Opinion on Norn Iron and our fans

[stickyjoe]

its all very well for 9,000 northern ireland fans to outsing wales fans in cardiff, but as far as i know the match against poland was the first sell out in windsor in 10 years

Interesting points about windsor park, i didn`t think that any nationalists were welcome in windsor for games. good to hear different, maybe a sign of improving times.

Perhaps our real test will come when we actually have a Rangers player play for us......

[Duncan Gardner]

Davros: as usual, all you ultimately offer is 'whatever we are the unionists are more so'. So what- by any objective standard, SF and SDLP are not socialist parties. On most issues I'm personally well to the left of say, Mark Durkan. Each can argue his case, to pretend there's a rigid left/right divide between unionists and nationalists is silly, and plain wrong.

Joe: only about 5,000 in Cardiff, but broadly you're right about our support. Spain in June 2003, for example, wasn't sold out.

Rangers are so poor right now the only way one of theirs will play for ye is if 'Dad' O'Pearse discovers a granny in Wetland Row

[Duncan Gardner]

where are all these 'left-wing unionists'

Prominent left-wing Ulster unionists Dav may have heard of: Kate Hoey (ex Brit sports minister); John Cole (deputy editor of the Guardian for many years before he joined the BBC); Bob McCartney (ex independent unionist MP and long term and latterly successful lobbyist for the British Labour Party to stand in NI). My politics and economics teacher at school, David Bleakley, was an ex-member of the Northern Ireland Labour Party, which had seats at Stormont (partic. in North and West Belfast) before the troubles. Not all their voters were as right wing as you seem to think. There's no inherent reason why all unionists should support the Tories, the monarchy, the C of E, the Orange Order or the Rangers.

the only one who ever came close was David Ervine ,FFS!
Even he told the DL in Ireland,that by definition if you're unionist you Can't be 'socialist'.....Never met anyone else from Ireland,the osc or Britain putting fwd.such a maverick view as yours

Sorry, this just shows your ignorance of what happens in NI beyond the caricature. Ervine's past includes previous for terrorist offences; he continues to front the UVF's political wing; and his party's policy statements (read their website) aren't socialist in any recognisable sense. Your admiration for him- even qualified- is a bit worrying.

There's a simple reason why you've never met any other opinions within unionism- you're obviously only comfortable with Paisley's mania, Orange fancy dress and yer pals over the river in G51. Search out some of the others next time you're over- might be a pleasant surprise!

[lopez]

Lopez: why don't ye include England in the list of countries needing to improve self-respect by striking for independence?

Quite right: Them aswell aren't a proper country. But then English and British nationalism are so interchangable that independence would merely entail severe shrinkage of the nation-state.

Or, indeed, Bulgaria. I'm sure you celebrated long into the night when Jack's boys won that mini-tourney against them and Iceland. But, at the time, veteran commie dictator Todor Zhivkov was still in charge- the man who tried to sign up his country into not just the Warsaw Pact, but yer Soviet Union itself. So, as the Bulgars weren't a proper country at the time, the result don't stand...

Can't see the logic here: It's like comparing the bribed Irish parliament in 1800 signing up the country to the United Kingdom. Seeing that Bulgaria's democratically elected head of state is the man that would be the country's King if not for the communist era, it hardly suggests the people were ever behind this move. BTW, how many people voted for parties with independence for the six counties or Ulster as a key manifesto pledge at the last elections held in the O6C? I reckon about 1.5%.

[Duncan Gardner]

it hardly suggests the [Bulgarian] people were ever behind this move...BTW, how many people voted for parties with independence for the six counties or Ulster as a key manifesto pledge at the last elections held in the O6C? I reckon about 1.5%.

My point (not well explained) was that Bulgaria wasn't a sovereign country- like the rest of the Warsaw Pact- during the Cold War. Zhivkov was at least honest enough to say this, Brezhnev vetoed him. Other Soviet countries arguably didn't even have popular support for their existing border and nominal sovereignty. Yugoslavia anyone? Liechtenstein and San Marino have more independence than the Bulgars did then.

