Ireland V Sweden(A) 22 March & Austria(H) - 26 March 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifiers

[paul_oshea]

CD, the midfield were too far forward for the goal!! Thats why Mccarthy was completely out of position! They had 2 guys yards off-side, if Oshea pushed the back 4 up it wouldn't have mattered if any of their players slipped in behind them or tried to break through they had 2 lads offside who would have been interfering with play, but had O'shea pushed up a bit then the shot would not have been on. Alaba was in yards of space and 3 lads a few yards in front of him - our defence - if they had pushed forward like they did in the first half we would have blocked the shot(which they did in the first half on a few occasions also).

Anyway thats small change easy say afterwards- but we should still try and eradicate these mistakes - its the big things like the subs that make a far bigger and more important difference.

[OwlsFan]

We did well to fight back from the catastrophic error by Clarke. Even better to take the lead. No credit for manager there?

Then another error in the last minute when their best player is left unmarked outside our box. Green had funneled back and had his man covered. Whelan came over to give him support (probably not necessary) leaving the Austrian unmarked but where was McCarthy or was he Whelan's man? Then a deflection for the shot. Gut wrenching, stunned etc etc

Much talk about the subs. Long or Sammon ? - much of a muchness at that stage. Long had been losing the head a bit and had clattered in to the back of an Austrian giving himself a booking. Sammon did ok I think during the game and much improved over the Poland performance and certainly along with Long worked really hard to prevent the Austrians playing out from the back.

Hoolihan as sub apparently would have been the panacea for all our ills. Who knows. Even at that stage McCarthy was giving the ball away very cheaply. In fact the Austrians were eventually to score from an aimless kick to the corner by McCarthy. Frankly, I think we could have brought on Messi and we would still have been pinned back. It was nerves rather than any preconceived plan "to invite them on" in the words of Giles. I knew it would be a long 20 minutes when McCarthy miss hit a pass to O'Shea who then failed to control it and knocked it out. Jitters all round.

Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron all lose and all out of contention. England not far off our own position. 3 points were vital. We blew it through 2 mistakes on the field and ARGUABLY with the wrong substitution as I don't have a crystal ball. Losing Clarke just as it was backs to the wall time didn't help.

Truth is we were leading 2-1 in to the 92nd minute and their best player for left unmarked outside our box. Manager, fate, player mistake ?

p.s. Trap was so bewildered at the end that he started his interview in German !! (invites comments about being bewildered). He should talk in Italian and let Manuela translate.

pp.s Two wins against Sweden and Austria? Unlikely but not impossible. I also wouldn't rule out a point in Germany.

[Charlie Darwin]

Trap was speaking in German it seems because he was speaking with the Austrian coaching staff in German immediately before the interview. It can be hard switching between languages, especially when you don't have much.

[Stuttgart88]

We did well to fight back from the catastrophic error by Clarke. Even better to take the lead. No credit for manager there?

Hoolihan as sub apparently would have been the panacea for all our ills. Who knows. Even at that stage McCarthy was giving the ball away very cheaply. In fact the Austrians were eventually to score from an aimless kick to the corner by McCarthy. Frankly, I think we could have brought on Messi and we would still have been pinned back. It was nerves rather than any preconceived plan "to invite them on" in the words of Giles. I knew it would be a long 20 minutes when McCarthy miss hit a pass to O'Shea who then failed to control it and knocked it out. Jitters all round.

Scotland, Wales and Norn Iron all lose and all out of contention. England not far off our own position. 3 points were vital. We blew it through 2 mistakes on the field and ARGUABLY with the wrong substitution as I don't have a crystal ball. Losing Clarke just as it was backs to the wall time didn't help.

Truth is we were leading 2-1 in to the 92nd minute and their best player for left unmarked outside our box. Manager, fate, player mistake ?

p.s. Trap was so bewildered at the end that he started his interview in German !! (invites comments about being bewildered). He should talk in Italian and let Manuela translate.

pp.s Two wins against Sweden and Austria? Unlikely but not impossible. I also wouldn't rule out a point in Germany.

