The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[BonnieShels]

Was just reading about Willie Hay and it got me thinking about those who fail to grasp or acknowledge that national identity can transcend territorial boundaries. I've encountered many sceptical unionists doubting or disputing the validity of the Irish national identity of nationalists from north of the border; for example, "James McClean is Northern Irish!" they will assert, as they attempt to suggest he's "not really Irish". Willie Hay is a Donegal-born Protestant/unionist who possesses solely an Irish passport for functional purposes because he is not entitled to a British one. In spite of this, his own cultural identity is very much British and that is how he personally identifies, as is his human right, along with others from his community in east Donegal. Would those same unionists who dispute the Irishness of northern nationalists (in spite of formal and cross-border state recognition) apply the same standard to Willie Hay and dismiss his obviously-proud and deep-rooted sense of Britishness as being similarly bogus?

At this stage surely Willie is a possessor of a Passport stating that he's a subject?

If alone with residency; what about his parents being born pre-1949 and therefore entitled to a UK passport by right and him therefore by virtue of that?

[DannyInvincible]

I'm sure Willie has exhausted all possible avenues. He had no official recognition - be that full British citizenship or British subject status - as recently as July of 2011 anyway and would have been required to fork out over £800 for naturalisation, according to the Belfast Telegraph, so unless something has changed since then...

I think any Ireland-born applicant has to have been born prior to 1949 themselves; subject status cannot be transmitted via descent, as far as I can make out, so a parent's pre-1949 birth would not confer any right to apply for subject status.

[BonnieShels]

I'm sure Willie has exhausted all possible avenues. He had no official recognition - be that full British citizenship or British subject status - as recently as July of 2011 anyway and would have been required to fork out over £800 for naturalisation, according to the Belfast Telegraph, so unless something has changed since then...

I think any Ireland-born applicant has to have been born prior to 1949 themselves; subject status cannot be transmitted via descent, as far as I can make out, so a parent's pre-1949 birth would not confer any right to apply for subject status.

Are you sure?

All things being equal: My maternal grandfather was born in 1915 in Dublin which was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, my maternal grandmother was born in 1928 in Dublin which was part of the Irish Free State. Both were entitled to the citizenship of both the UK and Ireland by my reckoning.

My mother therefore as a child of 2 British citizens (they didn't claim as such, but for the sake of this let's say they did) would surely have been granted citizenship.

The above scenario I am sure is replicated throughout Ireland.

I appreciate that Willie obviously has exhausted all avenues but it seems strange to me.

[peadar1987]

I think your parents have to have claimed it before they died for it to be valid. Not sure about that though, so I could be wrong.

[Gather round]

Was just reading about Willie Hay and it got me thinking about those who fail to grasp or acknowledge that national identity can transcend territorial boundaries. I've encountered many sceptical unionists doubting or disputing the validity of the Irish national identity of nationalists from north of the border; for example, "James McClean is Northern Irish!" they will assert, as they attempt to suggest he's "not really Irish"

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

[BonnieShels]

I think your parents have to have claimed it before they died for it to be valid. Not sure about that though, so I could be wrong.

My grandparents would have had to claim it. Then my mother would have had to claim it before my grandparents died.

I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

Completely agree. But that is the wont of a Super Duper.

[Gather round]

But that is the wont of a Super Duper

Beams are gonna blind me, but I won't feel (red white and) blue...

[BonnieShels]

Beams are gonna blind me, but I won't feel (red white and) blue...

I was sick and tired of every Tim, when I called you last night from Glasgow.
All I do is bleat and strip and sing, wishing every Tim was the last Tim...

[DannyInvincible]

Are you sure?

All things being equal: My maternal grandfather was born in 1915 in Dublin which was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, my maternal grandmother was born in 1928 in Dublin which was part of the Irish Free State. Both were entitled to the citizenship of both the UK and Ireland by my reckoning.

My mother therefore as a child of 2 British citizens (they didn't claim as such, but for the sake of this let's say they did) would surely have been granted citizenship.

The above scenario I am sure is replicated throughout Ireland.

Does this provide clarity?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...lic_of_Ireland

British Nationality Act 1948

As a result of the British Nationality Act 1948, Irish citizens ("citizens of Eire") lost British-subject status automatically on 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of Britain & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that Ireland did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949.

However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects.

Applications had to be based on:

• previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government;
• possession of a British passport; or
• associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, British mandated territory or British trust territory.

No provision was made for the retention of British nationality by Irish citizens born in the Republic of Ireland after 1948. British subject status, as distinct from citizenship of the UK & Colonies, was not transmissible by descent.