DG's a unionist so he can't be a socialist, my mate Davy Ervine told me. And nor can John Cole though he's been a handwringing Guardian writer for 50 years

Whatever

[lopez]

My point (not well explained) was that Bulgaria wasn't a sovereign country- like the rest of the Warsaw Pact- during the Cold War. Zhivkov was at least honest enough to say this, Brezhnev vetoed him. Other Soviet countries arguably didn't even have popular support for their existing border and nominal sovereignty. Yugoslavia anyone? Liechtenstein and San Marino have more independence than the Bulgars did then.

Nice try, but you can't compare the countries of the Warsaw pact with NI. While all were de facto colonies of the USSR, held together by force, similar to British control of Ireland (although I would argue that the force element was only a later feature of the '800 years occupation), these countries still had, albeit nominal, sovereignty. Even the former soviet republics had the right to secede to which all of them took full advantage as soon as the gun was lowered from their collective temples. With the exception of certain Russian planter colonies on the eastern bank of the Dniestre in Moldova or the Crimean peninisular, the only coutry who tried to rejoin Russia was Belarus and even the democratic mandate behind this move was questionable.

As for Yugoslavia, never a soviet satelite. And its borders? At least during communism, it was a federation like the Soviet Union: something that some people mistakenly take the United Kingdom for. Again 'full' democracy entailed that this couldn't last: The destruction of Bosnia and Croatia and any partition is purely down to minorities not accepting the democratic will of the majority within each federal component to secede.

[Duncan Gardner]

We could argue all night about the end of Yugoslavia (or more relevantly, why England and Liechtenstein should or shouldn't get the chance to play GSTQ before so-called 'international' matches).

But of course we won't, because you're not interested in the plucky Rhinesiders (or even that much in the 'Scum', as you call them). You just don't like NI, for reasons I well understand. But, pending reintegration of the national territory, why not just chill? I'll join ye for some tapas next time the Spaniards are over, since you enjoyed the last visit to Parc SCG so much

PS talking of Spain, have a look at this in the Guardian. First, the bad bit: I hadn't realised one of your old mate Franco's sidekicks was still running the local govt. in Galicia 30 years on: but apparently your compadres now have more progrssive social attitudes than the Scandinavians...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...317953,00.html

[lopez]

We could argue all night about the end of Yugoslavia (or more relevantly, why England and Liechtenstein should or shouldn't get the chance to play GSTQ before so-called 'international' matches).

But of course we won't, because you're not interested in the plucky Rhinesiders (or even that much in the 'Scum', as you call them). You just don't like NI, for reasons I well understand. But, pending reintegration of the national territory, why not just chill? I'll join ye for some tapas next time the Spaniards are over, since you enjoyed the last visit to Parc SCG so much

PS talking of Spain, have a look at this in the Guardian. First, the bad bit: I hadn't realised one of your old mate Franco's sidekicks was still running the local govt. in Galicia 30 years on: but apparently your compadres now have more progrssive social attitudes than the Scandinavians...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...317953,00.html

I'm surprised you didn't know Manny was still with us. Sadly, this 'aperturista' never got his dream of running Spain simply because too many people remember his time in dealing with a strike in Vitoria shortly after the Fat Frank died. His decampment in Santiago is all the encouragement I ever needed to be a 'unionist' in Galician politics if not in Irish politics, if this is the man who would head an independent Galicia.

As for NI, not liking them: That's a 'tad' strong there. Any tapas bars in Belfast that you could recommend? One that Uncle Gerry's pals from Euskadi would be interested in trashing perhaps.

[MikeNI]

And also about having the best fans in the world up North?.Seriously dream on.Linfield Bigots...

Sadly that's just the sort of ill-informed nonsensical comment NI fans still have to put up with from time to time...