Nobody has a crystal ball but we're not thick, we can make a decently informed judgment.

Truth is we left ourself vulnerable to the second error by going about the game the way we did and with the players he chose. The game plan, selection, the substitutions all suited them more than they suited us. Look at Tricky's video clip on the James McCarthy thread. All our highlights came from a hoof or a corner.

Sammon was not much of a muchness with anything. If he'd been sent off it'd have had the same effect. I hate knocking our players, especially a likeable honest guy like Sammon living the dream. He showed no sign against Poland that he had anything to offer at this level and proved it again last night. Not his fault in the slightest. The constant theme of Trap's tenure is an inability to stay ahead and to always concede a man advantage in midfield. The goal may have been avoidable but they had any number of half chances before that. A proper chance was inevitable.

It's not just Trap I suppose: Israel away, Croatia away, Macedonia away, Slovakia away (under Stan) and then this one. Italy home wasn't quite the same as we had only just scored ourselves. How costly those goals all were, bar Slovakia? When will we ever learn?

[geysir]

We've been dropping deep to protect a slender lead long before Trap came, it's not a Trap invented issue. Regardless, even if Austria hadn't equalised, my main issue would stand, the way the whole game was played, a rigid lowest common denominator approach which has not altered from day one. And all in complete disregard to the evidence that we can do much better.
The most bizarre thing is that even when Trap stumbles upon a team selection that can play the rigid approach better, he scuttles it. Nor can he patch it up when it's crumbling before his eyes. For the most part, our game yesterday was a football horror show, further scarred by a tissue of eccentric managerial decisions, made before and during the game.

[mark12345]

We've been dropping deep to protect a slender lead long before Trap came, it's not a Trap invented issue. Regardless, even if Austria hadn't equalised, my main issue would stand, the way the whole game was played, a rigid lowest common denominator approach which has not altered from day one. And all in complete disregard to the evidence that we can do much better.
The most bizarre thing is that even when Trap stumbles upon a team selection that can play the rigid approach better, he scuttles it. Nor can he patch it up when it's crumbling before his eyes. For the most part, our game yesterday was a football horror show, further scarred by a tissue of eccentric managerial decisions, made before and during the game.

Agree completely with your post Geysir. Trap to me should have gone after the Euros because he promised us a different approach and has not delivered. No one seems to raise that point, but if I remember rightly he said last July that he was going to have the Ireland team play football on the ground, rather than the Route One approach (in his own version of English).

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians. His team selectionss are so rank awful that you can have no sympathy for the man anymore. I will be the first to say that we are a limited team, but we always have been and the thing about limited teams (and Scotland and Wales fall into this category as well) is that it's absolutely imperative that we put out our best players. Trap for too long has put out our worst players.

Just thought I'd end with this - a related topic which I came across on Sky website. It's a couple of comments from Mark Wotte, the director of football performance for the Scottish FA. How true it is and how completely pertinent it is to the Irish situation.

Speaking after Scotland's loss to Serbia, Wotte said:


"But we have two options: we either wallow in self-pity, or we address the reasons behind that decline. We have to change our philosophy and our approach to elite talent identification and development.

"To borrow the wisdom of Einstein: insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

"The reality is that in the time since Scotland opened France 98 against Brazil, many nations across the continent have evolved at a rate superior to our own, both physically and technically.

"We have little alternative but to accept that inconvenient truth and do something about it.

"It will take time but crucially, the process is under way. Twelve years ago, Belgium did likewise and now have a generation of top-class players excelling in the top leagues in the world.

"Spain, once derided as perennial underachievers, have taken world football to a new level of performance. Recently, we also provided a mid-term report for our seven regional performance schools, where 120 of the country's most talented players enjoy a football education as part of the curriculum.

"More time dedicated to individual skills development will only make you a better player. The first-year intake are 12-years-old. In eight years' time, they should be established players at their clubs and the best should form part of the national team."

[Crosby87]

Great posts today, some of them newspaper worthy dare i say.

