Huge Game for our League

**gspain** · 14/09/2004, 3:37 PM

Shelbourne v Lille on Thursday is a massive massive game for the league.

While it would be fantastic to see Shels in the group stages of the UEFA Cup it is vital that they at least earn a draw in one of the 2 games.

A draw would give Shels a club coefficient - only available from this round of the UEFA Cup onwards and the Group stages of the CL. This would guarantee Shels a seeded place in the 1st round draw next year assuming they win the league.

They would keep this club coefficient for 5 years and this would be effectively enough to guarantee seeding any year in the enxt 5 if they qualify for the champions league.

Furthermore if Shels get a result and fail to win the league they will still push us up 2 places in the coefficient table - ahead of Liechtenstein and Belarus thus ensuring our champions get seeded next summer.

As full points are now available from this stage onwards any result would also count as double so if Shels were to draw on Thursday they would earn a club coefficient and earn double the points for Ireland that they did by drawing with Depor at Lansdowne.

Coefficient Points - CL qualifying rounds and UEFA prelims

1 point per win 0.5 per draw divided by number of participating clubs - eg each draw worth .166 and each win worth .333

Coefficient Points - CL Group stages and UEFA 1st round onwards

2 points per win 1 per draw divided by number of participating clubs - eg each draw worth .333 and each win worth .666

**Slash/ED** · 14/09/2004, 6:09 PM

Wanting to see an Irish side do well in Europe? Prepare for a backlash for controversial sentiments like that...

**HarpoJoyce** · 14/09/2004, 7:05 PM

Yes, its another oppurtunity for Shelbourne to get another nil-nil draw at home.

However, Shelbourne and other eircom League clubs have every right to expect to play 8 (eight) and more matches a season in Europe.
That's Europe CL and UEFA Cup where the actually co-efficient counts.

There's plenty of matches out there every year and the eircom League can have a piece of it. Especially, in my opinion, as European football has been pretty poor for a long time.

thecorner · 14/09/2004, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by gspain

Shelbourne v Lille on Thursday is a massive massive game for the league.

While it would be fantastic to see Shels in the group stages of the UEFA Cup

eh......................NO

**Colm** · 14/09/2004, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by xtreme rebel

As always I'll support whatever team Shelbourne are playing....no matter what the competition.

Same here.
I'll support ANY team over Shelbourne, no matter who they are or where they come from.
Fcuk Shels and their corrupt thugs.

**A face** · 14/09/2004, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

Wanting to see an Irish side do well in Europe? Prepare for a backlash for controversial sentiments like that...

Its not like that man ... !! it is all the bigger picture and nothing else !!

**LFC in Exile** · 15/09/2004, 8:29 AM

I do hope Shels get through to the Group matches. In fact if Shels won the bloody thing I'd be delighted.

It does help the likes of Limerick and Kilkenny if eL clubs do well in Europe - but there may not be a sudden dramatic increase in gates. However, any improvement in the standards of the eL (brought about by euro money or whatever) is good for the league as a whole. Anything that raises the profile of the eL is good for all clubs in encouraging bar stoolers to go outside. Also, the financial return possible from eL success in europe makes it a more attractive proposition for investors, particularly in clubs with a large potential fan base but poor current structures (Limerick?).

I do have a big problem though with the behaviour of Shels over this fixture. The switch to 5.30 did not suit most fans, who were not given a second thought when the French TV money dictated a ridiculous kick-off time. Now that French TV has backed out the club and the FAI are looking for the same fans who were shafted with the kick-off time to come out in force. Just think that was lousy.

In any event - c'mon Shels.

**Bald Student** · 15/09/2004, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by LFC in Exile

I do have a big problem though with the behaviour of Shels over this fixture.

I agree. I supported Shels in all the other rounds but I won't in this one. The way Ollie ignored the supporters when French TV waved their money was wrong. If Shels want my support they can treat us fans with a little more respect.