For the purpose of the 1948 legislation, the United Kingdom was defined based on its post-1922 borders. Hence, birth in the Republic of Ireland before 1922 was not sufficient in itself to confer UK & Colonies citizenship. Persons born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 became Citizens of the UK & Colonies by descent in British law on 1 January 1949 if they had a father born in the United Kingdom or a place which was a colony at that date (provided father was married to the person's mother).

In common with those from the Commonwealth, Irish citizens resident in the United Kingdom, whether they held British subject status or not, were entitled to apply for registration as a citizen of the UK & Colonies after one year's residence. By the 1970s this time period had increased to five years.

Ireland Act 1949

The United Kingdom's Ireland Act 1949 came into force on 18 April 1949 and recognised the end of the Irish state's status as a British dominion, which had been effected under the Irish parliament's Republic of Ireland Act 1948 which was brought into force in 1949. The 1949 Act provided that "citizens of the Republic of Ireland" (the new British nomenclature adopted under the Act) would continue to be treated on a par with those from Commonwealth countries and would not be treated as aliens in the United Kingdom.

Section 5 of the 1949 Act conferred Citizenship of the UK and Colonies (CUKC) on any Irish-born person meeting all the following criteria:

• was born before 6 December 1922 in what became the Republic of Ireland;
• was domiciled outside the Republic of Ireland on 6 December 1922;
• was ordinarily resident outside the Republic of Ireland from 1935 to 1948; and
• was not registered as an Irish citizen under Irish legislation.

British Nationality Act 1981

The British Nationality Act 1981, in force from 1 January 1983:

• retained the facility for those born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 to register as British subjects (section 31)
• provided that Irish citizens, in common with those from the Commonwealth, would be required to apply for naturalisation as British citizens rather than registration after five years residence in the UK (or three years if married, or in a Civil Partnership to a British citizen).

British subjects retained the right to apply for registration as a British citizen after 5 years residence in the UK.

Access to British citizenship for Irish citizens

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after 5 years in the UK.

Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose their Irish citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.

I'm not certain. I'll have to give it a proper read over later.

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

Nationalism can mean different things for different people. For some, it amounts merely to a cultural identification with the Irish national identity, whilst, for others, it represents an ideal with political connotations; an aspiration for Irish unity independent of Britain. There are people who identify with the Irish national identity in the north who'd be content to remain within the UK. Olé Olé may well recognise their Irish identity but might dispute their credentials if they proclaimed themselves to be nationalists.

I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

Perhaps, although not every British-identifying dweller/native of east Donegal is a well-salaried career politician. Hay's story made the news because of his public profile, but he'll not be the only Laggan native who feels culturally handicapped by this lack of official recognition. It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost. No doubt, with parity of esteem and all that in mind, he wonders why he should have to fork out £860 for his identity to be formally recognised (through what he might perceive to be the "less authentic/pure" process of naturalisation) when members of the nationalist community across the border (the mirror image of his Laggan community, albeit more numerous in their minority status) can have their identity formally acknowledged from birth. He obviously feels he was born British and seeks recognition of that.

[geysir]

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

What Ole Ole suggested and what you understand are 2 entirely different things.
Ole Ole does not suggest that a nationalist can't be a 'proper' nationalist and represent NI at the same time. Their 'proper' nationalist credentials are not at all questioned by Ole Ole, a nationalist player's 'soul remains intact' in an IFA shirt. It is just a question whether that nationalist integrity is regarded as represented or not, in the IFA shirt?

Ole Ole wrote

but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

[Gather round]

If someone is a nationalist...yet pulls on the NI jersey, can they really be deemed nationalist?

What Ole Ole suggested and what you understand are 2 entirely different things

Aye, sorry about that. I don't have your impressive ability to read others' minds, and so have to respond to what they actually say. Even if it ain't what they meant to say. Is it a skill you learned from reading CB's poems?

Olé Olé may well recognise their Irish identity but might dispute their credentials if they proclaimed themselves to be nationalists

Nice sidestep.

It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost

No, it's a publicity stunt. Willie doesn't want his neighbors to become British (which presumably they'd be much more likely to do if it cost £80 rather than £860), as it would lose him some imagined moral high ground.

[DannyInvincible]

How so?

And why do you perceive Seamus Heaney to be a bigot exactly?

[geysir]

A culchie bigot, to be more exact?

[Olé Olé]

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

Aye, sorry about that. I don't have your impressive ability to read others' minds, and so have to respond to what they actually say. Even if it ain't what they meant to say. Is it a skill you learned from reading CB's poems?

Reading those comments, I just can't help but think why McGinn doesn't just abstain from playing for the North. If it's only a game of football then why doesn't he get these same mates around for a game of 5 a-side when he makes the trip home to Tyrone? Players might want to receive international recognition, but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

I can't help but wonder what fuels Michael O'Neill to whisper into the ear of these types of players. Is he seeking to have the best players at his disposal in a calculated fashion for the interests of his career? Or does he simply Northern Irish and views himself as such?

