Football Rules, okay!

[BonnieShels]

I could have sworn there was a thread on it already but I can't find it but the IFAB are to clarify the offside rule this week.

The emphasis is to revolve about what "interfering with play" is.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/world...ified-by-fifa/

[DannyInvincible]

I'm of the opinion that any player on the field of play is "interfering" in the sense that, no matter where he is positioned, he will still inevitably influence the decisions and movement of both his team-mates and his opponents, who are all part of play/the game.

To use an example, Defoe may not have touched the ball here, but he was still in an offside position and influenced Johnny Evans' movement for the ball which led to Evans scoring an own-goal:



The goal stood after the linesman initially flagged it as off-side, but I don't know how one could claim Defoe didn't interfere with play there. Possession of the ball isn't the only element of play in a game of football.

[BonnieShels]

I completely agree.

The rule just needs to be simplified and left at that. As soon as it's implemented thusly you won't have players hanging in "offside" positions and "not interfering with play"

"Any player (or part of a player) who, when the ball is played toward the opponents goal-line, has only one defender between him and the opponents goal-line is deemed to be in an offside position."

Leave no room for interpretation and just leave it at that.

[BonnieShels]

Came across an interesting factoid tonight whilst amongst other things checking out things on David Ervine which lead to this...

In 1890, Mr. William McCrum from Milford, Co Armagh, Ireland gave football the penalty kick, arguably world sports' most dramatic rule.

McCrum's idea for penalising foul play around goalmouths rocked the Victorian establishment that ran football. The English FA regarded it as a contradiction in terms: only gentlemen played soccer and gentlemen didn't cheat, while the press angrily condemned the "Irishman's motion" as a "death sentence" for the game.

Although an Irish League founder and one of their key administrators, the young goalkeeper got little or no credit and the penalty rule passed into history as a happy accident. But then who could have foretold just how important the kick would become, going on to decide the outcome of some of the world's greatest cup competitions.

http://homeofpenaltykick.com/

So it seems the penalty kick is an Irish invention.

Pity we're crap at them.

[DannyInvincible]

Wasn't that mentioned in 'Green Is the Colour', or was that something to do with the introduction of the off-side rule also being heavily influenced by the exploits of some free-scoring, mooching Irishman?

[BonnieShels]

It might have been offside. I'm sure I never have heard of the penalty-kick story.

My brother has the dvds so I'll check em out if no one beats me to it.

[DannyInvincible]

Indeed, McCrum's penalty kick proposal was mentioned in the first episode of 'Green Is the Colour' at 23:55:



I also spotted in this image of a working-class Belfast street what appears to be an Irish tricolour near the top-right amongst a sea of Union flags waving from individual houses:



Not sure what year it was, but thought it interesting nonetheless.

[BonnieShels]

It could be a French flag.

Re McCrum, I totally forgot about that. Cheers.

[DannyInvincible]

It might have been offside.

Billy McCracken was the player I was thinking of, although he was a cunning defender rather than a mooching forward: http://thatsireland.wordpress.com/20...-offside-trap/

I'll retract my scurrilous and sloppy accusation!

Nobody understands the offside law, except you, the other fans of your team, and Billy McCracken, the Belfast man who pioneered the offside trap. In 1908 he had demanded that Irish internationals get the same £10 match fee as their English counterparts. The Irish FA banned him for life, but relented twelve years later. By then his tactical brain was changing English football.

The First Off-Side Rule

Football and rugby evolved from similar rules. Players always had to stay behind the ball, or else they were ‘off their own side’. You can still see this in rugby, as players form a diagonal line running forwards while passing the ball sideways or backwards along the line.

Early football was like this. One player dribbled the ball forwards and, when he could get no further, he passed it sideways or backwards. This law stifled the game, and it was relaxed in 1848. Now a player could move ahead of the ball, but only if there were at least three opponents between him and the other goal-line.

The First Off-Side Trap

Sixty years later, as football returned after the First World War, Billy McCracken perfected the off-side trap while playing with Newcastle United. He and his fellow full-back would move forward diagonally, with McCracken ahead of his team-mate.

When an opponent passed the ball to a striker, McCracken would rush past the striker, leaving him in an off-side position. Even if the trap was mistimed, the striker still had to beat the other full-back and the goalkeeper.

The trap infuriated opposing fans, who jeered McCracken and pelted him with fruit and, once, a pipe. But it impressed opposing defenders, who copied it. The tactic became widespread, forcing a change in the law.