Mark that was grand one thing, That quote is oft attributed to Einstein but he said nothing of the sort. He was really vague about mental illness. Not much interested in it at all really.

Just finished a great book about him, interesting trivia, he had a child with his first wife, before they were married, but they gave it up for adoption. Its not known if she survived WW2 or where she went even, but he may have more direct descendants than we know about. There are some theories out there though about possible descendants.... (and i dont mean POSH).

[Charlie Darwin]

Great posts today, some of them newspaper worthy dare i say.

Mark that was grand one thing, That quote is oft attributed to Einstein but he said nothing of the sort. He was really vague about mental illness. Not much interested in it at all really.

Correct, but for some reason "to paraphrase some guy off the internet" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

[Crosby87]

Youve been on point all day chuck, i must say.

[Crosby87]

In case anyone hasn't seen the post match presser and still wants to, without scrolling around:
http://www.independent.ie/videos/spo...-29158549.html

[OwlsFan]

Nobody has a crystal ball but we're not thick, we can make a decently informed judgment. Truth is we left ourself vulnerable to the second error by going about the game the way we did and with the players he chose. The game plan, selection, the substitutions all suited them more than they suited us. Look at Tricky's video clip on the James McCarthy thread. All our highlights came from a hoof or a corner.

Sammon was not much of a muchness with anything. If he'd been sent off it'd have had the same effect. I hate knocking our players, especially a likeable honest guy like Sammon living the dream. He showed no sign against Poland that he had anything to offer at this level and proved it again last night. Not his fault in the slightest. The constant theme of Trap's tenure is an inability to stay ahead and to always concede a man advantage in midfield. The goal may have been avoidable but they had any number of half chances before that. A proper chance was inevitable.

It's not just Trap I suppose: Israel away, Croatia away, Macedonia away, Slovakia away (under Stan) and then this one. Italy home wasn't quite the same as we had only just scored ourselves. How costly those goals all were, bar Slovakia? When will we ever learn?

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden. Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes. You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed. It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game. There was never going to be much between us and Austria and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with. I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position. Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

Agree completely with your post Geysir. Trap to me should have gone after the Euros because he promised us a different approach and has not delivered. No one seems to raise that point, but if I remember rightly he said last July that he was going to have the Ireland team play football on the ground, rather than the Route One approach (in his own version of English).

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians. His team selectionss are so rank awful that you can have no sympathy for the man anymore. I will be the first to say that we are a limited team, but we always have been and the thing about limited teams (and Scotland and Wales fall into this category as well) is that it's absolutely imperative that we put out our best players. Trap for too long has put out our worst players.

Just thought I'd end with this - a related topic which I came across on Sky website. It's a couple of comments from Mark Wotte, the director of football performance for the Scottish FA. How true it is and how completely pertinent it is to the Irish situation.

Speaking after Scotland's loss to Serbia, Wotte said:

"But we have two options: we either wallow in self-pity, or we address the reasons behind that decline. We have to change our philosophy and our approach to elite talent identification and development.

"To borrow the wisdom of Einstein: insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

"The reality is that in the time since Scotland opened France 98 against Brazil, many nations across the continent have evolved at a rate superior to our own, both physically and technically.

"We have little alternative but to accept that inconvenient truth and do something about it.

"It will take time but crucially, the process is under way. Twelve years ago, Belgium did likewise and now have a generation of top-class players excelling in the top leagues in the world.

"Spain, once derided as perennial underachievers, have taken world football to a new level of performance. Recently, we also provided a mid-term report for our seven regional performance schools, where 120 of the country's most talented players enjoy a football education as part of the curriculum.

"More time dedicated to individual skills development will only make you a better player. The first-year intake are 12-years-old. In eight years' time, they should be established players at their clubs and the best should form part of the national team

"A bad manager to a complete bum" !! A play off failure, a qualification, 15 unbeaten games away from home. Level with the other 3 teams in our group for the play off spot. The Scots whom you quote would die for such success. We are not in decline like the Scots. We are actually even getting better. You equate playing a different style of football with different players = automatic success. Be careful what you wish for. It mightn't be what you expect but I can assure you that Trap is neither a bad manager nor a bum. He has his faults and irritations but I am thankful for where he has brought us.