But the whole Lennon craic (which, yes, I know, was a small minority of fans), that done it for me.
Maybe I was just naive, but I didn't actually think NI fans cared what religion their players were, after all, they're all stil representing the north.
NI can rot for all I care, fans like that don't deserve to do well.

Hang on...you acknowledge it was a small minority - about 100 out of a crowd of 7000 as it happens. Many, many more supported Lennon. And for the record in the next game there was no booing whatsoever. Why then do you hold that incident against all NI fans? (And since you brough up religio, NI teams have always been cross-community since their very first match.)

And then there's the sectarian songs. Aye, efforts are being made to stop them, but they're still about.

Actually, there hasn't been any sectarian singing at NI matches for a few years now.

[MikeNI]

[QUOTE=lopez]I'm with Eanna: International football is for nations, coutries, etc. NI is not a nation (nor are the Faroes come to that). It is either an 'integral part of the UK' or an occupied part of Ireland, whatever your politics: When NI gets 'dominion status' or independence, then that's when I'd call it a nation. As for the Scots and Welsh: Likewise: get your a*ses out of the Union, get yourselves your own country (like we did) and some self respect along the way.

This aside,yer bigots still believe in a fantasy 'state',ignored by the U.N. & all but the T*n mutants in Whitehall......wonder what anyone says,when the Jewish Settlers XI set up a 'team' ? Same old same old!

Of course the island of Ireland isn't recognised as a state or political entity by the UN, or the EU or the Irish Government or any other official body (whereas NI is at least recognised to zsome extent albeir as part of the EU) - so the logical conclusion is that you're saying three shouldn't be Ireland (ie 32 county) teams in rugby, cricket, hockey, etc, only UK and RoI teams.

The thing is that the UK teams poineered international football and gave it to the world, that is why they have their own teams. Other sports have slightly similar siutuations in terms of teams not coinciding with nation states - from the West Indies in cricket, to the situation in Rugby League where 'these islands' play together under the title 'Great Britain' yet sometimes for Wortld Cup purposes England Scotland, Wales and Ireland have seperate teams. And of course there are the many all-Ireland teams in plenty of sports which represent a somewhat similar anomaly. Even in football the four UK teams aren't alone - the Faroe Islands have been mentioned, there's also Hong Kong, and Palestine to give but two examples.

Get a decent team and you'll get all the Malone Road Rugger boys taking your tickets and you'll be in the same predicament as some of us now. As for 'greatest supporters in the world'. Well it was FIFA who gave us an award one year (1995 perhaps). Don't think we take this title seriously.

Funny enough, at the last NI match I saw a fella, complete with his shiny new NI shirt, from Helen's Bay who I went to school with. He never showed any interest in NI then (beyond the odd "Sure why would I support them, they're crap" kind of comment), or indeed much in football at all beyond very passively 'supporting' Man Utd (indeed he jumped on the Ulster rugby bangwagon for the European Cup final). I thought to myself, I'm all for attracting new fans, but the block booking have sold out and it's quite possible he's edged out a real fan.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Hope Norn Iron whip England. And why not? lads in green shirts playing football -we're not going to sort the political thing here or anywhere else anytime soon.

As for greatest fans in the world ... I think there's plenty of passion in both camps and I think both are generally impeccably behaved which is very Important because you've teams like the Dutch who's fans are amongst the most colourful, enthusiastic bunch you'll come across but they've a small lunatic element -not dissimilar to the considerably bigger minority that follow the England team who are just a couple of unfavourable reults (or even decisions) away from getting messy.

The Danes always have terrific support too.

But back to our own -we've lost something at Lansdowne and we need to get it back and i worrry the only way it'll happen is through a bad run like NI had which'll lead to the suits pis sing off and letting the fans back in.

other than that we can strike the first blow next wednesday by sending that Faroe left back away thinking he's Pele reborn

[Stanley Chan]

Never had a massive interest in NI meself. Wanted them to do well, watched games on TV, but always supported the Republic.

