QuoteIf we had drawn with France wouldn't the group have been locked?
He may have defended the leads against Israel which ultimately killed us. But then again we were guilty against Italy in Croker of being stupid.
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If we had drawn with France wouldn't the group have been locked?
Yeah say we had drawn 1-1 everyone (us, France, Switzerland, Israel, would have been on 18 points (W4 D6 L0)) so it would have come down to:Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
1.greater number of points obtained in matches between the 4 team (All the same)
2.goal difference in matches between the tied teams (All the same since all draws, so 0)
3.greater number of goals scored in matches between the tied teams - this would have been the key:
France would have 3 goals (one in each of the three away matches none at home),
We would have 5 goals (1 home to France, 2 home to Israel, 1 away to Israel, 1 away to Swiss)
Swiss would have 5 goals (1 in each of the three home, 2 away in Israel)
Israel would have 7 goals (1 home France, 1 home Ireland, 2 home Swiss, 2 away Ireland, 1 away Swiss)
So (assumming we drew 1-1 home to France) Israel would have been top, France out and then ourselves and the Swiss level. Obviously if we had drawn 2-2 at home to France we would have pipped the Swiss. Once we were level with the Swiss it would have gone down to:
4.goal difference in all group matches
The Swiss were +11 and we were +7 overall (+8 if we had drawn 1-1 instead of losing 1-0 home to France), so the Swiss would have pipped us. So a 1-1 with France wouldnt have helped us, we would have needed a 2-2 to go ahead of the Swiss. Of course with a 1-1 vs France, in our final game we could have got a 3-3 with Swiss then both ourselves and the Swiss would have gone ahead of Israel into positions one and two.
I think Trapattoni would have done better in Kerr's group, he's rarely conceded a lead and beat every team ranked below us in the European Qualifiers, so I'm pretty sure he'd have beaten Israel, at least once. Also, I don't think he'd have made that Keane for Kavanagh subsitution that cost us the win at home. A single win over Israel would have put us into second with 19 points, and the play offs against Turkey. Two wins would have won the group ahead of France.
As for Kerr in the European qualifers, well he never beat a team ranked higher than 84th (Georgia at home) so I guess the home wins over Macedonia and Armenia (ranked 83rd and 44th, respectively, at the time of the games) would have been draws, and the home loss against Russia would have possibly been a draw instead of a loss, so that's -4 points on Trapattoni's results, leaving us on 17 points. Assuming all other results are untouched, we would have finishing in third, behind Armenia in second on 18 points, one more than they actually finished on thanks to the draw in Dublin instead of a loss.
A game where Switzerland had to score would have been interesting.
I think Trap would have done very similar to kerr, but I believe we would have won 1 of those games that we drew. I also believe Kerr would have done similar in the Euro2012 group that Trap did.
He wouldn't have picked andy reid though, the closest to scoring against France at home that night was reid with the free, so he would definitely have not drawn with France
Maybe Traps biggest win of all was the away to Armenia. It always had the rest playing catch up(perspective of points gained in Armenia moreso).
I think, in conclusion, I'm suggesting similar managers could have got the results Trap did for the Euros, at a lot less money probably.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 13/02/2013 at 1:51 PM.
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I think a lot of people forget about that match in Yerevan. On paper perhaps Armenia were not that strong, but if you scratch the surface of that team you will find that the goalkeeper and several of the attacking players have all played a considerable number of games in the Russian top flight, and Mkhitaryan is one of the best players at Shakhtar a team that has been getting to the knockout stages of the CL a few times. They might not be one of the strongest teams in Europe, but they are not minnows akin to San Marino or Andorra. We were also playing them on a hot afternoon in the dog days of a warm summer, it was a match in which a lot of our players laboured and struggled, but we held out and were the only team to win in Yerevan that campaign - even Russia only drew there. I think at the very best we might have sneaked a draw there with Kerr in charge.
There is a mode of thinking that 4 years (2 tournament cycles) is the maximum for any international manager. Kerr falls slightly in between but it was clear things were stagnating under him. Staunton was a huge step backwards though.
What galled me is that Kerr never got that chance. He took over a doomed campaign in the first instance and we didn't achieve what we should have in the second but it was a tough group as has been mentioned above.
I think if there was a better manager, say a Trap, waiting in the wings then I could see the sense in getting rid, but there wasn't and we ended up with the shoiteshow afterwards.