[BonnieShels]

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden.

It wasn't hindsight though. Stutts, myself and many others on here who know the game and don't fall into the hyperbolic trap after a defeat were no doubt shouting for change in the middle long before the suckerpunch of a 92' goal.

The goal had been coming. It just took longer than it should have.

Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes.

To say that they worked is a misnomer. They functioned on a basic level because the team we were playing were rubbish.

The substitution was pointless because it didn't fix where our major issue was.

You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed.

I can see where Stutts is coming from re Sammon and I would agree to an extent.
Though in this case I think a player like Sammon was ideal in the way he disrupted the Austrians.

The only thing is we have two superior players in Jon Walters and Doyler who could have done that job and added more to our game in the process.

I can't fault Sammon for what he did, but he isn't good enough for Ireland.

It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game.

There's "backs-to-the-wall" and there's "defending a lead".

We were the former. We should have been the latter.

There was never going to be much between us and Austria

Why not? They are where they are in the rankings for a reason. As I've said before, It's all very nice passing the ball around but we are much better than them and for the first 45' it showed in spades.

The embarrassing nature of ceding the impetus for almost the entire second half to an inferior side is what
galls me and others here.

and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with.

Who said we had to go gung-ho for a third. Keeping the ball would have been nice.
They can't score if you have the ball.

I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position.

How can you blame JOSH? That goal was a collective brainfart. I blame Given moreso.

Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

That came after nearly a half-hour of ineptitude. Castigating Trap for that failure, which bugged me no end, and ignoring the other aspects of his inept game management makes no sense.

[barney]

In any event he has gone from being a bad manager to a complete bum, and I said that on Monday night before a ball was kicked against the Austrians.

That's downright disrespectful and blatantly not true.

You want to argue against Trap, then that's fine but resorting to this sort of empty, false rhetoric is beneath contempt.

[BonnieShels]

That's downright disrespectful and blatantly not true.

You want to argue against Trap, then that's fine but resorting to this sort of empty, false rhetoric is beneath contempt.

mark12345 is known for this. I ignored OwlsFans comments on the matter simply because it wasn't worth commenting on.

[Stuttgart88]

Nobody is questioning anyone's right to make an informed judgement. But the judgement may not be correct because we don't know what would have happened and it's easy to say in hindsight well, if he had brought on Hoolahan, everything would have been fine. Good and all as he is, he is not a great defensive player and I have seen him give the ball away in dangerous positions so it is speculation that all would have been well in the garden. Trap's team and substitutions worked for 92 minutes. You say Sammon has nothing to offer but he was involved in the move for the penalty and Long's back heel on to the post. Nothing? He and Long also worked their back 4 extremely hard, so much so that their goalie often had to resort to the punt upfield or the ball being hit out of play. I didn't think he had a bad game and my good friends Giles and Dunphy agreed. It is not unique to Trap's team that a side a goal ahead with 20 minutes to go find themselves with their backs to the wall. It is the nature of the game. There was never going to be much between us and Austria and the idea that we should be pressing for a 3rd and leave ourselves open at the back I wouldn't agree with. I haven't forgotton the late goal we conceded at home to Italy when an overlapping John O'Shea was caught out of position. Where I do find fault is the failure to use the 3rd substitution after the 3 minute warning went up. That would have slowed the game down and eaten up time. I didn't understand that.

No, but you constantly fail to countenance any change simply because change may be worse than what we have. There are no counterfactuals in life. The clock can never be rewound.

Sammon got his head onto a few things, agreed. For the most part he failed to even hold the space he was standing in, getting nudged off the ball far too easily. If Trap wanted a physical front pair he could have gone with Walters and Long, who were both excellent in the second half against Bosnia. Doyle, despite his club form, was a better option - surely? Sammon's presence made us one-dimensional and that rarely cuts it these days.