But the whole Lennon craic (which, yes, I know, was a small minority of fans), that done it for me.
Maybe I was just naive, but I didn't actually think NI fans cared what religion their players were, after all, they're all stil representing the north.
NI can rot for all I care, fans like that don't deserve to do well.

Another really off-putting are the Union flags at Winsdor. Why? The NI flag is pretty offensive as well, though I can accept it being present at international games.
And then there's the sectarian songs. Aye, efforts are being made to stop them, but they're still about.

I'm considering going to the NI-England game in Windsor, but if I go, I'll be going along with English people. Wouldn't take a chance going into the northern section. (though I'll be hoping for an NI win)

Well first off you wont get a ticket for the England game, and thank **** for that!

One sad **** uses a public pay phone and makes a death threat - the other 10'000 odd at Windsor that night all tarred with the same brush!

Wheres the union flags at Windsor, yes there maybe 1 or 2 dotted around, but they are in minority.

I cant remember the last time I heard a sectarian song at Windsor for a N.I. game. They are extinct. The only act of sectarianism is the No Surrender sung by a minority in the national anthem!

As a fan who is just back from Baku and watched N.Ireland for many years I find it offensive that you tar me with the sectarian brush. But sure its just an excuse for a Republican bigotted rant!

[Donal81]

To be honest, I'd love to see an All Ireland team - the way it used to be before partition - and one Ireland. The only way I'd like to see either, however, is if everyone on the island wanted it like that. As it stands, both lose out on both fronts. The ****s who go to Landsdowne and boo Rangers players should be turfed out, that's got no place amongst Irish support. The abuse in Windsor in 1993 was horrific, not just the UVF chants but also the abuse of Terry Phelan for being black. But we can't stand above that and criticise it - or criticise the Neil Lennon story - while we allow Rangers players to be booed here. Fair play to the fans when they went to Wales and I hope NI can get their act together, they've a great footballing tradition. Again, it's a shame that an all-Ireland team is so inconceivable.

[Éanna]

spot on donal. very well said

[barglee]

idiots "supporting" english football!

KOH

dont think thats fair, i mean the whole international team plays in england......
what i dont understand is those who follow Celtic thinking they are Irish

anyway the standard of football in Ireland bar a few well run clubs is brutal,
i went to watch my local club Limerick once but never again.......

[lopez]

dont think thats fair, i mean the whole international team plays in england......

If that's the case, why don't people just follow the sides with Irish lads in it? Why is it that people also follow teams with no Irish players? It's nice to see an Irish player like Roy Keane captain his club to Champions League glory. But he didn't. He got banned. So why the f*ck should Irish people care? Also, you can always make out the ages of those that follow crap 2nd Division teams (sorry but I'm not upto what the top flight of the Football League calls itself these days although I know from my son it's no longer Division 1) by the brief period of their glory (eg: Nottm Forest, Ipswich, Leeds).

what i dont understand is those who follow Celtic thinking they are Irish

This discussion has been discussed ad nauseum. May I direct you to the only thread allowed on this subject.
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=6844
My views are there: It's about this thing called emigration. Your parents might well have heard of it even if they didn't bother mentioning it to you at school.

anyway the standard of football in Ireland bar a few well run clubs is brutal,
i went to watch my local club Limerick once but never again.......

Like you never see any cr*p in the premiership?...or serie A or la liga come to think of it (Real v Deportivo two weeks ago: probably the worst game I've watched in years, containing all those wonderful 'galacticos' you never see in Limerick). It's not all about quality. You're on a 'Norn Iron' thread. Why not ask why their fans continue to watch the North instead of the more successfull Ing-er-land?

[lopez]

Of course the island of Ireland isn't recognised as a state or political entity by the UN, or the EU or the Irish Government or any other official body....

