelic fanatics, those Irishmen south of the border who, occasionally out loud but mostly by soft, sly deprecation, question the legitimacy of men in Charlton's squad whose accents do not sound quite right to the native ear.

    On the issue of Irish identity, English ignorance, coated as it is in affection, can be excused. Pity is perhaps the best response to the Loyalist louts who disgraced themselves at Windsor Park last November. It is, however, less easy to forgive our indigenous bigot, the self-anointed true Gael in this Republic who queries the Irishness of our exiles' children.

    Those who have maliciously and persistently muttered about Irishmen with strange accents will doubtless surface again in the weeks ahead. There is one in every town and village, in every bar. Wherever a majority gather to celebrate the substantial achievements of this Irish team, a minority, vocal and often unduly influential, the Irish teacher, the really Catholic priest, the True Gael politician, will lurk, nursing a grudge about 'foreign games' and 'mercenaries'.



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  3. #22
    International Prospect tricky_colour's Avatar
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    ..continued

    Reason is the antidote. For those who argue that Houghton, Babb, Townsend and Phelan are not Irishmen, citing as evidence the colour of their skin or the dialect they speak, the answer is that emigration is a fact of life on this small island. Phil Babb's mother was from Carlow. Roy Houghton's father a Donegal man. Andy Townsend's grandmother came from Castleisland in County Kerry. Terry Phelan's mother was a Sligo woman.

    Far from resenting the presence of those men in an Irish shirt, those who love their country and understand its troubled history should rejoice in what is, in fact, an inspiring sub-text to the story of Jack Charlton and his team. For a nation familiar with the ravages of emigration, acquainted with the sorrow of sons and daughters gone never to be known again, for people all over Ireland who stare poignantly at that empty chair and that unoccupied bed, in places like Donegal, Carlow, Kerry and Sligo, spiteful slurs cast upon our Irish footballers ring hollow indeed.

    When those slyly seeking to deny Irish identity to Andy Townsend and Phil Babb are, as is invariably the case, the very people who whinge loudest about emigration, we can see them for what they truly are; reactionary, bigoted, disingenuous. And, happily, a minority, whose influence wanes with every passing year.

    Nobody who has seen this Irish team compete can reasonably doubt their commitment to their country.

    Of the Irish players born elsewhere, it can be claimed that the ostensibly trivial pursuit of sport has awakened in them a true sense of Irishness, which has nothing to do with waving flags, hating others or speaking a particular language in a certain accent. To be Irish is a matter of behaviour. To be Irish is to possess a unique sense of humour, to be tolerant, to love a song, to face honourably life's vicissitudes, to be willing to play the game of life or sport, to win or lose yet have some fun.

    It is to those real Irish virtues, which we natives sometimes forget or take for granted, that the emigrant Irish in Jack Charlton's team invariably refer when asked what playing for their country means to them.

    And, wherever they have played, it is to those real Irish virtues that these Irish men have been committed. Which explains why, whatever is the final result of their endeavours in the United States this summer, Irish people everywhere will rejoice when they reflect on the saga of Charlton and his men. While bigots cavil about accents and other incidentals of national identity, the rest of us can celebrate this glorious reunion of men with their past.

    Republic of Ireland details World Cup squad
    Player Position Club Age Caps

    Pat Bonner Goalkeeper Celtic 34 71
    Alan Kelly Goalkeeper Sheffield United 25 2
    Gary Kelly Defender Leeds United 19 2
    Denis Irwin Defender Manchester United 28 24
    Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa 34 63
    Phil Babb Defender Coventry City 23 2
    Alan Kernaghan Defender Manchester City 27 9
    Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers 38 70
    Terry Phelan Defender Manchester City 27 19
    Ray Houghton Midfielder Aston Villa 32 56
    Jason McAteer Midfielder Bolton Wanderers 22 2
    Roy Keane Midfielder Manchester United 22 19
    John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday 29 17
    Andy Townsend Midfielder Aston Villa 30 42
    Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool 32 49
    Steve Staunton Midfielder Aston Villa 25 44
    Eddie McGoldrick Midfielder Arsenal 29 11
    Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Portsmouth 27 17
    John Aldridge Forward Tranmere Rovers 35 56
    Tony Cascarino Forward Chelsea 31 47
    Tommy Coyne Forward Motherwell 31 11
    David Kelly Forward Wolves 28 15
    ----------------------------------------------------------------- Facts and fixtures -----------------------------------------------------------------

    World Cup finals record: Quarter-finalists in 1990. How they qualified: Runners-up to Spain in Europe Group Three. World Cup fixtures: Group E: 18 June: Italy (9pm BST, New York). 24 June: Mexico (5.30pm, Orlando). 28 June: Norway (5.30pm, New York). Training camp: Seminole County Training Center, Orlando, Florida. Remaining warm-up matches: Tuesday: Bolivia (Dublin). 29 May: Germany (Hanover). 5 June: Czech Republic (Dublin). ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by tricky_colour; 20/03/2013 at 11:47 PM.