I don't think Trap's team and tactics worked for 92 minutes. Even if we had won I'd have say we got away with giving auistria every advantage we could. We benefitted from a dumb tackle and a corner. At no point bar maybe that spell between 50 and 60 minutes did I feel we were comfortable or even playing well. That's not what you'd expect from a home team playing a lower ranked team with many ordinary players.

You're right - Hoolahan ain't a defensive player, but he has the moral courage to always look for the ball and uses it well. That would have prevented Austria from monopolising the ball for the last 20-30 minutes. If he did lose possession he'd still have had 4 midfield colleagues to help rectify.

Trap erred from the outset (read Giles' Herald preview and without prejudice - he nailed it as did many here) and failed to read what was happening on the pitch. Can you really deny that?

[DeLorean]

It wasn't hindsight though. Stutts, myself and many others on here who know the game and don't fall into the hyperbolic trap after a defeat were no doubt shouting for change in the middle long before the suckerpunch of a 92' goal.

Do you rate yourself in some kind of foot.ie A-team BS?

Bang on the money Stutts. As per.

Pretty much yourself and myself plus the usual brigade on here agree for the most part.

I think we were all shouting for certain changes to be made. The point OwlsFan has made very well is that we don't know if we would have been right or not. That's why we hired a manager to make these calls and why we will never be considered for the job, despite clearly "knowing the game".

[paul_oshea]

That argument is simply a cop out. It matches with the Trap comment "you are ireland", "not germany, not england".

All the pundits before and after were calling for the same. So called proper football people. Not just the fans.

Id rather finish on those points, but everyone was pretty happy with the subs he made against Sweden bar keogh. That got us the point. Nobody was happy with the substitutions against Austria, and we didn't get the 3 points. To suggest not to make changes or the changes were correct, because we can't ever know is a simple cop out , its the same as you saying we dont know, if we could have gotten better, but we know we couldn't have gotten worse with what he did.

[Stuttgart88]

None of us knows what might have happened. What did happen was that we got a lot of things wrong and yet nearly won. The things we got wrong were obvious to many and in advance - Supreme Feet's blog is evidence of that, unless he cheated. Sometimes you do the right thing and get the wrong outcome but this doesn't warrant a discussion on philosophy, time travel or quantum physics evebn though it seems to be going that way.

Owls Fan's usual perspective is don't fire Trap, you'll get Paul Jewell, you can't tell what happens in a parallel universe and RTE is rubbish. He's often right, but the debate needs to be more expansive.

[DeLorean]

That argument is simply a cop out. It matches with the Trap comment "you are ireland", "not germany, not england".

How's it a cop out? I thought at the time Sammon should have been taken off for Hooahan after an hour, I thought Long should have remained on, I thought Green should have replaced Whelan or even the fading McCarthy. I still think these changes should have been made now. The only difference is I'm willing to accept these things may not have worked even though to me, and the majority they were the obvious things to do.

As for Trap saying we are not Germany, etc.... that was in response to Tony O'Donoghue asking him if he was going to resign. It was basically his way of saying "f*** off, who the hell do you think you are?", a sentiment I particularly agreed with under the circumstances.

[BonnieShels]

Do you rate yourself in some kind of foot.ie A-team BS?

Maybe fighting relegation considering some of the posters here. But definitely ahead of the blindingly doltish.

I think we were all shouting for certain changes to be made. The point OwlsFan has made very well is that we don't know if we would have been right or not. That's why we hired a manager to make these calls and why we will never be considered for the job, despite clearly "knowing the game".

You're obviously right to an extent. But despite these misgivings about Hoolahan's lack of defensive "quality" How could he as the extra man in midfield, keeping the ball, have led to a disaster, ie. something worse than what we got; a loss against Austria.

It wouldn't have. Unless there were collective Clarkisms for the last 20' and even then you can't fault Trap if that happened.

Obviously being considered for the job is not even on the agenda, but when you have people here clearly aware that what the manager was doing was inept then you have to ask yourself, are we all wrong and Trap is alright or vice versa? And given the way the game ended I would wager that we are the ones who are right!