Pardon my ignorance for not replying but with Paris and a virus infection I had midweek I completely forgot to reply. Firstly, welcome. Secondly, I agree with many of your points but there are people that are trying to claim NI as a distinct country - which it clearly isn't as you half concede (recognised as a part of the EU? I don't think so. Well no more than Murcia or the city of Bremen.) and parties for independence in NI elections show. NI has no special status. It isn't independent. It is not jointly governed. It's a region of the United Kingdom where nearly half the population wish for some form of change in the relation to the country. I do hate lecturing people from Northern Ireland on the status of their place but if they insist on equating it with Canada then what am I supposed to do?

I'm quite willing to accept that as the formulators of modern football this is the real reason why there are four British teams. However, in preventing a conflict of interests, why are they allowed to either not all play each other in one group or not be totally separated? In Spain, the reserve teams of clubs are not allowed to play in the same league as themselves.

The incident of the qualification of the 1986 World Cup is well known. No one can argue that the game that put NI on the verge of qualifying - your win in Bucharest in October 1985 - was anything but impressive, but the draw at Wembley the following month wasn't. I remember at the time all of us over for the Denmark game were saying that there will be no other result than a draw. Not being much of a betting man I would have loved to have seen the odds for that result. NI fans can foam at the mouth at this 'slur' all they like (the slur is intended at In-ger-land who like to see their British brothers at big competitions, than the other way round) but I think that this could quite easily happen again whenever the British teams are in the same group (Scotland I doubt would let England draw with them but then Scotland are in no position to let anyone draw with them). FWIW: I used to think the same would happen with us, but the USSR-Tans game of Euro 88 put paid to that theory.

Funny enough, at the last NI match I saw a fella, complete with his shiny new NI shirt, from Helen's Bay who I went to school with. He never showed any interest in NI then (beyond the odd "Sure why would I support them, they're crap" kind of comment), or indeed much in football at all beyond very passively 'supporting' Man Utd (indeed he jumped on the Ulster rugby bangwagon for the European Cup final). I thought to myself, I'm all for attracting new fans, but the block booking have sold out and it's quite possible he's edged out a real fan.

Seeing that I found it no problem getting a ticket for your game against Spain last year, I'd say that if the NIFA got their act together, the only person that this bloke should be keeping out is another bandwagon jumper. Sadly that's life: Most people are often too preoccupied with other things to follow losing sides, although the chance to catch the bloke who wears his wife's bras may have something to do with this bloke's interest.

...sure its just an excuse for a Republican bigotted rant!

Stanley, thank you for your wonderfully articulate input there, complete with the mandatory use of the 'B' word, to which my spellchecker informs me you can't even spell. As I said to your compadre, Marcellus Wallis, perhaps you should look around your own community first of all before going elsewhere to accuse people of bigotry. It's great this 'Football For All' campaign but don't you think words like horse and stable come to mind? For instance, the programme for the Ireland game in 1994 had a campaign to stop swearing at matches despite swearing being the least of the problems at Windsor Park that night or the previous year. 'One sad ****'?: I think our friends across the pond call it 'being in denial'!

[Duncan Gardner]

there are people that are trying to claim NI as a distinct country - which it clearly isn't

Depends on the context- I imagine you wouldn't say that Wales or Scotland were indistinct to the home fans in Cardiff or Glesga

However, in preventing a conflict of interests, why are they allowed to either not all play each other in one group or not be totally separated?

Because there isn't perceived to be a conflict of interest (at least over and above those perceived elsewhere in Europe). Remember Germany-Austria in Spain '82? Or even the Sweden-Denmark goalfest last summer?

Anyway, you're being disingenuous in calling for them to be seeded apart, like in the champions' league, or the Primera. There's no parallel. Either Scotland can play England at any stage of the World Cup, or they can't play them at all. A compromise as you suggest ain't really a compromise at all.