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  5. #23
    International Prospect tricky_colour's Avatar
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    I expect most of us would be happy to swop the current squad for the 1994 squad?


    here is the league table for 93/94


    1 Manchester United 42 27 11 4 80 38 +42 92 1994–95 UEFA Champions League Group stage
    2 Blackburn Rovers 42 25 9 8 63 36 +27 84 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round
    3 Newcastle United 42 23 8 11 82 41 +41 77
    4 Arsenal 42 18 17 7 53 28 +25 71 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 1
    5 Leeds United 42 18 16 8 65 39 +26 70
    6 Wimbledon 42 18 11 13 56 53 +3 65
    7 Sheffield Wednesday 42 16 16 10 76 54 +22 64
    8 Liverpool 42 17 9 16 59 55 +4 60
    9 Queens Park Rangers 42 16 12 14 62 61 +1 60
    10 Aston Villa 42 15 12 15 46 50 −4 57 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round 2
    11 Coventry City 42 14 14 14 43 45 −2 56
    12 Norwich City 42 12 17 13 65 61 +4 53
    13 West Ham United 42 13 13 16 47 58 −11 52
    14 Chelsea 42 13 12 17 49 53 −4 51 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 3
    15 Tottenham Hotspur 42 11 12 19 54 59 −5 45
    16 Manchester City 42 9 18 15 38 49 −11 45
    17 Everton 42 12 8 22 42 63 −21 44
    18 Southampton 42 12 7 23 49 66 −17 43
    19 Ipswich Town 42 9 16 17 35 58 −23 43
    20 Sheffield United (R) 42 8 18 16 42 60 −18 42 Relegation to 1994–95

    I think I make it about 5 players from the top 5 clubs (none now?) and about 10 from the top 11.
    Last edited by tricky_colour; 20/03/2013 at 11:53 PM.

  6. #24
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    1 Patrick Bonner
    2 Christopher B Morris
    3 Christopher Hughton
    4 Michael Mccarthy
    5 Kevin Moran
    6 Ronald Whelan
    7 Paul McGrath
    8 Raymond Houghton
    9 John William Aldridge
    10 Francis Stapleton
    11 Anthony Galvin

    Substitutes

    12 Anthony Cascarino
    15 Kevin Sheedy
    16 Gerald Peyton
    17 John Byrne
    20 Niall Quinn

    Coach

    John Jack Charlton
    Line up against the Dutch in euro 88.

    Republic of Ireland

    Line-up
    [1] Pat BONNER (GK)
    [2] Chris MORRIS
    [3] Steve STAUNTON
    [4]Mick MC CARTHY (C)
    [5] Kevin MORAN
    [7]Paul McGRATH
    [8] Ray HOUGHTON
    [9]John ALDRIDGE (-78')
    [11]Kevin SHEEDY
    [13] Andy TOWNSEND
    [17] Niall QUINN (-53')

    Substitute(s)
    [6] Ronnie WHELAN
    [10]Tony CASCARINO (+53')
    [12] David O LEARY
    [14]Christopher HUGHTON
    [15]Bernard SLAVEN
    [16] John SHERIDAN (+78')
    [18] Frank STAPLETON
    [19]David KELLY
    [20]John BYRNE
    [21]Alan McLOUGHLIN
    [22]Gerald PEYTON

    Coach
    Jack CHARLTON (ENG)
    Line up against Itlay in Italia 90.

    1 Patrick Bonner
    2 Denis Irwin
    3 Steve Staunton
    4 David O'Leary
    5 Kevin Moran
    6 Andrew Townsend
    7 Paul McGrath
    8 Raymond Houghton
    9 Niall Quinn
    10 John William Aldridge
    11 Kevin Sheedy

    Substitutes

    12 Anthony Cascarino
    13 Christopher Hughton
    14 John Sheridan
    15 Alan McLoughlin
    16 Gerald Peyton

    Coach

    John Jack Charlton
    That was the team that drew 1-1 away to England in 1991.


    Whatever about levels of achievement, we had some fantastic players back then, strength in almost every position.

  7. #25
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    great article tricky.no doubt somethings ring true now! one thing stuck out for me was the fact that a few weeks later innocent irish supporters were going to be shot dead in a pub watching those emigrants children and "natives" playing against the mighty Italy.