**eoinh** · 15/09/2004, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by thecorner

eh......................NO

If you read Gspains' post, and took it in properly maybe you might understand why shels getting a result is vitally important for all eircom league clubs. It potentially means getting easier draws for all clubs, progressing more rounds and meeting the likes of Deportivo on a fairly regular basis. It increases the revenue stream for Cork City and all LOI clubs meaning better grounds, better facilities, better players and hopefully more fans.

If you want to seee clubs like Lazio at the cross cheer on shels.

No to mediocrity!

**TheSaint2002** · 15/09/2004, 11:14 AM

Lets not be naive here against Depor it was a different gravy it was the possibility of seeing an Irish club take a place in the greatest club tournament in the world but against Lille they can shag off at the end of the day us fools saying come on Shels and all they will do with the money from this Euro run is buy players to starve the league of any competitiveness lets be honest it has already started with them signing the likes of Juan Sara how many other clubs in the league could have signed him? Enough is enough I say, not that I want to see them hammered but a graceful exit would be acceptable.

**A face** · 15/09/2004, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by THESAINT2002

all they will do with the money from this Euro run is buy players to starve the league of any competitiveness lets be honest it has already started with them signing the likes of Juan Sara how many other clubs in the league could have signed him?

This is exactly my point ... but i didn't want to direct it at Shels (for fear people would think it were sour grapes etc.) ..... If we want the league as a whole league, not just one club to be competitive then it is better if all/most/majority of clubs are in and around the same level, impossible to do i know but that does mean we shouldn't want it.

Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??

Answer this first and then give your abuse !!

**Slash/ED** · 15/09/2004, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by A face

Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??

Answer this first and then give your abuse !!

That has nothing to do with European money though and even without any european money that would be the case.

If an EL side can make the group stages of the UEFA cup then there's no reason why another EL side can't make it. Afterall, we get more than one UEFA cup space. Say if Shels won the league this season aad made the UEFA cup group stages and Cork finished second, there's absolutley no reason whatsoever that Cork couldn't then go and make the UEFA cup group stages themselves (In fact, it will be easier for Cork to do it if this turned out to be the case, due to the fact they would have better seeding because of Shels results). If we keep hopeing our other clubs will fail then we'll forever be medicore, somebody has to make a break through and hopefully (As I'm biased) it'll be Shels in a few weeks time, then it's up to the other EL clubs to match it and beat it and there's no reason why they can't. They can either sit around and moan about how Shels have it easy and will dominate the league from here on in or they can try and make the break through in Europe themselves.

**tiktok** · 15/09/2004, 1:29 PM

I think the points Slash/Ed and eoinh made are perfectly valid.

I hope Shels do get through, but after the farce on scheduling the game, I hope they don't get their 12,000 attendance needed to break even on cost.

**A face** · 15/09/2004, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

If we keep hopeing our other clubs will fail then we'll forever be medicore, somebody has to make a break through and hopefully (As I'm biased) it'll be Shels in a few weeks time.

I know what your saying and agree with it BUT i'd rather if every eL club were getting good television money, better crowds etc. to allow them to compete on a more even stage.

Can you understand my point about the league not being competitive if it were just two teams at the top every year for the next 40 years ?

**eoinh** · 15/09/2004, 1:52 PM

i think A Face that the situation in Scotland is unique. That league is driven by a religious divide in Glasgow that is unique. It isnt really football related at all.

Who wants all clubs playing at the same level if its the crap level?

In Cork we have our strengths - the only big club for miles around (aplogies to ramblers), big sponsership, big support and a pride in a LOI team that other cities and towns in Ireland cant match. Shels dont have any of those qualities (except for the sponsers probably).

Shels do well this season - we get seeded in europe. If we get our act together we can qualify for the all-ireland competition which is bringing a lot of exposure and money to clubs.

**Slash/ED** · 15/09/2004, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by A face

I know what your saying and agree with it BUT i'd rather if every eL club were getting good television money, better crowds etc. to allow them to compete on a more even stage.