That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round. Geysir didn't quite read my mind, I think he more managed to apply some sense of logic in his apprehension of what I was saying. Pity you didn't exercise the same approach.

I did not say that McClean could not be nationalist if he played for NI. I was attempting to contextualize how someone like McGinn or McClean would view themselves as nationalist and support Ireland, and by deduction, view Irish as their nationality. The correlation between this self-perception and how they view pulling on the NI jersey seems to be irrelevant to them, because both seemed to view themselves as nationalists first and NI footballers second- they have clearly expressed as much in their comments.

My comment most expressly outlines that McGinn and McClean are/were nationalists playing for NI, not that their nationalism is in any way compromised by playing for NI. You are completely interpreting my comment backwards and drawing an abstract conclusion.

This whole issue is something that has little relevance to my existence, given that I have barely been in the North and am too young to remember the Troubles. Nonetheless, it's an issue that interests me quite a bit. People who would be more associated with it drawing harsh and inaccurate inferences from my, what could be deemed, less-informed muses is rather tedious.

[Not Brazil]

My comment most expressly outlines that McGinn and McClean are/were nationalists playing for NI, not that their nationalism is in any way compromised by playing for NI.

Totally agree.

Irish nationalists are welcome to play for Northern Ireland, representing the Irish Football Association...if they are eligible.

[osarusan]

That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round. Geysir didn't quite read my mind, I think he more managed to apply some sense of logic in his apprehension of what I was saying. Pity you didn't exercise the same approach.

You are completely interpreting my comment backwards and drawing an abstract conclusion.

People who would be more associated with it drawing harsh and inaccurate inferences from my, what could be deemed, less-informed muses is rather tedious.

Here is what you posted, in full:

Interesting one that. The issue of identity gets kicked around here quite a lot. It's an interesting one to identify as nationalist but play for NI. Clearly, pragmatism and careerism provide the foundation for the decisions of the McEleney's et al. But is it really possible to identify as nationalist, whilst representing a side that in range of aspects, could be deemed completely at odds with your own beliefs? I've had a few posters jump down my throat when I make inferences like this, because this sort of attitude could be viewed as being contrary to someone's right to an identity.

If someone is a nationalist and supports Ireland, whilst living in the North, yet pull on the NI jersey, can they really be deemed nationalist? Does the term 'nationalist' not owe a significant degree of it's meaning and significance to the notion of a united Ireland? In which case someone saying their nationalist and pulling on the NI can't be referred to as such, no?

I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists.

[geysir]

I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists....... Here is what you posted, in full:

But, it's not in full is it?
What you quoted was a reply to a post written by (and where he asks some questions of) the last of the Fenian rebels, Predator.
Post 4920

Danny wrote in reply in post 4921

I would find it impossible to reconcile playing for NI with my own nationalist identity. But then, identity is a complex realm, professional football isn't my career and playing football for a certain team doesn't necessarily have to amount to an expression of that team's national identity for the player concerned.

then Ole asks more questions in post 4922

Players might want to receive international recognition, but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

Just a normal enough progression in a discussion.

[Gather round]

why do you perceive Seamus Heaney to be a bigot exactly?

50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.

It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost [for Willie Hay]

If it was, he could have sorted it out years ago- as a bit of local constituency casework- for his 'only Brit in the village' neighbors. Whether by persuading a Home Secretary to exempt those individuals, or getting the fee cut generally. I'm afraid I don't believe his claim to have exhausted all options. Instead, he's using the issue as a variant of the old 'Themmuns get everything'. I'd very much doubt he welcomes Marty McGuinness's help.

That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round

Er, I quoted what you wrote- asking a straightforward if provocative question, then answering it yourself. Do you mean 'literal'? I used a simple logic, ie assuming you meant what you wrote. Any pity should be that you didn't explain clearly what you meant to avoid any confusion.

I didn't interpret anything you or anyone wrote backwards. I quoted what you said, which wasn't given any extra context by what you said in your next post. My conclusion was actually the very opposite of abstract. Let alone harsh or inaccurate. If you find challenge to your comments on a public message board tedious sorry, but them's the breaks.

[geysir]

50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.

And that's it? your core reasons for justifying calling Heaney a culchie bigot?
Frivilous in the extreme.

[Gather round]

And that's it? your core reasons for justifying calling Heaney a culchie bigot?

I can do a bibliography, if you like?

Frivolous in the extreme

I'm impressed. That's like being dissed by Dana Scallon for being too Catholic.