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    Charlton came in at a time when there was still some good milage left in a golden generation of players, in a team which hadn't achieved qualification. It still took a very good manager to see what extra was needed and get the team to compete consistently.
    Do we have a player (on current form) who you would say, would walk in to any Irish team at any time in the last 40 years? I don't think so.
    We have a good depth to our squad now but nowhere near the same first team quality.
    From our squad today, possibly one or (at a stretch) 2 players might have got onto the first team at one of those Finals, possibly Long in the USA '94 team, because of the injuries.
    People have a point, when they say Trap has done relatively well with what's available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky_colour View Post
    I expect most of us would be happy to swop the current squad for the 1994 squad?


    here is the league table for 93/94


    1 Manchester United 42 27 11 4 80 38 +42 92 1994–95 UEFA Champions League Group stage
    2 Blackburn Rovers 42 25 9 8 63 36 +27 84 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round
    3 Newcastle United 42 23 8 11 82 41 +41 77
    4 Arsenal 42 18 17 7 53 28 +25 71 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 1
    5 Leeds United 42 18 16 8 65 39 +26 70
    6 Wimbledon 42 18 11 13 56 53 +3 65
    7 Sheffield Wednesday 42 16 16 10 76 54 +22 64
    8 Liverpool 42 17 9 16 59 55 +4 60
    9 Queens Park Rangers 42 16 12 14 62 61 +1 60
    10 Aston Villa 42 15 12 15 46 50 −4 57 1994–95 UEFA Cup First round 2
    11 Coventry City 42 14 14 14 43 45 −2 56
    12 Norwich City 42 12 17 13 65 61 +4 53
    13 West Ham United 42 13 13 16 47 58 −11 52
    14 Chelsea 42 13 12 17 49 53 −4 51 1994–95 UEFA Cup Winners' Cup First round 3
    15 Tottenham Hotspur 42 11 12 19 54 59 −5 45
    16 Manchester City 42 9 18 15 38 49 −11 45
    17 Everton 42 12 8 22 42 63 −21 44
    18 Southampton 42 12 7 23 49 66 −17 43
    19 Ipswich Town 42 9 16 17 35 58 −23 43
    20 Sheffield United (R) 42 8 18 16 42 60 −18 42 Relegation to 1994–95

    I think I make it about 5 players from the top 5 clubs (none now?) and about 10 from the top 11.
    You have to put that in context too though. The Premiership now is much stronger and people like Kevin Moran (particularly the 1994 version), Eddie McGoldrick or Ronnie Whelan probably wouldn't be in top 4 sides in this day and age IMO. Irwin and Keane probably would though.

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  11. #28
    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    And if you look at the forwards we had (remember Man City wouldn't release Niall Quinn for USA) he did an absolutely remarkable job.
    City didn't release him because Quinn had torn his cruciate, he wouldn't have been able to play anyway! He did punditry work for RTE for the Ireland game in USA '94
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea View Post
    I wouldn't pay any heed to Hand, he has been spouting that since long time now as they say in the carribbean. He is very bitter. He was unlucky but he is bitter, a bit like a present day kerr. Its funny some of the LOI (background) managers who went on to manage Ireland represent some of their LOI fans quite well, a chip on their shoulders.
    It works both ways. Perceived neglect breeds contempt and the FAI have never made the league or its adherents their priority. In fact, the league is nowhere near their priority...

    Quote Originally Posted by EastTerracer View Post
    A lot of that is urban myth though. I've heard him say "we" about England a couple of times but more often that not, he says "we" for Ireland and says England for them. Andy Townsend is actually a far worse offender in this regard when commentating on England games (but to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much anyway). Lawro is admittedly bit annoying as a pundit but I think the begrudgery about him is way overdone considering what a good (and committed) player he was for us.
    They are English and Irish, after all, so why wouldn't they use "we" when referring to both their clans, if you will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    David O'Leary referring to England as 'we' was always the worst offender. Headwrecking!
    He was born in London, but that one's a bit more puzzling considering both his parents were Irish and he grew up in Ireland from the age of three.

  13. #30
    Formerly: vega007 Colbert Report's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetsujin1979 View Post
    City didn't release him because Quinn had torn his cruciate, he wouldn't have been able to play anyway! He did punditry work for RTE for the Ireland game in USA '94
    Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.