Can you understand my point about the league not being competitive if it were just two teams at the top every year for the next 40 years ?

Yeah, but, you have to say that the only way to get good television money, better crowds etc for the whole league is for European results to improve. I don't think shels getting into the UEFA cup group stages this year would lead to a non competitive league unless the other sides let them dominate. There's no reason why Cork, Bohs and a few others can't match or beat Shels results in Europe and the money from the Setanta cup should mean there's plenty going around to more than one side and we can all start getting to this stage, and further, in Europe regularly.

I agree with you that a non competitive league would be rubbish but I really don't think that will happen if Shels beat Lille, for a start the money in the UEFA cup is nothing on the money in the champions league and since we get more than one entry to the UEFA cup, unlike the champions league, there's no reason why other sides can't get to the same level consistently or get even further if they're run well.

Sheridan · 15/09/2004, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by A face

Just look at the Scottish league ...... when is the last time a team other than Rangers and Sell-Thick won the title and when will be the next time another team wins it ??

Answer this first and then give your abuse !!

I'll give it a try, although it's been done more articulately by others above, and I'm probably wasting my time with some of the knuckle-draggers on this thread (not you, Face.)

CelGers - bad example, unique situation. Rosenborg - bad example, unique situation.

To put this to bed for once and for all, I spent ten minutes trawling through rsssf.com looking for teams of Shels' calibre that have competed in the Champions League group stages, and their subsequent domestic form. I left out plenty of sides that could have been included (e.g. Lille, Lierse) because I deemed their parent leagues too strong to make a valid comparison.

92-93
IFK Gotheburg
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 3 (94, 95, 96)

94/95
Hajduk Split
Subsequent Croatian championships won: 2 (2001, 2004)

95/96
Aalborg
Subsequent Danish championships won: 1 (1999)

96/97
Widzew Lodz
Subsequent Polish championships won: 0

97/98
1.FC Kosice
Subsequent Slovak championships won: 0

98/99
Brondby
Subsequent Danish championships won: 1 (2002)
HJK Helsinki
Subsequent Finnish championships won: 2 (2002, 2003)

99/2000
AIK
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 0
Molde
Subsequent Norwegian championships won: 0
Maribor
Subsequent Slovenian championships won: 3 (2001, 2002, 2003)

00/01
Shakhtar Donetsk
Subsequent Ukrainian championships won: 1 (2002)
Helsingborg
Subsequent Swedish championships won: 0

02/03
Maccabi Haifa
Subsequent Israeli championships won: 1 (2004)

Conclusion:
The knock-on effect of Champions League qualification is overstated. The three teams most comparable to Shelbourne (Aalborg, Kosice and Maccabi Haifa) have won a combined total of two domestic championships in the combined fifteen seasons since their CL qualification. If HJK Helsinki's participation led to their two recent championships, it was by way of a very delayed reaction - FC Haka won three-in-a-row from HJK's CL season onwards.

Situations such as those in Norway and Slovenia are anomalous, and indicative of local, as much as continental, factors. Both Rosenborg and Maribor had been in total control of their domestic leagues in the years immediately preceding their first Champions League appearances.

Another point that people are missing is this; if Shelbourne are good enough to qualify for the final stages of the Champions League, they should be good enough to dominate the Premier Division for three-to-five years with that team alone. Having seen them last Monday, I'm not entirely sure this isn't the case anyway.

**Slash/ED** · 15/09/2004, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Molde
Subsequent Norwegian championships won: 0

Not only that but aren't they also battling relegation now? I'm pretty sure I heard they're a bottom half club now anyway.

Great post btw, I think that shows that an Irish side making the break through in Europe wont lead to the doom and gloom and non competitive league that some people think it will.

**eoinh** · 15/09/2004, 2:02 PM

Perfect reply sheridan. Also HJK Helsinki i think have been in the champions league and didnt go on to dominate in the league. For many of these clubs the stress of competing in the CL means that their league form goes to pieces while they are taking part and they end up losing their domestic championship.