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By all accounts Kerr had lost the dressing room, to use a terrible football cliché. I think he showed enough to suggest he wasn't the man to take the team forward, although Staunton was undoubtedly worse.
When cases are made against Trap about upsetting players its said the players need to man up or they are not that good anyway, when in Kerr's case its a legitimate reason to get rid of him.
Hear what you say, but was at that game;Armenia were extremely mediocre and deserved nothing from that match.
It's to their credit that they massively improved over the course of their campaign.
Whilst Ireland probably got worse, in part due to Trap's defensive tactics.
Though Kerr/Staunton would have been worse still...
Allegedly.
Wonder will we be saying the same about the Kazak away result as we were/are about the Armenia away result?!?
Not likely im afraid.
Take the performance at the Euros away from Trap, his record is pretty damn good. The reason the Euros was such a disappointment was the incredible unbeaten run we had gone on before that and how we defensively were extremely solid. Both were horribly absent in Poland.
The other big difficulty with Trap is communication and some baffling and rarely justified squad and team selections.
Ian Harte on the Kelly-Trap disagreement: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29077137.html
That brings him onto the subject of Stephen Kelly, his new Reading colleague, who felt the force of a public Trapattoni dressing-down in the aftermath of the Poland game earlier this month. With reference to a row ahead of the Faroe Islands game in October, the Italian insinuated that Kelly was seeking demands that he would start before reporting for international duty. It prompted the mild-mannered Dubliner to release a furious statement accusing Trapattoni of defaming his character. The FAI also took a dim view of the manager's comments and Harte is unequivocal on the matter. In his mind, it should be the final straw.
"It's a joke," he says. "I've seen Stephen Kelly's phone, pretty much every one of the Reading lads have seen it, and we're thinking: 'What's going on'? If the press were to see the full text, that would be the end of Trap. That would be the end of Giovanni Trapattoni.
"Stephen has a text from Trapattoni saying, 'We're going to rest you and bring young lads into the squad.'
"Stephen says: 'Well, I'm a bit disappointed, I would love to come over and play in the game, but I understand if you want to do that, you're the manager. I accept your decision. I want to come and play.'
"Stephen was told a young lad would be playing and then he puts Paul McShane at right-back. He (Kelly) is devastated and then the manager comes out and says what he does in the press. It's hard for Stephen to respond because he's pretty much digging his own grave.
"Disagreements happen in dressing-rooms. Players can fall out with managers. People get on the phone or meet up and sort it out, nip it in the bud. It doesn't need to come out in the press. It's forgotten about. But this thing with Stephen? It's crazy.
"Look," he continues, "you look at what Trapattoni has done in his career and all the trophies he's won and you can't question that. It's an amazing record. But we are where we are. That's the past.
"When I was in League One, people weren't talking about the fact I'd played in the Champions League. And I couldn't make an argument for being in the Ireland squad then. Things have changed for me over the past couple of years and you've got to move with the times. He should have gone after Euro 2012 and given someone else a chance, but then I don't know if it would have cost too much money to pay him off. I just think people need to start standing up to this. It's a disgrace what's happening."
Well this is it, would Brian Kerr have picked Darren O'Dea, Paul McShane and Paul Green for the Euro squad ahead of Marc Wilson and Wes Hoolahan?
There's no advantage to Trap being in control of the dressing room if he's picking a Toronto FC defender against Germany.
Marc Wilson has made 72 Premier League appearances for Stoke City in the past three seasons. He has three caps for Ireland. Darren O'Dea has 18 caps for Ireland. It's bizarre.
Ultimately what is Traps line of thought here? That he doesn't think Kelly is any good so he can't be bothered to correct the situation? I mean all of this could be solved so easily no?
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kelly ist schwach wie eine flasche leer!
was erlaube kelly!?
I'd be upset too if Paul McShane was picked ahead of me. We can hardly be surprised. Trap has a long history of falling out and publicly abusing players at most of the clubs he has managed. He is a terrible man manager which is very important for a national team coach. He spends very little time with the players yet still has managed to have fallen out with so many of them. I wouldn't blame Stephan Kelly one bit. If it was an isolated incident maybe he would have a case to answer but the fact that Trap has treated many players badly in his time managing Ireland should say it all really.
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