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    Coach tetsujin1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colbert Report View Post
    Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.
    if he was fully fit, City would have had to release him for the tournament under FIFA rules.
    Even if he had recovered, he hadn't played since the previous November
    All goals, yellow and red cards tweeted in real time on twitter and facebook

  15. #32
    First Team Fixer82's Avatar
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    Fully fit with no game time. Wouldn't have been worth much to us.
    What killed us in that tournament ultimately was two silly mistakes from Packie and Terry Phelan
    Folding my way into the big money!!!

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    Mack Daddy gustavo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixer82 View Post
    David O'Leary referring to England as 'we' was always the worst offender. Headwrecking!
    I can't imagine that to be true , Is there a source for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustavo View Post
    I can't imagine that to be true , Is there a source for that?
    Oh it's very true. I remember when he was in studio, probably when managing Leeds.
    During England Games he constantly referred to England as 'we' along with Lineker etc.
    Probably around France '98 and Euro 2000 time.
    It drove me mad!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colbert Report View Post
    Wrong, actually. I always thought that as well until I heard an interview with Quinn a couple of years ago on Off The Ball. He was fully from about a month before the tournament started.
    You heard wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    You heard wrong.
    that interview is on youtube lads - cant recall who heard right or wrong - just remember it been a very good interview
    My Country is My Club.

    Republic of Ireland Forever

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um_ZvP2cUdo

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    Quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    You have to put that in context too though. The Premiership now is much stronger and people like Kevin Moran (particularly the 1994 version), Eddie McGoldrick or Ronnie Whelan probably wouldn't be in top 4 sides in this day and age IMO. Irwin and Keane probably would though.
    By Ronnie Whelan not being involved in top 4 sides these days, do you mean the 1994 Ronnie or the Whelan of the 1980s that for me was one of the top midfielders in the world?

    Anyone stating that Lawro would have played for England are severely underestimating his ability. Both he and Hansen were two of the best defenders of their generation and would have graced any international team of their day. Beglin was another quality player who was destined to have been really world class only for injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
    By Ronnie Whelan not being involved in top 4 sides these days, do you mean the 1994 Ronnie or the Whelan of the 1980s that for me was one of the top midfielders in the world?

    Anyone stating that Lawro would have played for England are severely underestimating his ability. Both he and Hansen were two of the best defenders of their generation and would have graced any international team of their day. Beglin was another quality player who was destined to have been really world class only for injury.
    1994 Whelan. The 1980s version probably would be.

    Don't think anyone believes Lawro wouldn't have gotten a cap for England. But he himself said that he believed, at 19, that he wasn't good enough to play for England and that's why he chose Ireland. I'd bet most of the players like Chris Morris, Andy Townsend and Tony Cascarino, if they were being honest, would say the same. Thing is, in their cases, they weren't good enough to play for England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    1994 Whelan. The 1980s version probably would be.

    Don't think anyone believes Lawro wouldn't have gotten a cap for England. But he himself said that he believed, at 19, that he wasn't good enough to play for England and that's why he chose Ireland. I'd bet most of the players like Chris Morris, Andy Townsend and Tony Cascarino, if they were being honest, would say the same. Thing is, in their cases, they weren't good enough to play for England.
    I believe that Ronnie would have been a great player in today's game, just as he was back in the 1980s. I think he would walk into any premiership midfield today. The same is true of Robson, Souness, Peter Reid or Brady.

    My point is that Lawro would not just have made the England team, but would have made any international team of the era.

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    I think Jack would've loved some of the striking options managers since him have had available notwithstanding the classier midfielders he had available in Keane, Townsend (who I think would've eventually won England caps if that's the benchmark), Sheridan (relatively rarely used).

    Most supporters of most teams looking backward say 'we could've done more/better' as I will here but we did pretty well. We were always competitive, we could and should have qualified for Euro' 92. Team was starting to fray round the edges in WC94 qualifiers but it still had a bloody good spine to it and was able to absorb the 'black wednesday' collapse against Spain due to the good work it put in in places like Riga, Vilnius and Tirana.

    A little bit of new blood (3 amigos for example) showed up in time for USA but we wilted there due to environmental factors beyond our control and incompatible with a hard running game. After the 94 WC was probably, to quote Dunphy, the natural time for Jack to move on. But he didn't and the England '96 campaign is the only one where Jack stands accused (in my mind anyway) of gross mismanagment. The striking options were still very thin going into the Euro qualifiers (Aldo by now our most prolific striker in his mid 30's) and qualification from an entirely winnable group was ****ed away due to serious dereliction of duty by Jack ...and the squad to be fair. But if he'd been about a bit more ...who knows.
    " I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"

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    By sadloserkid in forum Ireland
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    Last Post: 06/05/2003, 8:39 AM

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