The New Off-Side Rule

From 1925, a player only had to keep two opponents, not three, between him and the other goal-line. The off-side trap was now more risky, as if it was mistimed the striker now had only the goalkeeper to beat.

Defenders now had to play more square to each other, and stay closer to their own goal. Attackers could now play longer through balls. The impact was immediate, as goals increased by almost a third the next season.
This was the biggest change to the off-side law until 1977, when the International Football Association Board officially removed the hyphen from the word, changing it from ‘off-side’ to ‘offside’.

He was mentioned towards the end of the radio snippet AB posted in the eligibility thread: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/813/367857/

[BonnieShels]

Goal-line tech to be in place for WC2014

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...for-world-cup/

[gormacha]

"Any player (or part of a player) who, when the ball is played toward the opponents goal-line, has only one defender between him and the opponents goal-line is deemed to be in an offside position."

Leave no room for interpretation and just leave it at that.

So, back to the "old" rule then, effectively? And I assume you mean two defenders?

[BonnieShels]

So, back to the "old" rule then, effectively? And I assume you mean two defenders?

No. If there are 2 defending players between him and the goal line he is onside.

The goalkeeper is a defending player don't forget.

[DannyInvincible]

I think reverting back to the old law is a preferable course of action. Every player on the field is interacting with play/the flow, direction and movement of the game in some form or another, whether he's in possession of the actual ball or not. The Defoe-Evans example demonstrates this perfectly. As much certainty as is possible in the application of the rule is what is required.

[osarusan]

a) Interfering with play: This involves touching the ball, whether the touch is deliberate or accidental

b) Interfering with an opponent: This involves verbally distracting or distracting the opponent in any other way, being in the way of an opponent or obscuring the opponent's vision

c) Gaining an advantage by being in that position: Playing the ball from a rebound or deflection off an opponent or the goal posts/crossbar

FIFA have clarified what A means:

the International Board has provided detailed definitions of the ways in which a player may become involved in active play (Law 11, International Board Decision 2). On August 17, 2005, a Circular from the FIFA further clarified some of the confusion regarding whether "touching the ball" was a requirement for "interfering with play" (emphasis added):
A player in an offside position may be penalized before playing or touching the ball if, in the opinion of the referee, no other teammate in an onside position has the opportunity to play the ball.
If an opponent becomes involved in the play and if, in the opinion of the referee, there is potential for physical contact, the player in the offside position shall be penalized for interfering with an opponent.

[DannyInvincible]

Does that mean the Evans' own goal should have been ruled out then? I'm still not sure.

The fact it's left to "the opinion of the referee" is where the uncertainty lies. He has to subjectively presume or prejudge a potential event that has yet to occur. Reversion to the more objective old rule would leave no such room for ambiguity.

I still have a fundamental problem with FIFA's definition of "interfering with play", as I've outlined above. It doesn't make logical sense, for me anyway, in that a game of football is contested between two sides of eleven players for 90 minutes. All players on the field of play are involved, or interfering, at all times - not merely those touching the ball - be they dictating the movement and positioning of their own team-mates or the players of the opposing team. However, them's the rules.

[osarusan]

Does that mean the Evans' own goal should have been ruled out then? I'm still not sure.

In my opinion, yes. There was the potential for contact with the ball, and his proximity to the ball influenced (interfered with) Evans' actions.

It was Cisse and not Defoe, btw.

[DannyInvincible]

Sorry, not sure where I got Defoe out of.

Anyway, I agree with you, but that clearly wasn't the opinion of the referee, so that makes it impossible to judge whether or not the "correct" decision was made. There's no strict rule to which we can return in order to shed light on what would have been the "correct" decision; we just have to accept the subjective opinion of a referee. FIFA can attempt to clarify matters all they like, but do you see the problem with that and the vacuum of uncertainty it generates?

[osarusan]

I honestly think the most likely reason for the goal is that the referee forgot the clarification of the rule meaning that a player didn't need to touch the ball to be considered interfering with play.

[DannyInvincible]

Hmm, I dunno. He consulted the linesman at the time before over-ruling his flagging for offside and had about three of four players badgering him. You'd think some interaction there would have either touched on the clarification or triggered his memory. His job is to know the laws of play, after all.

[geysir]

No. If there are 2 defending players between him and the goal line he is onside.
The goalkeeper is a defending player don't forget.

There was a game some time ago, where the attacker was flagged offside when receiving the ball, he only had one defender in front of him, the goalie had gone walkabout. For a while I was baffled by the decision.
Usually we take it for granted the goalie doesn't matter because for the vast majority (99.9%?) of offside decisions, the goalie is between the attacking player and the goal.