NI fans can foam at the mouth at this 'slur' all they like (the slur is intended at In-ger-land who like to see their British brothers at big competitions, than the other way round) but I think that this could quite easily happen again whenever the British teams are in the same group

Failing to bite here, I'm afraid. No offence taken. We went for a draw and got it. They wanted a win and didn't. They were barracked by their support for the whole game. Sympathy for their Brit brothers is overridden by wanting England to win.

Our game in Polska will be at Legia Warsaw on 30 March. Sight-seeing tips welcome, partic. if there's a Depeche Mode theme bar locally...

[lopez]

Depends on the context- I imagine you wouldn't say that Wales or Scotland were indistinct to the home fans in Cardiff or Glesga

Bonjour M. Jardinière. Hope you didn't get too polluted - by Oil fumes - in Baku. There is a huge difference between Scotland and Wales and NI. The first two have a large independence movement - albeit ones that I don't think command a majority of the electorate at the mo. The third has a constituency that wants to remain within the UK and a constituency that wants to be governed (at least jointly) by an independent Ireland (ie: Dublin). 1% want independence for NI. Again you are trying to tell me that NI is a dominion and I'm feeling like the boy with the emperor's new clothes. It isn't, never was, and never will be.

Because there isn't perceived to be a conflict of interest (at least over and above those perceived elsewhere in Europe). Remember Germany-Austria in Spain '82? Or even the Sweden-Denmark goalfest last summer?

There's one thing playing for a result that suits both sides. Only one side was to benefit from the game I'm referring too.

Anyway, you're being disingenuous in calling for them to be seeded apart, like in the champions' league, or the Primera. There's no parallel. Either Scotland can play England at any stage of the World Cup, or they can't play them at all. A compromise as you suggest ain't really a compromise at all.

That's why I believe one country - one team. You'll still be represented, won't you?

Failing to bite here, I'm afraid. No offence taken. We went for a draw and got it. They wanted a win and didn't. They were barracked by their support for the whole game. Sympathy for their Brit brothers is overridden by wanting England to win.

No problem: I'm sure others will bite in your place. Yeah, I'd believe that outside the narrow minded Neanderthals, the rest of England would want Romania in the World Cup instead of NI.

Our game in Polska will be at Legia Warsaw on 30 March. Sight-seeing tips welcome, partic. if there's a Depeche Mode theme bar locally...

Kebab bar near the hotel we were in is a 24hr eat and drink hostelry which is sometimes frequented by KKK followers (contact Davros for details). The big Soviet style building in the middle of town - Ministry for Truth? Or was it culture? - should be up your street, you being a Marxista .

[Duncan Gardner]

Bonjour M. Jardinière. Hope you didn't get too polluted - by Oil fumes - in Baku

Baku's the sort of tourist spot I'd visit once bored with Fiji and the Galpagos Islands

There is a huge difference between Scotland and Wales and NI

There's also a broad similarity. Two have separatist movements which attract minority support (and haven't done otherwise in living memory). The other has...the same as the first two

Again you are trying to tell me that NI is a dominion and I'm feeling like the boy with the emperor's new clothes

No, nothing I've ever said here suggests that. So, make up your mind- d'ye want to persist with a half-hearted straw man argument, or tell us some more Danish fairy tales?

That's why I believe one country - one team. You'll still be represented, won't you?

I just read a book about the history of Pakistan. That was the slogan of its 70s dictator, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. They hanged him, alas

Yeah, I'd believe that outside the narrow minded Neanderthals, the rest of England would want Romania in the World Cup instead of NI

You're wilfully ignoring England fans wanting England to win England games.

frequented by KKK followers (contact Davros for details)

The hood has been claiming some strange compadres recently- Paisley, Ervine and now Jim Reeves's mates?

The big Soviet style building in the middle of town - Ministry for Truth? Or was it culture? - should be up your street, you being a Marxista .

It's the Palace of Culture and Science. Best view in town as ye can't see etc. as the local joke goes.